Vision Forum Ministries Closing After Doug Phillips Admits "Inappropriate ..."

[rsc2a]

Are you designing a government healthcare website?

Doesn't the idea of "healthcare" kind of elevate the doctor's office above everyone else? Maybe we could arrange our chairs in a rough circle and decide as a community what is making people sick.

Now you know that specialization of knowledge and ability is a bad thing now. We all have the same gifts and abilities or something.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Very perceptive.

Yeah, kinda makes the point that there's a good reason we respect the expertise of professionals in any field of endeavour, doesn't it? No reason that church should be an exception.

Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,

you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.

I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Smellin Coffee]

you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.

[/quote]

So much for the Great Commission...

 

[Ransom]

Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,

Why don't you just explain what your point is, rather than assume I am going to interpret the Bible in exactly the same unbelieving way as you?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

[quote author=Smellin Coffee]

you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.

So much for the Great Commission...
[/quote]

Not really. One can be the mouthpiece and yet let God/Spirit teach through the words of Jesus:

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you....But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

One can instruct in the role of a brother instead of a role of authority.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,

Why don't you just explain what your point is, rather than assume I am going to interpret the Bible in exactly the same unbelieving way as you?

So Bible interpretation is relative. With that we agree.

Oh, my point. I believe God ordained the church to become a spiritual organism and not a religious organization.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,

Why don't you just explain what your point is, rather than assume I am going to interpret the Bible in exactly the same unbelieving way as you?

So Bible interpretation is relative. With that we agree.

The problem is, that with you, the Bible is relative....

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,

Why don't you just explain what your point is, rather than assume I am going to interpret the Bible in exactly the same unbelieving way as you?

So Bible interpretation is relative. With that we agree.

The problem is, that with you, the Bible is relative....

True. But in essence, it is relative to everybody's interpretation, yours included. Unless you preach against eating shellfish, counsel rape victims to marry their attackers, keep the Sabbath and demand women of your church wear head coverings.

 

[Mathew Ward]

Oh, my point. I believe God ordained the church to become a spiritual organism and not a religious organization.

Religion looks to control individuals under the guise of Christianity.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Oh, my point. I believe God ordained the church to become a spiritual organism and not a religious organization.

Religion looks to control individuals under the guise of Christianity.

I agree (assuming we are talking about American religion as opposed to "true religion" that James mentioned).

Whoever leads has the control. Hence, churches with various forms of government involving leadership (pastoral, elder-led, etc) exercise control, even if only in trace amounts. Not sure that is what Christ had in mind concerning HIS being the sole leader/instructor/shepherd.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Smellin Coffee]Oh, my point. I believe God ordained the church to become a spiritual organism and not a religious organization.[/quote]

This assumes that it cannot be both, something you have yet to show evidence of.

[quote author=Smellin Coffee]Whoever leads has the control. Hence, churches with various forms of government involving leadership (pastoral, elder-led, etc) exercise control, even if only in trace amounts. Not sure that is what Christ had in mind concerning HIS being the sole leader/instructor/shepherd.
[/quote]

Odd. You got that idea out of a letter written by Jesus Himself?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Oh, my point. I believe God ordained the church to become a spiritual organism and not a religious organization.

Religion looks to control individuals under the guise of Christianity.

I agree (assuming we are talking about American religion as opposed to "true religion" that James mentioned).

Whoever leads has the control. Hence, churches with various forms of government involving leadership (pastoral, elder-led, etc) exercise control, even if only in trace amounts. Not sure that is what Christ had in mind concerning HIS being the sole leader/instructor/shepherd.

I'm pretty sure that's not what Christ had in mind. 

 

[lnf]

I’ve read the several pages of this thread.  Of course, I could be mistaken, but I interpret Mr. Tomato’s post (reply #6 on page 1) a little differently than I have seen from the previous posts.

There's no reason to be shocked.  The problem exists not only with the man, but the system.  Wherever you have a star, you will have one or more groupies, whether the star is a CEO, a celebrity, a priest or a pastor.  This presents a temptation for both the star and the women who crave breaking through to a star.  And the bigger the challenge, the more the temptation, which is why there are romance novels about a woman infatuated with a priest.

Here's the difference, IMO.  A celebrity will be a celebrity.  Not much you can do about that.  A business needs a CEO to exist and succeed. 

A church or Christian organization doesn't need a star pastor.

