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praise_yeshua said:
Pretty much sums up my position also.
Verses IFBs ignore when reading their Bibles.
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Pretty much sums up my position also.
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Here is a good one brought over from the FreeBird thread.
Isa 25:6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
Adam Clarke has a nice explanation of wines on the lees.
Seems Adam views this wine as alcoholic in his late 1700s view point.
I doubt if they had anything like the Women's Christian Temperance Union in his day.
He has this quote from Barry.
"Of wines on the lees ?Of old wines? - Hebrews lees; that is, of wines kept long on the lees. The word used to express the lees in the original signifies the preservers; because they preserve the strength and flavor of the wine. ?All recent wines, after the fermentation has ceased, ought to be kept on their lees for a certain time, which greatly contributes to increase their strength and flavor. Whenever this first fermentation has been deficient, they will retain a more rich and sweet taste than is natural to them in a recent true vinous state; and unless farther fermentation is promoted by their lying longer on their own lees, they will never attain their genuine strength and flavor, but run into repeated and ineffectual fermentations, and soon degenerate into a liquor of an acetous kind. All wines of a light and austere kind, by a fermentation too great, or too long continued, certainly degenerate into a weak sort of vinegar; while the stronger not only require, but will safely bear a stronger and often-repeated fermentation; and are more apt to degenerate from a defect than excess of fermentation into a vapid, ropy, and at length into a putrescent state.? Sir Edward Barry, Observations on the Wines of the Ancients, p. 9, 10."
Then he has this.
"Thevenot observes particularly of the Shiras wine, that, after it is refined from the lees, it is apt to grow sour.
?Il a beaucoup de lie; c?est pourquoi il donne puissemment dans la teste; et pour le rendre plus traitable on le passe par un chausse d?hypocras; apres quoi il est fort clair, et moins fumeux. Ils mettent ce vin dans des grandes jarres de terres qui tiennent dix ou douze jusqu?a quatorze carabas: mais quand l?on a entame une jarre, il faut la vuider au plutost, et mettre le vin qu?on en tire dans des bouteilles ou carabas; car si l?on y manque en le laissant quelque tems apres que la jarre est entamee il se gate et s?aigrit.? Voyages, Tom. 2 p. 245.
?It has much sediment, and therefore is intoxicating. In order to make it more mellow, they strain it through a hypocrates? sleeve, after which it is very clear and less heady. They lay up this wine in great earthen jars, which hold from ten to fourteen carabas: but when a jar is unstopped, it is necessary to empty it immediately, and put the wine into bottles, or carabas; for if it be left thus in the jar, it will spoil and become acid.?
The caraba, or girba, is a goat?s skin drawn off from the animal, having no apertures but those occasioned by the tail, the feet, and the neck. One opening is left, to pour in and draw off the liquor. This skin goes through a sort of tanning process, and is often beautifully ornamented, as is the case with one of these girbas now lying before me.
This clearly explains the very elegant comparison, or rather allegory, of Jeremiah, Jer 48:11; where the reader will find a remarkable example of the mixture of the proper with the allegorical, not uncommon with the Hebrew poets: -
?Moab hath been at ease from his youth,
And he hath settled upon his lees;
Nor hath he been drawn off from vessel to vessel,
Neither hath he gone into captivity:
Wherefore his taste remaineth in him,
And his flavor is not changed.?
Sir John Chardin?s MS. note on this place of Jeremiah is as follows:
?On change ainsi le vin de coupe en coupe en Orient; et quand on en entame une, il faut la vuider en petites coupes ou bouteilles, sans quoy il s?aigrit.?
?They change the wine from vessel to vessel in the east; and when they unstop a large one, it is necessary to empty it into small vessels, as otherwise it will grow sour.?
These aren't Women's Christian Temperance Union talking points.
Isa 25:6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
Adam Clarke has a nice explanation of wines on the lees.
Seems Adam views this wine as alcoholic in his late 1700s view point.
I doubt if they had anything like the Women's Christian Temperance Union in his day.
He has this quote from Barry.
