What do you think?

[Tarheel Baptist]

A Facebook friend, whom I have never met in person, messaged me and asked if we could have a phone conversation ‘about a spiritual matter’. I agreed and here is her problem:

She is a 66 year old widow who is ‘in love’ and wants to get remarried. The problem is that if she remarries she will lose over 50% of her retirement income. She asked if I thought them finding a Pastor to allow them to exchange vows in a Covenant Marriage Ceremony without obtaining a marriage license was biblically permissible.

What is the option of the fff?

 

[Ransom]

Sound to me like an intent to commit fraud by misrepresenting her marital status.

Explain "covenant marriage." In Ontario, you don't need a marriage licence if the church where you intend to marry publishes the banns of marriage before the wedding. Serves the same function. But since the wedding is performed by licensed clergy, it's as legally binding as a civil ceremony with a licence. So what's covenant marriage? If she's trying to use it to get married under the table, as it were, it sounds like a common-law marriage that has been blessed by a minister.

 

[subllibrm]

Sound to me like an intent to commit fraud by misrepresenting her marital status.

Explain "covenant marriage." In Ontario, you don't need a marriage licence if the church where you intend to marry publishes the banns of marriage before the wedding. Serves the same function. But since the wedding is performed by licensed clergy, it's as legally binding as a civil ceremony with a licence. So what's covenant marriage? If she's trying to use it to get married under the table, as it were, it sounds like a common-law marriage that has been blessed by a minister.

Pretty much what I thought.

 

[abcaines]

I've heard both ways. One pastor links the civil and church institution and another who I highly respect says it is God who instituted marriage not the state, therefore, a "covenant" marriage is equally binding.

I believe that nations who complicate and/or redefine marriage are headed for judgement but since I didn't make the rules and I'm not paid to arbitrate either way, I usually stay out of it.

 

[Ekklesian]

A Facebook friend, whom I have never met in person, messaged me and asked if we could have a phone conversation ‘about a spiritual matter’. I agreed and here is her problem:

She is a 66 year old widow who is ‘in love’ and wants to get remarried. The problem is that if she remarries she will lose over 50% of her retirement income. She asked if I thought them finding a Pastor to allow them to exchange vows in a Covenant Marriage Ceremony without obtaining a marriage license was biblically permissible.

What is the option of the fff?

Every marriage is a common law marriage. Marriage existed before there were any statutes or civil authority. In fact, marriage is the foundation of civil law, not the other way around.

Yes, it's biblically permissible, if it's a matter of conscience. What's not permissible is lying to the authorities or anyone else about one's marital status, statutory or otherwise.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

After speaking to this lady, I think they want to marry but if they do legally…she loses over half of her income and they don’t think they can make ‘ends meet’ financially. She is an evangelical Christian who refuses to live ‘in sin’. I have heard of older people facing this dilemma but never encountered it first hand. Most people would just live together and forget it. They want a Pastor to provide some counseling, preside over their ceremony exchanging vows and rings and be married before God.

I declined and told her I wasn’t absolutely sure whether or not she was on firm biblical grounds. Personally, I don’t think it’s so black and white. She’s seeking a Pastor to move ahead.

 

[Bruh]

Where in the Bible does it say a pastor has to marry you?

 

[Dr. Duck]

Sounds like she wants to “have her cake and eat it too.”

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I think maybe something should be changed so as to avoid these situations. Of course most don’t see it as a problem…just shack up as my Grandma might have said.

 

[abcaines]

After speaking to this lady, I think they want to marry but if they do legally…she loses over half of her income and they don’t think they can make ‘ends meet’ financially. She is an evangelical Christian who refuses to live ‘in sin’. I have heard of older people facing this dilemma but never encountered it first hand. Most people would just live together and forget it. They want a Pastor to provide some counseling, preside over their ceremony exchanging vows and rings and be married before God.

I declined and told her I wasn’t absolutely sure whether or not she was on firm biblical grounds. Personally, I don’t think it’s so black and white. She’s seeking a Pastor to move ahead.

My sister has done the same thing for the same reason. Most pastors I know would have a problem with it but one that I highly respect has questioned whether a marriage needs government sanctioning in order to be valid in God's eyes.

