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Tarheel Baptist

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AmazedbyGrace said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
I have stated before and still believe that Paul Chappel is the best of the current Fundamentalist lot.
I was in a book distribution center last week and noticed that his books are being 'mainstreamed' by being placed on their 'mailing list'.
I have personally found some of his materials to be very helpful.
Did you find this helpful too?

WCBC Eagle

I found parts of it funny...it seems to me they are poking a little fun at themselves....or what some people perceive them to be anyway.
I probably wouldn't send my grandchildren to their school or attend their church, but much of their material is well done and helpful...IMHO!
 

AmazedbyGrace

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brianb said:
I don't deny that these things happened to them however why don't think give the year(s) they attended? To say that this is how students are treated today is just assumption at best and libelous at worst.
The college is only about 18 years old. Saying such abuse was soooo last century is a bit ridiculous. The same top 3 execs have run the joint the entire time. If they have morphed into kinder, more gracious leaders then they should apologize for past bad behavior.


brianb said:
Every one I know personally including those who disagree with some things such as teachings at West Coast all give the school positive marks at least in how they were treated. I know my pastor would not tolerate any of his children (the last of whom graduated from there a couple of years ago) being treated like that and although they obeyed the rules they didn't share every personal conviction that Chappell had.
I know many unrelated people who have attended. Some are obviously treated better than others. The children of a pastor who will rec the school to others is a "preferred customer" and will more than likely get preferential treatment. It also stands to reason that when teens get guilted and manipulated into going to Bible college they are probably not going to be the best rule followers. This does not excuse the bad behavior by the admin described by the former students.

brianb said:
Not every one who spends 4 years of their life there becomes a fundie-bot or a Chappell-bot.
This is certainly true based on all the people who have decided to leave the IFBx completely after getting out of WCBC. Their stories never make it in the glossy marketing material the college sends out.

brianb said:
If his school was training students from other churches to be like that dean in the video the pastors of at least some of the churches would not want to send any more students there. Many IFB pastors see West Coast Baptist College as a last hope for their young people especially those going into ministry.
You can't be serious....If they think WCBC is the last hope for their young people their faith is completely misplaced. Jesus is our hope, not some overpriced  unaccredited kawledge. smh


brianb said:
If WCBC is no different than any other IFB college such as HAC where the pastor/chancellor wants to change the way you think in such a way that you think the IFB church you came from is wrong in some way so that you decide to leave it or never go back that would be a loss for them. It's also a loss for WCBC if IFB churches who won't recommend any other college won't recommend that college to any one in their churches. If someone is called to serve as a missionary and there are no options in IFB circles where they can be trained the only alternative to them is to leave the church they were in and go somewhere else (most likely an SBC college or a university like Liberty).  Chappell can't afford to be so divisive that he separates from the last remaining IFB churches who are friendly with him whether they agree with everything he does or not. One thing about Chappell and this is true of maybe a few other IFB pastors is that he doesn't divide over minor differences between churches though he is not likely to allow those differences in his church - an example of this is music - there are IFB churches that are more contemporary than his church like in the music they play but he still associates with them. When you say he micro-manages people's lives especially his staff I won't deny this - you obviously know more about this than I do so I'll take your word for it - however I hope that he would learn from other pastors of large churches how to treat or manage people in his own church.  This is a problem with churches today and I don't think it's just in IFB circles. Many pastors don't know how to pastor a mega-church properly - some have adopted a business model and that's a mistake - it's not Biblical. I'm not a fan of mega-churches but they seem to be somewhat of a necessity these days - many will not go to a church unless it has certain ministries or amenities and they often find these in a mega-church - they want good music and good doctrine that they find in small churches but they want more than that.

They separate with churches over music, Bible preference, dress standards, etc. I remember one young college girl sharing how she came from a place where girls wore pants. At WCBC she learned why she should be wearing skirts instead. He makes graduates promise to return their "degree" if they ever disagree with WCBC over things, including KJVO.

I certainly believe he wants to change the rest of IFB to be more like him. And his church is a good example of a church run like a business. I have heard staff members are expected to bring in enough new people to justify their salary. Yeah, it is a business.



brianb said:
That guy who was mistreated by the Dean of Students should not have assumed that this is acceptable behavior for a Dean. Just because he was hired to have authority over students it doesn't mean he has the right to do anything he wants with them. He should or better yet he and a friend should have gone to Paul Chappell personally - if Paul Chappell claims to follow the Bible literally he should have no problem with this. Also those who go to Paul Chappell should be doing it in the right spirit and be ready to show from the Bible if necessary that how they were treated was wrong.
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Sorry, but that would not have been well received.