"Of wines on the lees ?Of old wines? - Hebrews lees; that is, of wines kept long on the lees. The word used to express the lees in the original signifies the preservers; because they preserve the strength and flavor of the wine. ?All recent wines, after the fermentation has ceased, ought to be kept on their lees for a certain time, which greatly contributes to increase their strength and flavor. Whenever this first fermentation has been deficient, they will retain a more rich and sweet taste than is natural to them in a recent true vinous state; and unless farther fermentation is promoted by their lying longer on their own lees, they will never attain their genuine strength and flavor, but run into repeated and ineffectual fermentations, and soon degenerate into a liquor of an acetous kind. All wines of a light and austere kind, by a fermentation too great, or too long continued, certainly degenerate into a weak sort of vinegar; while the stronger not only require, but will safely bear a stronger and often-repeated fermentation; and are more apt to degenerate from a defect than excess of fermentation into a vapid, ropy, and at length into a putrescent state.? Sir Edward Barry, Observations on the Wines of the Ancients, p. 9, 10."
Then he has this.
"Thevenot observes particularly of the Shiras wine, that, after it is refined from the lees, it is apt to grow sour.
?Il a beaucoup de lie; c?est pourquoi il donne puissemment dans la teste; et pour le rendre plus traitable on le passe par un chausse d?hypocras; apres quoi il est fort clair, et moins fumeux. Ils mettent ce vin dans des grandes jarres de terres qui tiennent dix ou douze jusqu?a quatorze carabas: mais quand l?on a entame une jarre, il faut la vuider au plutost, et mettre le vin qu?on en tire dans des bouteilles ou carabas; car si l?on y manque en le laissant quelque tems apres que la jarre est entamee il se gate et s?aigrit.? Voyages, Tom. 2 p. 245.
?It has much sediment, and therefore is intoxicating. In order to make it more mellow, they strain it through a hypocrates? sleeve, after which it is very clear and less heady. They lay up this wine in great earthen jars, which hold from ten to fourteen carabas: but when a jar is unstopped, it is necessary to empty it immediately, and put the wine into bottles, or carabas; for if it be left thus in the jar, it will spoil and become acid.?
The caraba, or girba, is a goat?s skin drawn off from the animal, having no apertures but those occasioned by the tail, the feet, and the neck. One opening is left, to pour in and draw off the liquor. This skin goes through a sort of tanning process, and is often beautifully ornamented, as is the case with one of these girbas now lying before me.
This clearly explains the very elegant comparison, or rather allegory, of Jeremiah, Jer 48:11; where the reader will find a remarkable example of the mixture of the proper with the allegorical, not uncommon with the Hebrew poets: -
?Moab hath been at ease from his youth,
And he hath settled upon his lees;
Nor hath he been drawn off from vessel to vessel,
Neither hath he gone into captivity:
Wherefore his taste remaineth in him,
And his flavor is not changed.?
Sir John Chardin?s MS. note on this place of Jeremiah is as follows:
?On change ainsi le vin de coupe en coupe en Orient; et quand on en entame une, il faut la vuider en petites coupes ou bouteilles, sans quoy il s?aigrit.?
?They change the wine from vessel to vessel in the east; and when they unstop a large one, it is necessary to empty it into small vessels, as otherwise it will grow sour.?
These aren't Women's Christian Temperance Union talking points.
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John Gill a London Baptist Pastor of the 1700s has some interesting things to say about this verse.
Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
Now Gill says,
"it shall be a statute for ever throughout all your generations: even to the coming of the Messiah; and now under the Gospel dispensation, though wine in moderation is allowed Gospel ministers, yet they are not to be given to it; it is a shame to any Christian man to be drunk with wine, and more especially a minister, and still more so when in his service; see Eze 44:21.
Eze 44:21 Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.
Note they were not to drink wine when they went into the inner chamber, holy of holies, they might stumble and fall into the Ark of the Covenant and be killed.
