What is going on in American Churcches?

[Edwards]

I just found this announcement on the Willow Creek Church site.  What is going on?  There have been so many sexual scandals (and cover ups) that perhaps we should be crying, "Ichabod."

https://www.willowcreek.org/en/august-8-statement

 

[HereIStand]

Good question. It sometimes suggested that these scandals occur in IFB churches because of the lack of accountability. However, it seems to happening in general, whether there is institutional accountability or not. Institutional cover up of the scandals only adds to the problem.

As to why it's happening...maybe because temptation is so pervasive and living as a Christian is difficult.

 

[cpizzle]

Good question. It sometimes suggested that these scandals occur in IFB churches because of the lack of accountability. However, it seems to happening in general, whether there is institutional accountability or not. Institutional cover up of the scandals only adds to the problem.

As to why it's happening...maybe because temptation is so pervasive and living as a Christian is difficult.

Exactly!

The pastor of a large SBC church in my town was arrested several years ago for conspiring with his mistress to poison his wife on a mission trip to South America.  Can't blame HAC for that!  Sexual misconduct is a huge problem in America.  We expect the Church to be immune from it because it is part of the "platform" we stand upon.  Every Church member is still a sinner, and most of them are very carnal.  People put on a good show of "spirituality" but underneath the "fa?ade", they struggle with the vilest of temptations.

The best we can hope for is that they "walk in the Spirit" and that they "not fulfill the lusts of the flesh."

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Good question. It sometimes suggested that these scandals occur in IFB churches because of the lack of accountability. However, it seems to happening in general, whether there is institutional accountability or not. Institutional cover up of the scandals only adds to the problem.

As to why it's happening...maybe because temptation is so pervasive and living as a Christian is difficult.

I used to think the same thing until recently. It has since dawned on me, churches are showing fruition of their authoritarian and violent doctrines and practices by demonstrating power structures and the demonization of those "unlike us", both religiously and politically.

American Evangelicalism was founded in violence (Hello KKK!) and even the Southern Baptists were created to keep segregation. That was also a large part of the Christian school movement. Blacks integrated into the public schools and Christians then integrated out.

What is interesting is how these are "scandals" and "affairs". Bull hockey! This is authoritarian, predatory behavior, people in power using their position to influence others into sexual practices, either willingly or not. But then again, this goes back to the Old Testament and the favorite rapists Abraham and David.

So yeah, we are seeing the fruit of a much deeper, destructive force that wears the mask titled "American Evangelicalism".

 

[HereIStand]

Good question. It sometimes suggested that these scandals occur in IFB churches because of the lack of accountability. However, it seems to happening in general, whether there is institutional accountability or not. Institutional cover up of the scandals only adds to the problem.

As to why it's happening...maybe because temptation is so pervasive and living as a Christian is difficult.

I used to think the same thing until recently. It has since dawned on me, churches are showing fruition of their authoritarian and violent doctrines and practices by demonstrating power structures and the demonization of those "unlike us", both religiously and politically.

American Evangelicalism was founded in violence (Hello KKK!) and even the Southern Baptists were created to keep segregation. That was also a large part of the Christian school movement. Blacks integrated into the public schools and Christians then integrated out.

What is interesting is how these are "scandals" and "affairs". Bull hockey! This is authoritarian, predatory behavior, people in power using their position to influence others into sexual practices, either willingly or not. But then again, this goes back to the Old Testament and the favorite rapists Abraham and David.

So yeah, we are seeing the fruit of a much deeper, destructive force that wears the mask titled "American Evangelicalism".

Abuse and institutional cover-up can occur in any setting, secular or religious. It happened at Penn State. It happened within Catholic church. It happened in the entertainment industry in the case of Harvey Weinstein.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Good question. It sometimes suggested that these scandals occur in IFB churches because of the lack of accountability. However, it seems to happening in general, whether there is institutional accountability or not. Institutional cover up of the scandals only adds to the problem.

