Holding that one must be water baptized to get saved, so they add a good work unto the Gospel of grace, holding to same heresy as Rome does, Baptismal regeneration, many hold to cannot have any instruments in worship, and also tend to get llegalistic , as hold to can fall from grace and get lost again
What do we think about Tim Keller?
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I also don't believe in OSAS. Anyone can fall away. I still agree we need baptism to get saved not a sinners prayer. So I mean
Do you hold that if we fall away, can never get saved again?I also don't believe in OSAS. Anyone can fall away. I still agree we need baptism to get saved not a sinners prayer. So I mean
I mean it's possible but not the norm. People can have death bed conversions at the last minute.
As would I. However, the distinction goes far deeper than semantics. Salvation happens FIRST. Baptism happens AFTERWARDS. Baptism is a step of obedience which ought to happen soon after conversion. If the act of baptism is a requirement for salvation, then salvation is no longer a work of grace. If you're coming out of an SDA background, you should be very familiar with the work of GRACE through FAITH as outlined in Ephesians and Galatians. This also has huge implications on the eternal security of the believer, which is labeled as Once Saved Always Saved. I've heard some good reasoning for a distinction between OSAS and the eternal security but suffice to say that when grace saves you, YOU ARE SECURE! You can't back out of it. If you want to back out, I can't say you were ever saved. There's also a great study in (I believe) Hebrews ch. 9 that shows if someone backs out of salvation, there's no longer a sacrifice for that individual.
So if you are a Christian your entire life but haven't been baptized is that person saved? I just don't know if I see it that way and though I've studied the topic I would need a pastor to walk me through it because I can't see a person in the new covenant being saved without baptism. Especially someone being a Christian for so long and if they are taught baptism isn't that big if a deal then why bother getting baptized?
Just out of curiosity, are you familiar with any CoC colleges? There’s one college we’re looking at that is CoC. I’m told around 90% of the enrollment is CoC. Just wondering how a kid who is in the 10% minority would fit in, like would they target or exclude someone not from that background?
This is a good question! First thing I would ask is whether they had opportunity to be baptized and if so, why did they NOT get baptized? The response would likely tell me a good bit about the person. If you are a Christian, you should have a desire to identify with and be numbered among God's people. Baptism is an initial first step towards all of this. Baptism is (should be - a well-written Church constitution would make it a requirement) a prerequisite for Church membership, receiving one into fellowship, etc. If someone said they were "Christian" but they couldn't stand being around "Church people" (other Christians, etc.) and refused baptism when they had opportunity, I would likely say the person was not saved because this is not the way that saved folk normally act.
I can appreciate your contempt towards "Once Saved Always Saved" as I have similar contempt as well. From a practical standpoint, I would ask "Who saved who?" "Are you holding onto Christ or does Christ have a hold on you? If someone who was truly saved could actually "fall away," then Christ would have to repeat his work of redemption in order to get you "saved" all over again. Christ's redemptive work is complete and far reaching to the uttermost extent of man's total depravity! There is nothing for a man to do aside from "Resting" in this finished work!" If one is in Christ, a changed life will be evident to the believer as well as those around them. If one does "fall away" renouncing their faith and rejecting Christ, it is evident of the fact that they never possessed that which they professed! Baptists deride Church of Christ folk making fun of the "Magic Water" they think saves them. They often fire back speaking critically of Baptists so-called hocus-pocus "Magic Sinner's Prayer" they think is going to save them! Both of them have a point and both may be categorized as "Religious Ritualism" and going through the motions "Doing things" one believes they must "do" in order to be saved! Fact of the matter is that there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING anyone can do or "must do" in order to be saved! The Philippian jailor asked Paul a flawed question ("Sirs, what must I do to be saved?") whereby Paul correctly answered "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved!" Read Ephesians 2:4-5 and it should be clearly understood that it is God who does the saving! Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Rom 10:17)! One may complete faith in a tightrope walker's ability to cross Niagra Falls with a wheelbarrow but your faith in this person means nothing if you are not sitting in the wheelbarrow!
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For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. (1 Pet. 3:18-22)
The first half of that is confusing and unclear what it means. I've left it in for context. It's the latter half--vv. 21-22--that's significant. While Peter says "baptism ... now saves you," he goes on to say it's not the physical act, but what it represents: an appeal to God.