Here Gill says,
"Neither shall any priest drink wine,.... That is, to excess, immoderately, so as to be inebriated with it, Lev 10:9, should not be given to it, and greedy of it, and drink it so as to disguise themselves: this is reckoned among the qualifications of a Gospel minister, 1Ti 3:3, otherwise it is not forbidden good men, or ministers of the word, to drink wine, for health's sake, and for the refreshment of nature, provided it is done in moderation, 1Ti 5:23, and particularly care should be taken that they drink it in such a manner,
when they enter into the inner court: to attend divine service, since immoderate drinking affects the memory; and such may forget the law and doctrines of the Lord they are to deliver or hear; and may put them upon saying and doing that which is improper and indecent: drunkenness in any Christian professor is abominable, especially in a minister of the word; and when it appears in his ministration, it is scandalous to the last degree."
I sure appears that the Women's Christian Temperance Union had not gotten to the good people of the churches of England, oh I guess they weren't around yet in the 1700s.
The WCTU was originally organized on December 23, 1873, in Hillsboro, Ohio, and officially declared at a national convention in Cleveland, Ohio in 1874.
Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
Now Gill says,
"it shall be a statute for ever throughout all your generations: even to the coming of the Messiah; and now under the Gospel dispensation, though wine in moderation is allowed Gospel ministers, yet they are not to be given to it; it is a shame to any Christian man to be drunk with wine, and more especially a minister, and still more so when in his service; see Eze 44:21.
Eze 44:21 Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.
Note they were not to drink wine when they went into the inner chamber, holy of holies, they might stumble and fall into the Ark of the Covenant and be killed.
Here Gill says,
"Neither shall any priest drink wine,.... That is, to excess, immoderately, so as to be inebriated with it, Lev 10:9, should not be given to it, and greedy of it, and drink it so as to disguise themselves: this is reckoned among the qualifications of a Gospel minister, 1Ti 3:3, otherwise it is not forbidden good men, or ministers of the word, to drink wine, for health's sake, and for the refreshment of nature, provided it is done in moderation, 1Ti 5:23, and particularly care should be taken that they drink it in such a manner,
when they enter into the inner court: to attend divine service, since immoderate drinking affects the memory; and such may forget the law and doctrines of the Lord they are to deliver or hear; and may put them upon saying and doing that which is improper and indecent: drunkenness in any Christian professor is abominable, especially in a minister of the word; and when it appears in his ministration, it is scandalous to the last degree."
I sure appears that the Women's Christian Temperance Union had not gotten to the good people of the churches of England, oh I guess they weren't around yet in the 1700s.
The WCTU was originally organized on December 23, 1873, in Hillsboro, Ohio, and officially declared at a national convention in Cleveland, Ohio in 1874.
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Well here is an interesting verse. There can be no doubt that the priests were told to offer alcoholic wine (strong wine) as part of the offering to the LORD. Who told the priests to use strong wine? God told them to use strong wine. Do not expect a sermon on this one anytime soon.
Num 28:7 And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.
Num 28:7 And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.
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bgwilkinson said:
Clearly this is talking about grape juice concentrate.
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It sure is convenient how when one wants to have wine mean grape juice they can pick and choose at will. Is wine grape juice here, no, the verse would not make sense if one were to say that grape juice is a mocker.
The cherry picking of definitions to meet ones own view point is a pernicious way to handle the Word of God. It is no wonder that people reject those teachers that teach drinking alcohol is a sin when they start to read the Bible for themselves.
Why not just be honest with people. Admit there is no prohibition on drinking alcohol. In fact in several places it is encouraged.
Pro 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
The cherry picking of definitions to meet ones own view point is a pernicious way to handle the Word of God. It is no wonder that people reject those teachers that teach drinking alcohol is a sin when they start to read the Bible for themselves.
Why not just be honest with people. Admit there is no prohibition on drinking alcohol. In fact in several places it is encouraged.
Pro 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
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Here's a good one that drunks love to ignore:
Jer 35:8 Thus have we obeyed the voice of Jonadab the son of Rechab our father in all that he hath charged us, to drink no wine all our days, we, our wives, our sons, nor our daughters;
God sure did commend the Rechabites through Jeremiah. At the same time, he condemned those who parse His words and ignore His commands.