As to why it's happening...maybe because temptation is so pervasive and living as a Christian is difficult.

I used to think the same thing until recently. It has since dawned on me, churches are showing fruition of their authoritarian and violent doctrines and practices by demonstrating power structures and the demonization of those "unlike us", both religiously and politically.

American Evangelicalism was founded in violence (Hello KKK!) and even the Southern Baptists were created to keep segregation. That was also a large part of the Christian school movement. Blacks integrated into the public schools and Christians then integrated out.

What is interesting is how these are "scandals" and "affairs". Bull hockey! This is authoritarian, predatory behavior, people in power using their position to influence others into sexual practices, either willingly or not. But then again, this goes back to the Old Testament and the favorite rapists Abraham and David.

So yeah, we are seeing the fruit of a much deeper, destructive force that wears the mask titled "American Evangelicalism".

Abuse and institutional cover-up can occur in any setting, secular or religious. It happened at Penn State. It happened within Catholic church. It happened in the entertainment industry in the case of Harvey Weinstein.

And what do they have in common? POWER STRUCTURES. So why is American Evangelicalism patterning itself after the world it says it avoids?

Maybe Jesus had a point when he directed his followers to "call no man 'Rabbi'"...

 

[HereIStand]

Good question. It sometimes suggested that these scandals occur in IFB churches because of the lack of accountability. However, it seems to happening in general, whether there is institutional accountability or not. Institutional cover up of the scandals only adds to the problem.

As to why it's happening...maybe because temptation is so pervasive and living as a Christian is difficult.

I used to think the same thing until recently. It has since dawned on me, churches are showing fruition of their authoritarian and violent doctrines and practices by demonstrating power structures and the demonization of those "unlike us", both religiously and politically.

American Evangelicalism was founded in violence (Hello KKK!) and even the Southern Baptists were created to keep segregation. That was also a large part of the Christian school movement. Blacks integrated into the public schools and Christians then integrated out.

What is interesting is how these are "scandals" and "affairs". Bull hockey! This is authoritarian, predatory behavior, people in power using their position to influence others into sexual practices, either willingly or not. But then again, this goes back to the Old Testament and the favorite rapists Abraham and David.

So yeah, we are seeing the fruit of a much deeper, destructive force that wears the mask titled "American Evangelicalism".

Abuse and institutional cover-up can occur in any setting, secular or religious. It happened at Penn State. It happened within Catholic church. It happened in the entertainment industry in the case of Harvey Weinstein.

And what do they have in common? POWER STRUCTURES. So why is American Evangelicalism patterning itself after the world it says it avoids?

Maybe Jesus had a point when he directed his followers to "call no man 'Rabbi'"...

Power structures can't be avoided. It's the abuse of power that's the issue.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Good question. It sometimes suggested that these scandals occur in IFB churches because of the lack of accountability. However, it seems to happening in general, whether there is institutional accountability or not. Institutional cover up of the scandals only adds to the problem.

As to why it's happening...maybe because temptation is so pervasive and living as a Christian is difficult.

I used to think the same thing until recently. It has since dawned on me, churches are showing fruition of their authoritarian and violent doctrines and practices by demonstrating power structures and the demonization of those "unlike us", both religiously and politically.

American Evangelicalism was founded in violence (Hello KKK!) and even the Southern Baptists were created to keep segregation. That was also a large part of the Christian school movement. Blacks integrated into the public schools and Christians then integrated out.

What is interesting is how these are "scandals" and "affairs". Bull hockey! This is authoritarian, predatory behavior, people in power using their position to influence others into sexual practices, either willingly or not. But then again, this goes back to the Old Testament and the favorite rapists Abraham and David.

So yeah, we are seeing the fruit of a much deeper, destructive force that wears the mask titled "American Evangelicalism".

Abuse and institutional cover-up can occur in any setting, secular or religious. It happened at Penn State. It happened within Catholic church. It happened in the entertainment industry in the case of Harvey Weinstein.