 

[Ransom]

My sister has done the same thing for the same reason. Most pastors I know would have a problem with it but one that I highly respect has questioned whether a marriage needs government sanctioning in order to be valid in God's eyes.

Can be a double-edged sword. This woman is trying to avoid a government-recognized marriage to avoid losing benefits, but there are other benefits and rights that legally married couples have that they won't: things like guaranteed inheritance in case of intestacy (dying without a will), joint income tax filing and property transfer, next of kin and hospital visitation rights, not being compelled to testify in court against their spouse, and so forth.

 

[abcaines]

Can be a double-edged sword. This woman is trying to avoid a government-recognized marriage to avoid losing benefits, but there are other benefits and rights that legally married couples have that they won't: things like guaranteed inheritance in case of intestacy (dying without a will), joint income tax filing and property transfer, next of kin and hospital visitation rights, not being compelled to testify in court against their spouse, and so forth.

Yup. My sister is particularly vulnerable to the inheritance part. Her "husband", Len, owns the house and it's obvious that his daughter will be in charge of all estate matters when he passes. Len told me when they first got together, he had set aside provisions for my sister's care in the event of his predeceasing her which is likely given he's several years older. But without a legal marriage, that provision will only be as good as his daughter's decision when she has to settle the estate.

Being in his 80s and in frail health, Len and his daughter have a very convenient care taker on hand with my sister being there but what happens when her services are no longer required? My nephew and I have discussed this. Meanwhile, my sister is apparently living the life she's always wanted so she's not rocking the boat.

 

[ALAYMAN]

In order to “make ends meet”, could she downsize their lifestyle and liquify assets?

 

[Plowman]

If the government penalizes a person for getting married, it's the government that is in the wrong. Most likely she will become ineligible to draw her husband's Social Security that he worked a lifetime for. Denying her this is stealing from her. There's nothing wrong with showing a little civil disobedience in a case such as this. I'd marry them if I were certain that the Lord had brought them together, but they don't need a piece of paper to make it legit. If they're looking for an excuse to shack up together, that's another issue that has to be dealt with separately. Also, I've seen widows taken for everything they own by men that they fall head over heels in "love" with.

 

[abcaines]

If the government penalizes a person for getting married, it's the government that is in the wrong. Most likely she will become ineligible to draw her husband's Social Security that he worked a lifetime for. Denying her this is stealing from her. There's nothing wrong with showing a little civil disobedience in a case such as this. I'd marry them if I were certain that the Lord had brought them together, but they don't need a piece of paper to make it legit. If they're looking for an excuse to shack up together, that's another issue that has to be dealt with separately. Also, I've seen widows taken for everything they own by men that they fall head over heels in "love" with.

And that is the flip side.

This is similar to the position of the pastor I've alluded to who would perform a covenant ceremony.

 

[Ransom]

If a woman receives a benefit for being widowed, then she isn't being penalized if she loses that benefit when she remarries. She is no longer eligible.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

The lady followed up with me and has not been able to find a Pastor to perform a ‘covenant ceremony’. Turns out the gentleman is not physically able to be in a physical, intimate relationship. She wanted me to know it wasn’t just about sex!

 

[abcaines]

The lady followed up with me and has not been able to find a Pastor to perform a ‘covenant ceremony’. Turns out the gentleman is not physically able to be in a physical, intimate relationship. She wanted me to know it wasn’t just about sex!

At some point, I'm saying, TMI...

 

[Bruh]

If a woman receives a benefit for being widowed, then she isn't being penalized if she loses that benefit when she remarries. She is no longer eligible.

My mom continues to receive a portion of my dads social security and she is remarried.

 

[Plowman]

Clergy weren't involved in weddings until the 11th or 12th century. It was just another way for the church to get money from its members. If the couple knows that God wants them to be together, they should write out their reasons for being together, including their love for each other, and how their finances will be handled, then move in together. Only God can put two people together, and God doesn't require man's approval or a piece of paper signed by the state. No one but their immediate families should be involved.
In the frontier days of America, if a couple wanted to get married when no preacher was available to marry them, their parents would sign a bond, promising the bride and x amount of money if the groom left before a preacher could marry them, then, they'd "take up housekeeping" and begin living as husband and wife.