Lay aside for a moment that Mr. Tomato advocates for a house church model.  What he has highlighted in his post is that “stars” are targeted.  It doesn’t matter what sort of star, whether a celebrity, a powerful businessman, an athlete…or a pastor.  Certain people will gravitate toward them.  Like Mr. Tomato said, stars attract “groupies”.  Let me make a few comparisons:

• Celebrities are followed by autograph seekers.  Pastors might be asked to sign someone’s Bible. 
• Powerful businessmen attract sycophants.  Pastors often have congregants who hang on their every word.
• Rock stars attract groupies who are more than willing to have a sexual relationship with them.  Well, the same can be said for pastors.

No, pastors are not exempt from the same sorts of temptations/pitfalls that famous/wealthy/popular/powerful people are exposed to.  And it’s not limited to only nationally/globally-recognized “stars”, either.  Even the least-known “local star” is a prize in someone’s world!

So why might a pastor fall into a trap?  Well, if the culture of the church is such that the pastor is exalted far above the congregation, he might succumb to the sin of pride.  Perhaps this is why, as Mr. Coffee pointed out in reply 22 on page 3, Matthew 23:11 states:  ”But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.”  I think Luke 22:26 states it even more strongly:  “ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.”

But let’s not put the entire onus onto the pastor.  Let’s take these two verses all the way into the practical.  Yes, these verses (there are others…I’ve only quoted two) show that a leader is to be a humble servant.  As Proverbs 16:18 states, “Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.”  But I believe these verses are also an admonition to even the least regarded member of the body…yes, we should respect our pastor as the head of our body, as our leader, as our teacher, but we should not set him on a pedestal as an idol.  Let us never forget…he is simply a man, a human, fallible person, and only one part of the body.  We do our pastor a disservice if we, by our actions, exalt him above his office…that of a servant!  1Corinthians 12 paints a beautifully clear picture for us, as does Romans 12.

I took the scenic route to get back to the beginning of my thought:  Yes, pastors have fallen, and, unfortunately, will continue to fall.  They certainly do bear the responsibility for their own actions…but we, as congregants, many times throughout the ages, have “pushed” them down the path to their own destruction because we have set them up as idols in our own hearts!

And that is how I interpreted Mr. Tomato’s post.  Whew!  I need a nap.

 

[Patebald]

Never heard of him

 

[Just John]

You didn't miss much. His ministry was a bit odd.

Agree. My company does business with Vision Forum and I have a relationship with the organization (but not Phillips). The guys I have come into contact with there are really good guys to the best of my knowledge. I say "guys" because very few if any woman work there. They are pretty much "women should be working only in the home". Phillips is into the "Quiverfull" movement. A few years ago my boss was invited to one of their retreats at which he says he was "knighted" and given a way cool sword, the real deal. When I started working with the account and my brother heard about that he was really hoping I would be knighted so he could have the sword for his man cave.  LOL

As for "leaders" being celebrities and falling...those are the ones we hear about because, well, they are "celebrities" (sometimes aka  "well known"). The guy with a church of 500 doing the same thing doesn't get the same publicity as the "well known". Doesn't mean it happens less.

 

[Ransom]

Even the least-known “local star” is a prize in someone’s world!

And some people reject church "stars" in favour of home-church-movement ones.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Even the least-known “local star” is a prize in someone’s world!

And some people reject church "stars" in favour of home-church-movement ones.

Well, I certainly don't consider the home-church guru "Apostle" Paul a star.

 

[subllibrm]

Even the least-known “local star” is a prize in someone’s world!

And some people reject church "stars" in favour of home-church-movement ones.

Well, I certainly don't consider the home-church guru "Apostle" Paul a star.

Well somebody did. He even told them to knock it off calling themselves "of Paul" or "of Apollos".

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Even the least-known “local star” is a prize in someone’s world!

And some people reject church "stars" in favour of home-church-movement ones.

Well, I certainly don't consider the home-church guru "Apostle" Paul a star.

I've read Paul extensively and he never mentioned you specifically either.
He did reference your group on a few occasions....

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

And some people reject church "stars" in favour of home-church-movement ones.

The church I attended in North Carolina was not a home church.  They had a handful of elders who took turns preaching a message.  I don't recall if they had anyone performing pastoral duties, but I assume so.  But there was no "pastor" or single leader of the church.

In other words, you don't need to be a home church to avoid the pitfalls of star pastors or single leaders.