And what do they have in common? POWER STRUCTURES. So why is American Evangelicalism patterning itself after the world it says it avoids?

Maybe Jesus had a point when he directed his followers to "call no man 'Rabbi'"...

Power structures can't be avoided. It's the abuse of power that's the issue.

In life, you are correct. Businesses and governments (among others) need a power structure. In the church, power structures which support authoritarian leadership/theology CAN be avoided. But that flies in the face of a history of "Christian" dominionism and thirst for control in both the religious and political realms.

 

[HereIStand]

Good question. It sometimes suggested that these scandals occur in IFB churches because of the lack of accountability. However, it seems to happening in general, whether there is institutional accountability or not. Institutional cover up of the scandals only adds to the problem.

As to why it's happening...maybe because temptation is so pervasive and living as a Christian is difficult.

I used to think the same thing until recently. It has since dawned on me, churches are showing fruition of their authoritarian and violent doctrines and practices by demonstrating power structures and the demonization of those "unlike us", both religiously and politically.

American Evangelicalism was founded in violence (Hello KKK!) and even the Southern Baptists were created to keep segregation. That was also a large part of the Christian school movement. Blacks integrated into the public schools and Christians then integrated out.

What is interesting is how these are "scandals" and "affairs". Bull hockey! This is authoritarian, predatory behavior, people in power using their position to influence others into sexual practices, either willingly or not. But then again, this goes back to the Old Testament and the favorite rapists Abraham and David.

So yeah, we are seeing the fruit of a much deeper, destructive force that wears the mask titled "American Evangelicalism".

Abuse and institutional cover-up can occur in any setting, secular or religious. It happened at Penn State. It happened within Catholic church. It happened in the entertainment industry in the case of Harvey Weinstein.

And what do they have in common? POWER STRUCTURES. So why is American Evangelicalism patterning itself after the world it says it avoids?

Maybe Jesus had a point when he directed his followers to "call no man 'Rabbi'"...

Power structures can't be avoided. It's the abuse of power that's the issue.

In life, you are correct. Businesses and governments (among others) need a power structure. In the church, power structures which support authoritarian leadership/theology CAN be avoided. But that flies in the face of a history of "Christian" dominionism and thirst for control in both the religious and political realms.

Dominionism is different from a church having a basic organizational structure.  Unless it's small or spontaneous gathering of Christians, it's hard to see how an unstructured group could meet on a regular basis. The type of structure needed can be debated. But having elders and deacons is taught in Scripture.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Good question. It sometimes suggested that these scandals occur in IFB churches because of the lack of accountability. However, it seems to happening in general, whether there is institutional accountability or not. Institutional cover up of the scandals only adds to the problem.

As to why it's happening...maybe because temptation is so pervasive and living as a Christian is difficult.

I used to think the same thing until recently. It has since dawned on me, churches are showing fruition of their authoritarian and violent doctrines and practices by demonstrating power structures and the demonization of those "unlike us", both religiously and politically.

American Evangelicalism was founded in violence (Hello KKK!) and even the Southern Baptists were created to keep segregation. That was also a large part of the Christian school movement. Blacks integrated into the public schools and Christians then integrated out.

What is interesting is how these are "scandals" and "affairs". Bull hockey! This is authoritarian, predatory behavior, people in power using their position to influence others into sexual practices, either willingly or not. But then again, this goes back to the Old Testament and the favorite rapists Abraham and David.

So yeah, we are seeing the fruit of a much deeper, destructive force that wears the mask titled "American Evangelicalism".

Abuse and institutional cover-up can occur in any setting, secular or religious. It happened at Penn State. It happened within Catholic church. It happened in the entertainment industry in the case of Harvey Weinstein.

And what do they have in common? POWER STRUCTURES. So why is American Evangelicalism patterning itself after the world it says it avoids?

Maybe Jesus had a point when he directed his followers to "call no man 'Rabbi'"...

Power structures can't be avoided. It's the abuse of power that's the issue.

