Water into wine or Welch's?

[The Rogue Tomato]

So could have Aristotle, but he used oinos as synonymous with gleukos,

Reference please?

Also gleukos IS alcoholic (cf. Acts 2:13), so oinos certainly has more in common with it than it does with trux.

Right.  Gleukos is sweet wine (new wine, where the fermentation process hasn't eaten all the sugar). 

Acts 2:13 wouldn't make sense otherwise. 

13 Others mocking said, “They are full of grape juice.”

Really?  Who here has gotten giddy on grape juice?  Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller? 

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

So could have Aristotle, but he used oinos as synonymous with gleukos,

Reference please?

Also gleukos IS alcoholic (cf. Acts 2:13), so oinos certainly has more in common with it than it does with trux.

Aristotle's Meteorologica
Sweet wine (gleukos) fumes, being fat and behaving in the same way as oil, for cold does not solidify it and it will burn. And though called wine (oinos), it has not the effect of wine (oinos), for it does not taste like wine and does not intoxicate like ordinary wine, It gives off few fumes and so is inflammable.

Here from another translation of Aristotle's work
Sweet wine does give off fumes, for it contains fat and behaves like oil. It does not solidify under the influence of cold and it is apt to burn. Really it is not wine at all in spite of its name: for it does not taste like wine and consequently does not inebriate as ordinary wine does. It contains but little fumigable stuff and consequently is inflammable.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

So could have Aristotle, but he used oinos as synonymous with gleukos,

Reference please?

Also gleukos IS alcoholic (cf. Acts 2:13), so oinos certainly has more in common with it than it does with trux.

Aristotle's Meteorologica
Sweet wine (gleukos) fumes, being fat and behaving in the same way as oil, for cold does not solidify it and it will burn. And though called wine (oinos), it has not the effect of wine (oinos), for it does not taste like wine and does not intoxicate like ordinary wine, It gives off few fumes and so is inflammable.

Here from another translation of Aristotle's work
Sweet wine does give off fumes, for it contains fat and behaves like oil. It does not solidify under the influence of cold and it is apt to burn. Really it is not wine at all in spite of its name: for it does not taste like wine and consequently does not inebriate as ordinary wine does. It contains but little fumigable stuff and consequently is inflammable.

Fat?  Methinks Aristotle wasn't such a good scientist, which is to be expected considering the date when this was written.  Grape juice has zero fat.  And there are other problems interpreting what he said.  Behaves like oil?  Apt to burn?  Inflammable?  Inflammable can mean it doesn't burn (but he just said it did), or does burn.  Maybe inflammable was a word like wine -- it meant whatever you wanted it to mean at the moment. 

Anyone want to venture a guess as to why gleukos would not solidify (freeze) under the influence of cold?  And just how cold was he talking about?  Wine does freeze, but at a much lower temperature than water, depending on the alcohol content.  But I'm pretty sure Aristotle didn't have a Whirlpool/Kenmore freezer set below 15 degrees for the purpose of testing.  The lowest recorded temperature in Athens is 25 degrees, well above the freezing level for wine. 

 

[rsc2a]

So could have Aristotle, but he used oinos as synonymous with gleukos,

Reference please?

Also gleukos IS alcoholic (cf. Acts 2:13), so oinos certainly has more in common with it than it does with trux.

Aristotle's Meteorologica
Sweet wine (gleukos) fumes, being fat and behaving in the same way as oil, for cold does not solidify it and it will burn. And though called wine (oinos), it has not the effect of wine (oinos), for it does not taste like wine and does not intoxicate like ordinary wine, It gives off few fumes and so is inflammable.

Here from another translation of Aristotle's work
Sweet wine does give off fumes, for it contains fat and behaves like oil. It does not solidify under the influence of cold and it is apt to burn. Really it is not wine at all in spite of its name: for it does not taste like wine and consequently does not inebriate as ordinary wine does. It contains but little fumigable stuff and consequently is inflammable.

Fat?  Methinks Aristotle wasn't such a good scientist, which is to be expected considering the date when this was written.  Grape juice has zero fat.  And there are other problems interpreting what he said.  Behaves like oil?  Apt to burn?  Inflammable?  Inflammable can mean it doesn't burn (but he just said it did), or does burn.  Maybe inflammable was a word like wine -- it meant whatever you wanted it to mean at the moment. 

Anyone want to venture a guess as to why gleukos would not solidify (freeze) under the influence of cold?  And just how cold was he talking about?  Wine does freeze, but at a much lower temperature than water, depending on the alcohol content.  But I'm pretty sure Aristotle didn't have a Whirlpool/Kenmore freezer set below 15 degrees for the purpose of testing.  The lowest recorded temperature in Athens is 25 degrees, well above the freezing level for wine.