I think he should have reported the Dean to the police.


brianb said:
I've been in an IFB church for over 20 years and I've never been treated that way by any one including the pastors.  Though personally I wouldn't endorse WCBC especially as a college to go to and live at I would not tell people who know the rules and want to go not to go there - anyone who goes to any college should know beforehand how they will be treated if they break any of the rules or are falsely accused of doing such.
If they are the last hope for the IFB why wouldn't you recommend them?

The glossy marketing materials do not include the long list of rules. Will WCBC disclose all the policies and rules before the student makes the sizable investment of coming to the high desert that is Lancaster?

brianb said:
  If they think they are going to get in trouble possibly because they got in trouble in the public school they went to - some are public school grads who for some reason decided to go to an unaccredited Bible college - of course being in an IFB church helps. If you don't want anyone to go to an IFB college you need to convince them to change from an IFB church to something different - if their church treats them well no matter how they behave - the only other way to get them to change would be in the matter of doctrine like convincing someone to become a Calvinist.
I do not follow your reasoning here. Please restate.

 

brianb

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AmazedbyGrace said:
brianb said:
I don't deny that these things happened to them however why don't think give the year(s) they attended? To say that this is how students are treated today is just assumption at best and libelous at worst.
The college is only about 18 years old. Saying such abuse was soooo last century is a bit ridiculous. The same top 3 execs have run the joint the entire time. If they have morphed into kinder, more gracious leaders then they should apologize for past bad behavior.


brianb said:
Every one I know personally including those who disagree with some things such as teachings at West Coast all give the school positive marks at least in how they were treated. I know my pastor would not tolerate any of his children (the last of whom graduated from there a couple of years ago) being treated like that and although they obeyed the rules they didn't share every personal conviction that Chappell had.
I know many unrelated people who have attended. Some are obviously treated better than others. The children of a pastor who will rec the school to others is a "preferred customer" and will more than likely get preferential treatment. It also stands to reason that when teens get guilted and manipulated into going to Bible college they are probably not going to be the best rule followers. This does not excuse the bad behavior by the admin described by the former students.

brianb said:
Not every one who spends 4 years of their life there becomes a fundie-bot or a Chappell-bot.
This is certainly true based on all the people who have decided to leave the IFBx completely after getting out of WCBC. Their stories never make it in the glossy marketing material the college sends out.

brianb said:
If his school was training students from other churches to be like that dean in the video the pastors of at least some of the churches would not want to send any more students there. Many IFB pastors see West Coast Baptist College as a last hope for their young people especially those going into ministry.
You can't be serious....If they think WCBC is the last hope for their young people their faith is completely misplaced. Jesus is our hope, not some overpriced  unaccredited kawledge. smh


brianb said:
If WCBC is no different than any other IFB college such as HAC where the pastor/chancellor wants to change the way you think in such a way that you think the IFB church you came from is wrong in some way so that you decide to leave it or never go back that would be a loss for them. It's also a loss for WCBC if IFB churches who won't recommend any other college won't recommend that college to any one in their churches. If someone is called to serve as a missionary and there are no options in IFB circles where they can be trained the only alternative to them is to leave the church they were in and go somewhere else (most likely an SBC college or a university like Liberty).  Chappell can't afford to be so divisive that he separates from the last remaining IFB churches who are friendly with him whether they agree with everything he does or not. One thing about Chappell and this is true of maybe a few other IFB pastors is that he doesn't divide over minor differences between churches though he is not likely to allow those differences in his church - an example of this is music - there are IFB churches that are more contemporary than his church like in the music they play but he still associates with them. When you say he micro-manages people's lives especially his staff I won't deny this - you obviously know more about this than I do so I'll take your word for it - however I hope that he would learn from other pastors of large churches how to treat or manage people in his own church.  This is a problem with churches today and I don't think it's just in IFB circles. Many pastors don't know how to pastor a mega-church properly - some have adopted a business model and that's a mistake - it's not Biblical. I'm not a fan of mega-churches but they seem to be somewhat of a necessity these days - many will not go to a church unless it has certain ministries or amenities and they often find these in a mega-church - they want good music and good doctrine that they find in small churches but they want more than that.

They separate with churches over music, Bible preference, dress standards, etc. I remember one young college girl sharing how she came from a place where girls wore pants. At WCBC she learned why she should be wearing skirts instead. He makes graduates promise to return their "degree" if they ever disagree with WCBC over things, including KJVO.