In life, you are correct. Businesses and governments (among others) need a power structure. In the church, power structures which support authoritarian leadership/theology CAN be avoided. But that flies in the face of a history of "Christian" dominionism and thirst for control in both the religious and political realms.

Dominionism is different from a church having a basic organizational structure.  Unless it's small or spontaneous gathering of Christians, it's hard to see how an unstructured group could meet on a regular basis. The type of structure needed can be debated. But having elders and deacons is taught in Scripture.

Dominionism is at the core of Evangelical belief. Always has been as it is rooted in violence, expressed in authoritarian structures and teaching, militant analogies and suppression of individualism.

So what percentage in the majority of Evangelical churches are "elders and deacons" are folks of color, queer or women (Charismatic sect aside)? So having an entire board of white males, specifically in larger congregations is not evidence of dominionism?

OK, perhaps it isn't dominionism, just plain old racism and misogyny.

 

[Walt]

Good question. It sometimes suggested that these scandals occur in IFB churches because of the lack of accountability. However, it seems to happening in general, whether there is institutional accountability or not. Institutional cover up of the scandals only adds to the problem.

As to why it's happening...maybe because temptation is so pervasive and living as a Christian is difficult.

Agree as to the good question.

Perhaps lack of accountability... but that's a symptom, perhaps, of a larger problem that believers and leaders have lost the fear of God... they think they're just in a business like other ones.  They have beliefs, but not sufficient to affect behavior.

 

[FSSL]

American Evangelicalism was founded in violence (Hello KKK!) and even the Southern Baptists were created to keep segregation. That was also a large part of the Christian school movement. Blacks integrated into the public schools and Christians then integrated out.

The Southern Baptists came from the Sandy Creek Church established in 1755.

That predated the segregation and Christian school movement by nearly 200 years.

So, ?no,? the Southern Baptists were not created to keep segregation. They banded together to reach the rural farmers.

Evangelicals have led the way to abolish slavery and created black universities (American Missionary Association).

It was POLITICS, namely Democrats, that was responsible for the KKK and segregation.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

American Evangelicalism was founded in violence (Hello KKK!) and even the Southern Baptists were created to keep segregation. That was also a large part of the Christian school movement. Blacks integrated into the public schools and Christians then integrated out.

The Southern Baptists came from the Sandy Creek Church established in 1755.

That predated the segregation and Christian school movement by nearly 200 years.

So, ?no,? the Southern Baptists were not created to keep segregation. They banded together to reach the rural farmers.

Evangelicals have led the way to abolish slavery and created black universities (American Missionary Association).

It was POLITICS, namely Democrats, that was responsible for the KKK and segregation.

LOL! Looks like someone things Eric Metaxas is one of the great historians ever!

Leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention struggled to denounce white nationalism at their annual gathering in Phoenix this week. The nation?s largest Protestant denomination, which was founded in 1845 over the issue of slavery and whose leaders once championed segregation and Jim Crow laws, has made significant strides in recent years to reform its image on such matters. But when it comes to the denomination?s race relations, the past is a ghost whose haunting seems unending.

Source

The word Southern in Southern Baptist Convention stems from it having been organized in 1845 at Augusta, Georgia, by Baptists in the Southern United States who split with northern Baptists over the issue of slavery, specifically whether Southern slave owners could serve as missionaries.

Source

The Southern Baptist Convention is a force to be reckoned with. As the largest Protestant denomination in the United States, with over 45,000 affiliate churches, it have been shaping and channeling conservative Christian sensibilities since the Civil War, when Southern Baptists split from the North so they could advocate on behalf of slave owners. They fought to keep slavery and lost. Then they fought for Jim Crow laws and lost. Then they fought for segregation and lost.  Now, faced with eroding membership, the Southern Baptist leaders are fighting against irrelevance. Unfortunately, they have committed to a strategy that will make it harder for their members ? and for all of us?to move toward a future based on collaboration, compassion and practical solutions to real-world problems.