Like communion, baptism is a sacrament--properly understood, a symbol or sign. It represents something else. The sign is the physical washing of the body. The thing signified is the washing of the spirit by the blood of Christ. Baptismal regenerationists, such as Roman Catholics, Lutherans or Campbellites, confuse symbol and substance.
But it is a big deal, because Christ commanded it. It is not a necessity for salvation, but it is a necessity for obedience. If the regenerationists conflate the symbol and the substance, people who say baptism is no big deal (implying it's something entirely optional) divorce them. If baptism is the sign of that good conscience before God, then the Christian ought to embrace it as a testimony to what God has worked in him. But leave the credit to Christ for the saving work that he has accomplished; don't credit it to the water.
I'm not saying that baptism isn't a big deal. It's basic obedience. If a new believer isn't interested in obeying the simplest commandment, that would be an indication that the life transforming work of salvation hasn't happened.
Something else you say kinda raises a flag... Being a "Christian your entire life". Everyone one of us is born an unregenerate sinner. Absolutely incapable of genuine obedience. If we do things that resemble obeying any commandments without saving faith, we only verify God's Word and prove ourselves to be lost. We don't become Christians until we acknowledge that we are lost in sin and that the Son of God paid for that sin on the cross of Calvary. We then, through faith, believe on Him and His finished work as our ONLY hope. After that, we are given the desire and the power to obey.
I take it you're calvinist. Since you said you can't be Christian until....but that doesn't mean we aren't sinners so I don't get the distinction. That's why Jesus died for us. We have sin nature. And yet we can be raised Christian our entire life not sure how that's a red flag to believe in God.
A lot of the folks on this forum are unapologetically Calvinists. I’m not. I don’t think he is, but he can speak for himself.
I ascribe to some calvie tenants; I also ascribe to quote a few non calvie teachings.
Where I agree with Calvinism centers around the total depravity of humans apart from the work of grace. I don't ascribe to irresistible grace or to a strict covenant theology when it comes to end times. I'm not a wonton dispy either.
I believe turning from sin to Christ is largely a conscious decision. I don't discount those who say that they can't remember a time when they didn't believe but they still have made a conscious choice to place their faith in Christ and are continuing to do so. I no longer believe that salvation is a one time investment of faith in the finished work of the cross. Rather, it is the beginning of a life of continuous faith.
If you're saying you don't believe in OSAS then I agree.
I dislike labels. There are many things Calvinists get right and I largely hold the Calvinistic position myself but I also see how God has used other groups to keep Calvinists "Fair and Balanced" regarding their influence throughout Church history. The Pietists and Wesleyans both stress the necessity of a "conversion experience" of which Bro Caines was trying to articulate here. Lutherans were slipping into Scholasticism and Calvinists (especially with Beza's influence) were becoming Supralapsarian and fatalistic often in reaction to the threat of the Jesuits basically saying "If you are not as Calvinistic as we are, you must be collaborating with the Jesuits" and such it was when the Remonstrants raised their objections. None of this is of any real significance here though aside from the fact that God often uses our imperfect theological application and understanding in order to "change and correct" the couse of the ship (church).
Bro Caines is well-balanced in his statement here stressing both God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Often we are "Raised Christian" and assume we are so because of this. Fact of the matter is that we must be born again (Regenerate) and this is something that is supernatural and solely the work of God! We are born not of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but of God. We may "Decide" we need to be saved but it is God who brings us to such a decision! I believe that Bro. Caines and I (as well as most others) would be in agreement here.
You keep speaking of OSAS. Rather than giving my opinion, perhaps I should ask what your objections might happen to be to such a position?
I knew Tim Keller.a little. When I first encountered him he impressed me with his superior intellect. And he did preach salvation by grace through faith alone. So in that respect he was faithful. But as far as politics, lgbtq, immigration, etc kind of things, he was a left leaning liberal. I benefitted from his willingness to go to the world and preach the gospel, engaging with the young intellectuals. But that is about it. Plus he was a Presbyterian. (SORRY RANSOM) and baptized babies which is heresy. (not rally heresy, just not biblically supportable.
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I thought you were Presbyterian.
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Nope, never!
Yes they are, but they would be in disobedience if they know that the Bible commands them to do that once were saved