Aristotle was also ignoring the fact that the source of alcohol had to be something like 45% pure for it to be reliably flammable.

 

[Recovering IFB]

So could have Aristotle, but he used oinos as synonymous with gleukos,

Reference please?

Also gleukos IS alcoholic (cf. Acts 2:13), so oinos certainly has more in common with it than it does with trux.

Right.  Gleukos is sweet wine (new wine, where the fermentation process hasn't eaten all the sugar). 

Acts 2:13 wouldn't make sense otherwise. 

13 Others mocking said, “They are full of grape juice.”

Really?  Who here has gotten giddy on grape juice?  Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?

So that's why my kids get crazy after I give them grape juice with breakfast!?!, huh? Who would have thought!

Typical Fundie-speak, change definitions and lie about church history to prove a point, throughout Scripture and church history it was a no teaching of grape juice theory to lo and behold, the good ole' USA morality movement takes place in the 1800's and all of a sudden, Jesus drank grape juice! Ridiculous!!
IP, let me ask you this, why would Paul in Romans 14, ask us not to make somebody stumble, or in Collosians 2, tell uss not to let people judge us if we were drinking grape juice? It doesn't make sense in a Biblical context if it was grape juice! It had to be talking about alcoholic beverages, there is no other way that it makes sense!

 

[Ransom]

Aristotle's Meteorologica
Sweet wine (gleukos) fumes, being fat and behaving in the same way as oil, for cold does not solidify it and it will burn. And though called wine (oinos), it has not the effect of wine (oinos), for it does not taste like wine and does not intoxicate like ordinary wine, It gives off few fumes and so is inflammable.

Here from another translation of Aristotle's work
Sweet wine does give off fumes, for it contains fat

No, it doesn't.

and behaves like oil.

I assume he means the distinction he makes earlier in this section between fluids like water that give off "vapour" (i.e. the product of evaporation) vs. "fumes" (i.e. the product of combustion, e.g. smoke). Since he is mistaken about gleukos containing fat or oil, he is also incorrect about this.

It does not solidify under the influence of cold and it is apt to burn.

I wonder why? Could it be because it contains a high concentration of, oh, I don't know - alcohol? You know, something that will a) depress its freezing point, and b) combust?

Really it is not wine at all in spite of its name: for it does not taste like wine and consequently does not inebriate as ordinary wine does.

Since it is younger, it tastes sweeter. Since the fermentation is not as complete, it has a lower alcohol content. Nonetheless, it will intoxicate you if you drink enough. In Acts 2, the Jews took that for granted.

Also, if we're going to take Aristotle at his word, it's only fair to point out that he contradicts himself concerning whether or not gleukos is oinos:

There is a kind of wine [oinos], for instance, which both solidifies and thickens by boiling-I mean, must [gleukos]. (Metr. IV.7, 384a4-5, trans. W. D. Ross)

Yes, once you remove all the water from gleukos, it will not taste like oinos, it will not inebriate like oinos (because all the alcohol would also boil away), and the leftover organic solids would very likely emit "fumes" (i.e. smoke) when burned.

So the moral of the story is, if you're going to quote-mine ancient Greek philosophers, make sure you know what they're actually arguing for . . .

 

[rsc2a]

I'd also point out that for someone to attempt to use Scripture to teach generic1 others that they should totally abstain from alcohol is an act of evil on the part of the teacher. In fact, Scripture is quite explicit on this "teaching of demons".

1 Every believer I know who doesn't have a problem with Christians who enjoy beverages containing alcohol would grant that there are certain exceptions where, for specific individuals, abstinence is probably the only prudent choice. This isn't even remotely the same as a generic prohibition.

 

[Izdaari]

If kids get giddy from grape juice, it's from the crazy high sugar content. That's why I'll drink wine but not grape juice. Welch's uses Concord grapes, especially bred for silly amounts of sugar. When you make wine from it, you get absurdly sweet wine, such as the infamous Mad Dog 20/20. If I said you could use it for pancake syrup, I'd be exaggerating, but not by much.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I say we should go through the NT and replace all references to wine with "grape juice".  This would make for some interesting reading. 

"Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much grape juice"

"the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much grape juice"

"And do not be drunk with grape juice, in which is dissipation"

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a grape juice bibber"

"Nor do they put new grape juice into old grape juice skins, or else the grape juice skins break"

"Others mocking said, They are full of new grape juice."