I sure hate liquor. What a shame that lady who just drove into the Oklahoma State Homecoming parade didn't. But, I guess, in your opinion, she was just exercising her liberty. Yet at the end, wine does its mocking and strong drink rages on.
Jer 35:8 Thus have we obeyed the voice of Jonadab the son of Rechab our father in all that he hath charged us, to drink no wine all our days, we, our wives, our sons, nor our daughters;
God sure did commend the Rechabites through Jeremiah. At the same time, he condemned those who parse His words and ignore His commands.
I sure hate liquor. What a shame that lady who just drove into the Oklahoma State Homecoming parade didn't. But, I guess, in your opinion, she was just exercising her liberty. Yet at the end, wine does its mocking and strong drink rages on.
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You all knew this one was coming.
Pro 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
Clarke says,
"Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish - We have already seen, that inebriating drinks were mercifully given to condemned criminals, to render them less sensible of the torture they endured in dying. This is what was offered to our Lord; but he refused it. See note on Psa 104:15."
Pro 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
Clarke says,
"Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish - We have already seen, that inebriating drinks were mercifully given to condemned criminals, to render them less sensible of the torture they endured in dying. This is what was offered to our Lord; but he refused it. See note on Psa 104:15."
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PappaBear said:
This thread is for verses that IFBs like to ignore. Why don't you start a thread entitled, "Verses Drunks Like to Ignore"?
BTW welcome back. Your last post was September 16, 2014, 08:32:14 AM.
I am pleased that I might have had something to do with your return.
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bgwilkinson said:
Would you like for me to point you to the other thread for verses that Freebirds like to ignore where you didn't contribute to the thread, but instead took the opportunity to do the same thing that you're doing in this thread?
Do you know what hypocrisy is?
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ALAYMAN said:
When the topic devolved into Porn I stop reading it. So no don't point out anything on it, I will not be reading it.
Yes I recognize hypocrisy when I see it.
I am withholding comment.
bgwilkinson said:
wow! read the whole chapter.....i don't think it is encouraging giving the drink as much as it is saying leave the drinking to that group...........my goodness.....and yall say we nit pick scripture
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bgwilkinson said:
You commented with an opposing viewpoint on the first and second page of the other thread, waaaaaaaaaaaaay before (about a dozen pages) it devolved into any discussion about porn. At least try a little honesty before you try to deny the obviousness of your hypocrisy.
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Bo said:
nit pick scripture?, I think I said IFBs like to cherry pick verses that seem to support their own personal viewpoint.
yea...nit pic...cherry pick...whatever.....its happening ......right there^^^^^^^bgwilkinson said:
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Bo said:
You'll have to take that up with Adam Clarke when you get to heaven.
That is his comment.
bgwilkinson said:
....brother....when we get to heaven....we wont have no question....all the things that I believe that are incorrect I will know and same for you and all of us...its good that even thou we can debate and disagree on so much we still have salvation in common and we are all brothers and sisters in Christ!
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Bo said:bgwilkinson said:
its good that even thou we can debate and disagree on so much we still have salvation in common and we are all brothers and sisters in Christ!
Each person has the right to decide for himself the proper interpretation of the Bible. This is in direct contradistinction to many organized religions.
All believers have that right. We can celebrate our freedom in Christ.
It is so sad that many are bound by the phylacteries of
pharisaism.
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bgwilkinson said:
Well, I know your penchant for playing Jehoiakim with the penknife, but I wasn't aware the verse about "private interpretation" was one of those your "scholarship" had excised from God's preserved word. Praise God for a WHOLE Bible that includes all of 2Peter chapter 1. Aren't those phylacteries a bit constricting around your neck? Get some air, you'll feel better.
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PappaBear said:
Each person has the right to decide for himself the proper interpretation of the Bible. This is in direct contradistinction to many organized religions.
All believers have that right. We can celebrate our freedom in Christ.
Even PappaBear.
Still is so sad that many are bound by the phylacteries of
pharisaism.