I certainly believe he wants to change the rest of IFB to be more like him. And his church is a good example of a church run like a business. I have heard staff members are expected to bring in enough new people to justify their salary. Yeah, it is a business.



brianb said:
That guy who was mistreated by the Dean of Students should not have assumed that this is acceptable behavior for a Dean. Just because he was hired to have authority over students it doesn't mean he has the right to do anything he wants with them. He should or better yet he and a friend should have gone to Paul Chappell personally - if Paul Chappell claims to follow the Bible literally he should have no problem with this. Also those who go to Paul Chappell should be doing it in the right spirit and be ready to show from the Bible if necessary that how they were treated was wrong.
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Sorry, but that would not have been well received.

I think he should have reported the Dean to the police.


brianb said:
I've been in an IFB church for over 20 years and I've never been treated that way by any one including the pastors.  Though personally I wouldn't endorse WCBC especially as a college to go to and live at I would not tell people who know the rules and want to go not to go there - anyone who goes to any college should know beforehand how they will be treated if they break any of the rules or are falsely accused of doing such.
If they are the last hope for the IFB why wouldn't you recommend them?

The glossy marketing materials do not include the long list of rules. Will WCBC disclose all the policies and rules before the student makes the sizable investment of coming to the high desert that is Lancaster?

brianb said:
  If they think they are going to get in trouble possibly because they got in trouble in the public school they went to - some are public school grads who for some reason decided to go to an unaccredited Bible college - of course being in an IFB church helps. If you don't want anyone to go to an IFB college you need to convince them to change from an IFB church to something different - if their church treats them well no matter how they behave - the only other way to get them to change would be in the matter of doctrine like convincing someone to become a Calvinist.
I do not follow your reasoning here. Please restate.
I'll answer the last part first. What I mean is someone who is afraid they are going to break the rules or may be more prone to breaking rules for example the dating rule because of a personality characteristic they have - they probably shouldn't go. I'm assuming the girl who was his (the friend of Jason B) co-worker  was not a student there. Is it more often than not that guys get caught doing these things and not girls at the college? Is it even possible for girls to break any of the rules other than the dating rule - I don't understand that rule, why does a date have to be authorized?

Now as for girls being told that they must never wear pants again,
It's going to be interesting to see what happens when some of the female students come back from that college if they will be changing the way they dress.
Btw, not every one needs to know what the rules are because some are told what they are. One of the girls who is there now is going there because her cousin or cousins went there. Now she's a little different from them because of the way she dresses sometimes - she likes to wear jeans - that's why it surprises me that she would want to go there. It isn't just because the pastor made them go or they saw the DVD - some of it is word-of-mouth. If some I know of who graduated from there were told that they would have to turn in their diploma because they still wore jeans, I think that would surprise them because some of them still do and they are not all ex-IFB/ex-IFBx some are still in these churches - in Canada especially in British Columbia there aren't as many good alternatives like you have in U.S. and California. If my church was telling girls or even women they should dress a certain way because of this or that like they are or were told at Lancaster I would leave the church right away and go to another church (non-IFB) - for me there is a good alternative church that is reminiscent of the churches I went to as a child before many of these churches went seeker-friendly.

When I said WCBC was their last hope I meant that only for some it was. I agree that Jesus is their hope but I didn't mean hope in that sense. Many pastors see WCBC as the better alternative to colleges like PCC and BJU. I personally would recommend a Canadian IFB college like Faithway in Ontario even though it is very small but I know many would not want to go there because of that. I wouldn't recommend the other one in Manitoba - too many bad testimonies especially from young people for a college of that small size - I do know one guy who went there in his thirties and he's an evangelist now and a surprisingly good one (really knowledgeable and intellectual but at the same time an effective speaker - very unusual for an evangelist especially an IFB one) - but he's an exception and I guess because of his age and personality he could handle the school or education better.  Having said that I don't make recommendations to any one in my church - don't need to - they will make that decision if they haven't already when they come to it. If you knew some of the young people I met in IFB you'd be surprised at not only those who went to an IFB college but those who didn't. There are people who I thought would not go to an IFB college who did and those who I thought would go to an IFB college who didn't (and didn't go to any college) and this was based on their personality. I assumed that one girl who was kind of tomboyish and strong-minded would not go to an IFB college and she went to Crown College - like why would a girl like that go there? People can surprise you.  I've learned never to assume things about people like assuming that all homeschoolers in IFB churches will go to an IFB college - they don't all do that and that is fine with the parents, not all parents or even pastors consider them rebels. If I was to guess I would say there are probably more young people now who are in IFB churches who are not currently in an IFB college than those who are.  It's much better for a local church for young people to make their own decision what they will do. Why make someone waste thousands of dollars on an IFB college if in fact it may be better if they would learn a trade and make good money or go to medical or law school for example who will give to the church and missions. Pastors who coerce all the young people in their church to go to an IFB college are going to lose in the end. Even those who come back to serve in the church are still going to need a job; it's probably going to be the same job they did to pay for some or all of their college tuition while they were in college. I know some of these pastors may be thinking that they can still go to another college or university or even learn a trade - Yes but guess what - most likely they will have to apply for a student loan depending on whether they go full time. If they go part-time they will have to use some of the money from their low-paying part-time job to pay for tuition. Going to an IFB college is fine but it's more advantageous for those who are called to go into paid full-time ministry in an IFB church to go there. In my opinion those in IFB churches who are not called should either go to college (a partially publicly funded one) with the money their parents saved for their education or get a job and work for a year. It's a waste of money to go to a private college or university even a Christian one that is accredited when you could take the same courses for less tuition at a "public" one.