With secularism on the rise, entrepreneurial Christian denominations have evolved a variety of survival strategies.

Source

Meanwhile, by the 1840s enough prominent white Baptists in the South had ascended the social ladder into the ranks of slaveholders to merit a public, aggressive, systematic apology of black slavery on biblical grounds. Baptist elites joined white Southern Presbyterians, Methodists, Episcopals and others in championing the growing, Southern caste system of white supremacy and black slavery.

From the advocacy of white supremacy and black slavery emerged a new Baptist denomination. Foreshadowing the Civil War, white Baptists in the South withdrew fellowship from their northern counterparts on May 10, 1845, forming the Southern Baptist Convention in order to better defend the South?s practice of, and dependency upon, black slavery.

By this time, Southern white elites? defense of slavery was fully developed, led by South Carolina. The state?s Baptists were the most influential in the South, with South Carolina reigning as the heart of the slave aristocracy, its massive plantation and slave populated coastal area among the richest counties in the entire American nation.

Source

Oh, and the Dems and Reps have switched ideals when it has come to racism. The Civil Rights act in the 60's was pushed primarily by the Republicans but beginning with Goldwater, began to shift away. Thurmond saw it and being the racist he was, left the Dems. The KKK started mainly of Democrats. Today, it is primarily made up of Republicans (and Trump supporters).

Let's not forget the Reagan strategy as laid out by Lee Atwater

(CAUTION: QUOTING THE *N* WORD HERE)

You start out in 1954 by saying, ?Nigger, nigger, nigger.? By 1968 you can?t say ?nigger??that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states? rights, and all that stuff, and you?re getting so abstract. Now, you?re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you?re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.? ?We want to cut this,? is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than ?Nigger, nigger.?

The link to that entire 42 minute conversation can be found here.

History shifts. No question both parties are still racist but Republicans go out of their way to use policies to maintain white supremacy and embolden white supremacists.

 

[Edwards]

Smelling, are you saying that the Democratic party has not used the Afro-Americans of our nation in order to get votes?  If a politician really cared about the seemingly impossible situation they are in (I'm talking about the inner-city where millions of them reside) we would go back to the root of the problem (slavery and  being "freed" and not being helped in getting established).  Yes, the Democrats are quick to throw money around put do nothing to assist them out of there seemingly hopeless situation.  Black people that come from the roots of slavery are nothing more than a political football to both major political parties in the United States.  Democrats have learned to play the game better.

We are paying for the sin of slavery today by the hatred of the races.  Until our nation repents and starts making restitution we cannot expect God to heal this rift (and He is the only One that can handle this unsolvable problem).  That means reparations - not handing out money to be spent in a short time - but a long process of helping with inner-city schools and assisting with post-high school education.  As far as the drugs, gangs and fatherless homes go, I have no ideas.  What I do know is harping on the political parties is only the symptoms of the problem and does not deal with the actual disease.


Everyone...?.I'm sure my views will not be popular but I believe them to be accurate.  I read an eye opening article on what it means to be black today in the city this is a great read.  It was not intended to be an article on the hopelessness of being black in the inner-city but it speaks volumes.     

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24393541/jackie-macmullan-complex-issue-mental-health-nba-african-american-community

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Smelling, are you saying that the Democratic party has not used the Afro-Americans of our nation in order to get votes?  If a politician really cared about the seemingly impossible situation they are in (I'm talking about the inner-city where millions of them reside) we would go back to the root of the problem (slavery and  being "freed" and not being helped in getting established).  Yes, the Democrats are quick to throw money around put do nothing to assist them out of there seemingly hopeless situation.  Black people that come from the roots of slavery are nothing more than a political football to both major political parties in the United States.  Democrats have learned to play the game better.

We are paying for the sin of slavery today by the hatred of the races.  Until our nation repents and starts making restitution we cannot expect God to heal this rift (and He is the only One that can handle this unsolvable problem).  That means reparations - not handing out money to be spent in a short time - but a long process of helping with inner-city schools and assisting with post-high school education.  As far as the drugs, gangs and fatherless homes go, I have no ideas.  What I do know is harping on the political parties is only the symptoms of the problem and does not deal with the actual disease.