(Incidentally, they didn't always use just grapes to make wine.)

 

[subllibrm]

(Incidentally, they didn't always use just grapes to make wine.)

Neither did Annie Green Springs or Boone's Farm! 

 

[Recovering IFB]

I say we should go through the NT and replace all references to wine with "grape juice".  This would make for some interesting reading. 

"Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much grape juice"

"the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much grape juice"

"And do not be drunk with grape juice, in which is dissipation"

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a grape juice bibber"

"Nor do they put new grape juice into old grape juice skins, or else the grape juice skins break"

"Others mocking said, They are full of new grape juice."

(Incidentally, they didn't always use just grapes to make wine.)

I forgot about the wine skin parable. During the fermentation process, the wine would expand, breaking the wine skins or bottle for that matter. After thinking about this and asking myself, "if alcohol was sinful, why would Jesus use it in a parable as such?"
This just goes to show how culture can effect your theology, in this case; legalistic teetotalers are effected by the bad theology brought on by moralistic/ Prohibitionist movements of the 1800's

 

[FSSL]

This just goes to show how culture can effect your theology, in this case; legalistic teetotalers are effected by the bad theology brought on by moralistic/ Prohibitionist movements of the 1800's

... and when fundys realize that their exposition does not hold up... they use pietistic manipulation like... the statements found here http://sharperiron.org/filings/090114/30159

"I drink as much as I want, which is none."

 

[QuestioningIFB]

This just goes to show how culture can effect your theology, in this case; legalistic teetotalers are effected by the bad theology brought on by moralistic/ Prohibitionist movements of the 1800's

Exactly.  Every argument about wine in the gospels being only grape juice simply doesn't hold up.  Prohibition in the late 19th and early 20th centuries was an extremely controversial, highly emotional wedge issue at the ballot box.  Re-interpreting wine in the New Testament to actually mean grape juice was the only way to bring the dry movement in line with Christianity and get mass support for Prohibition from churchgoers.  Its astounding how that bad theology is still with us today after more than a century, and the fact people cling to it to the point of accusing people who believe otherwise of heresy.

 

[AmazedbyGrace]

Then there is the problem of God suggesting the consumption of strong drink.


Deuteronomy 14:26 (KJV)

26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

 

[Ransom]

I forgot about the wine skin parable. During the fermentation process, the wine would expand, breaking the wine skins or bottle for that matter. After thinking about this and asking myself, "if alcohol was sinful, why would Jesus use it in a parable as such?"

Worse (for the fundies), Luke puts another of Jesus' wine-related sayings immediately after this one, in chapter 5:

And no one after drinking old wine desires new, for he says, "The old is good." (Luke 5:39)

Old wine is either wine that has had a chance to age by resting on its lees, which tends to balance its flavours; or it is wine that has had a chance to ferment. Either way, it is not freshly pressed grape juice. Even though wine was an everyday staple for first-century Jews, clearly they had something similar to our modern aesthetic concerning what good wine was - and Jesus simply states it as a fact.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

And no one after drinking old wine desires new, for he says, "The old is good." (Luke 5:39)

Old wine is either wine that has had a chance to age by resting on its lees, which tends to balance its flavours; or it is wine that has had a chance to ferment. Either way, it is not freshly pressed grape juice. Even though wine was an everyday staple for first-century Jews, clearly they had something similar to our modern aesthetic concerning what good wine was - and Jesus simply states it as a fact.

This concept, if it referred to grape juice, would put a whole new spin on expiration dates. 

Welch's grape juice would be marked "Best used 5 years after expiration date marked on bottle." 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

“Every man at the beginning sets out the Welch's grape juice, and when the guests have well drunk, then the off-brand generic grape juice. You have kept the Welch's grape juice until now!”

 

[TidesofTruth]

Wine is a grace of God to help mankind cope with the horrors of man's own making as the result of a sin sick world.  Wine is a foreshadow.

Kings, Princes and Priests have always been forbidden to imbibe.  That is why Proverbs is full of warnings.

Conduct yourselves accordingly.

 

[T-Bone]

Wine is a grace of God to help mankind cope with the horrors of man's own making as the result of a sin sick world.  Wine is a foreshadow.

Kings, Princes and Priests have always been forbidden to imbibe.  That is why Proverbs is full of warnings.

Conduct yourselves accordingly.

Forbid to drink, or get drunk...if it is the first are you claiming Jesus can't be a king or priest?

 

[BALAAM]

Let's not forget that in Exodus 22:29 they were to offer to God the first of their ripe fruit and their LIQUORS!