Btw, there is another WCBC promo spoof video from about 2 years ago on youtube - I don't know if the students were expelled for that but it is clear that they were students at the time they made the video. Could you imagine these guys at a college like Master's * (Macarthur's) - aren't they more sophisticated and intellectual?  I know they also have fun too but it seems to me they would not likely have the kind of students that WCBC gets - WCBC seems to get a lot of hyper-active guys who if it wasn't for being Christians they would probably be going to Spring Break parties and being rowdy. This is why I think they should work for a year and actually I think that even if they have money for college already they should still work for a year - I have found that working full-time actually helps one to build character than going to a college immediately after high school does. This is assuming though that they can get a job; if they can't then they should go to college - college is better than nothing.

* I only mentioned Master's because it's more convenient to those who live on the West Coast - otherwise they could just go to Liberty, Tennessee Temple or even Maranatha.
 

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We have 3 of our church students there for the first time this year and they seem to fit in real well, which surprises me.  Two of the kids are public school grads, one went to a state university for 2 years and neither of those kids are IFBx by any means.  The girl's dress standards are way different than WCBC, but it is where she wants to be and she has no problem with conforming to the standards.  The guy was raised in a different church but started coming to ours because he thought we had cute girls.  Never, ever imagined him to be interested in anything spiritual, but he now wants to work with youth.  The third guy is very conservative and wants to be there for a year before transferring to another school.  His parents said he could go wherever he wanted for college.
All 3 of the kids want to be there and did not have anyone pushing it.  Actually, most kids in our area go to Crown because of its location.

Because these are kids I know and keep in touch with while they are at school, I have a good impression of the college.   
 

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JrChurch said:
We have 3 of our church students there for the first time this year and they seem to fit in real well, which surprises me.  Two of the kids are public school grads, one went to a state university for 2 years and neither of those kids are IFBx by any means.  The girl's dress standards are way different than WCBC, but it is where she wants to be and she has no problem with conforming to the standards.  The guy was raised in a different church but started coming to ours because he thought we had cute girls.  Never, ever imagined him to be interested in anything spiritual, but he now wants to work with youth.  The third guy is very conservative and wants to be there for a year before transferring to another school.  His parents said he could go wherever he wanted for college.
All 3 of the kids want to be there and did not have anyone pushing it.  Actually, most kids in our area go to Crown because of its location.