Everyone...?.I'm sure my views will not be popular but I believe them to be accurate.  I read an eye opening article on what it means to be black today in the city this is a great read.  It was not intended to be an article on the hopelessness of being black in the inner-city but it speaks volumes.     

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24393541/jackie-macmullan-complex-issue-mental-health-nba-african-american-community

Read the last line I wrote to summarize.

No question both parties are still racist but Republicans go out of their way to use policies to maintain white supremacy and embolden white supremacists.

Repentance as a nation needs to start with the church. Repentance as a nation starts with Christians denouncing racists like Trump instead of dining with him in celebration.

 

[Edwards]

Not to be argumentative - how has Trump shown he is a racist?  A sincere question.  He's a liar (a politician), immoral and has a big mouth (and I'm a Republican!) but I have seen no evidence of racism in him.  If you are referring to the recent book that was published by some women - consider the source and motives.  Before he ran for office no one ever thought this of him.  I am not looking to argue, just to get your take on it.

 

[prophet]

Good question. It sometimes suggested that these scandals occur in IFB churches because of the lack of accountability. However, it seems to happening in general, whether there is institutional accountability or not. Institutional cover up of the scandals only adds to the problem.

As to why it's happening...maybe because temptation is so pervasive and living as a Christian is difficult.

I used to think the same thing until recently. It has since dawned on me, churches are showing fruition of their authoritarian and violent doctrines and practices by demonstrating power structures and the demonization of those "unlike us", both religiously and politically.

American Evangelicalism was founded in violence (Hello KKK!) and even the Southern Baptists were created to keep segregation. That was also a large part of the Christian school movement. Blacks integrated into the public schools and Christians then integrated out.

What is interesting is how these are "scandals" and "affairs". Bull hockey! This is authoritarian, predatory behavior, people in power using their position to influence others into sexual practices, either willingly or not. But then again, this goes back to the Old Testament and the favorite rapists Abraham and David.

So yeah, we are seeing the fruit of a much deeper, destructive force that wears the mask titled "American Evangelicalism".

Abuse and institutional cover-up can occur in any setting, secular or religious. It happened at Penn State. It happened within Catholic church. It happened in the entertainment industry in the case of Harvey Weinstein.

And what do they have in common? POWER STRUCTURES. So why is American Evangelicalism patterning itself after the world it says it avoids?

Maybe Jesus had a point when he directed his followers to "call no man 'Rabbi'"...

Power structures can't be avoided. It's the abuse of power that's the issue.

In life, you are correct. Businesses and governments (among others) need a power structure. In the church, power structures which support authoritarian leadership/theology CAN be avoided. But that flies in the face of a history of "Christian" dominionism and thirst for control in both the religious and political realms.

Dominionism is different from a church having a basic organizational structure.  Unless it's small or spontaneous gathering of Christians, it's hard to see how an unstructured group could meet on a regular basis. The type of structure needed can be debated. But having elders and deacons is taught in Scripture.

Dominionism is at the core of Evangelical belief. Always has been as it is rooted in violence, expressed in authoritarian structures and teaching, militant analogies and suppression of individualism.

So what percentage in the majority of Evangelical churches are "elders and deacons" are folks of color, queer or women (Charismatic sect aside)? So having an entire board of white males, specifically in larger congregations is not evidence of dominionism?

OK, perhaps it isn't dominionism, just plain old racism and misogyny.

And it came from Old Dominion (Rome)

Sent from my H1611 using Tapatalk

 

[TonyHutsonComedian]

Bro Tony gives his opinion!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWGtfiWEvF4

 

[T-Bone]

Bro Tony gives his opinion!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWGtfiWEvF4

Who cares...looks like Tony needs to push away from the table a little more often.

 

[Sherryh]

that's going to leave a mark