Because these are kids I know and keep in touch with while they are at school, I have a good impression of the college. 
Young people today are more sophisticated than we were and does any one honestly think that these young people are going to be manipulated into changing things like how they dress or what music they listen to - things of that nature? People who graduate from WCBC don't talk about Paul Chappell they way some who graduated from Hyles Anderson years ago would talk about Jack Hyles. Hyles Anderson produces "Hackers" - you don't find people who graduate from WCBC or any other IFB college forever linking themselves to that college or the senior pastor - what would WCBC grads call themselves - Wackies? I guess Crown College grads would be Crownies. WCBC doesn't want those who are outsiders from other IFB churches to stay with the church - the school's purpose is to train students to be better equipped not just in Bible but in technology and other areas to serve in their home church even though for many of them their church is temporarily Lancaster Baptist Church - some however don't live on campus and go to another IFB church which is their home church nearby - I understand there is another IFB church in Lancaster but I don't know any thing about it. And btw, the standards that they most hold to or they must turn in their diploma are the standards that the churches who send their students there at least the ones I know hold to.  I'd be surprised if any church that was not KJV only or had a different dress code for their church workers (especially teachers) would send young people there - what are you thinking? Aren't there Bible colleges for people who share your convictions? I can think of one in Canada - Prairie Bible Institute. For people who live more east of the Pacific there is Maranatha Baptist Bible College - their dress code is more lax than it used to be - so really there is no reason to go to WCBC and both those other colleges are accredited. I would personally recommend MBBC because it is IFB though not like WCBC is. The other college "PBI" is friendly to IFB but any one can go there so it is mixed - it may not be your cup of tea if you just want to mingle with those who share all your convictions like Baptist distinctives. I'm still foggy on what Lancaster Baptist Church's dress standards are for church workers. I know that in my church we have one Sunday School teacher right now who outside of church dresses casually - like wearing pants. Is it a requirement for all church workers to follow a certain dress code especially in public or at home in the presence of other company as a matter of testimony? What would be the point in that? A women wearing pants is not offensive to most people - even Muslims aren't offended by a non-Muslim woman wearing pants - what they think is offensive is bikinis - they expect a non-Muslim woman to wear pants in western society. The Bible even says that a women's good works should be her main clothing - she should dress modestly however she thinks is modest but her main clothing is her good works. The Bible also says to put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ - people shouldn't be seeing the material temporal things we wear - they should be seeing Christ. If someone is just dressing modestly and not doing good works and not showing Christ they are not making any impression. The world just sees an oddly dressed religious person. So far I haven't seen that attitude from West Coast Baptist grads. All the ones I know are serving God and doing good works. I should also mention that not every one who is working in an IFB church that favors WCBC is a graduate of the same college - Most of them will be graduates from WCBC but colleges like Faithway which in Ontario (which has been around longer than WCBC) are acceptable to this kind of IFB church - the only difference between these two colleges is in size and structure so there are grads from this college in some churches though they may be few. And btw, Faithway only has about 40 students even though Faithway Baptist Church has about 600 people and is at least one of the largest Baptist congregations in Canada - what that tells me is that there are likely not many people from the church who go to the college though it may be that most of them that do go to the college are from the church. I don't know if you can say the same thing about WCBC and Lancaster Baptist - are most of the students from Lancaster Baptist Church? I'd be interested to know.  I imagine that in the beginning in 1995 the students were from the church - that makes sense - I didn't even know West Coast Baptist College existed until about 2000 when someone I know went there. Before that all I knew about was Hyles Anderson, Bob Jones University, Maranatha (which is the alma mater of 3 pastors I know as well as a few women I know), Faithway and that one in Manitoba - don't get me started on their student handbook - did you know they don't allow Bluegrass or Southern Gospel? Obviously a Hyles influence there - Hyles didn't like Southern Gospel. Personally I could live without Southern Gospel but I like Bluegrass.

Btw, concerning WCBC and the Dean of Students being mean - if that is the case than some of his students or grads and may be even Paul Chappell should apologize to David Cloud for mocking his supposedly mean attitude. There's this Fake David Cloud on Twitter that is favorite of WCBC grads at least and he is portrayed as being mean and divisive - I agree that he is divisive but I don't recall David Cloud every yelling at one - I've found him to be quite soft spoken and even dry at times - I know because I've not only heard him at my church years ago but I've heard him online. Many of these people at WCBC have never actually heard him - they just read what he writes and assume that he has a certain demeanor because of what he writes. He'll say things like WCBC has been known to practice a form of 1-2-3 pray after me - you know this is probably true - though it may not be taught at WCBC - for some students that's all they know - they should be taught not to do that however. Yet because he is pointed out something that is clearly wrong he is being treated as being divisive for pointing that out - they think that Cloud should only warn about non-IFB and non-Fundamentalist churches and the secular world.
 

Walt

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brianb said:
Based on what I've been reading from him and the negative things that fundamentalists like David Cloud have said about him or the things he has said in recent days I think Paul Chappell has changed in the past 10 years more so in the past year. Years ago he had a better relationship with fundamentalists like Cloud - now his church is not even listed in the wayoflife.org church directory (in fact there aren't many churches listed in that directory). Also the practice of shunning is not something he teaches anymore - I know this because one of  the daughters of one of his key men on staff is now a Southern Baptist and he has a good relationship with her. There may be old school members who still do this but they do not represent the present views of Paul Chappell or his staff.



I was doing a search for Lancaster related matters from former members when I found this news article from last December - wow.
http://www.dailynews.com/antelopevalley/ci_19556329

1. Don't steal.
2. Don't cheat the IRS - That's how Capone got caught.

This guy was a high level NASA employee so he wasn't poor.
I'm just wondering how he could steal that much - $300,000 in, what?, 5 years?  That's $60,000 a year, which is over $1,000 a week - that's a lot of bills to be hiding.  I've never been in a church where only one man counted the money -- how does one hide dozens of bills from an offering????
 
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