What is Providential Preservation and where is it found in the Scriptures?

bgwilkinson

bgwilkinson

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On another thread Providential Preservation was brought up.

When it was requested that someone explain what was meant by it all we got was insults.

Now my former pastor said he believed in it but he never explained how it worked.

It seemed like it was a synonym for double inspiration or a word of knowledge used by the KJV translators to guarantee the accuracy of the KJV 1611.

If the KJV translators had this working for them why do we not have it working today when Baptists do translation work? Baptists would seem to be following the Bible more than the Anglicans.

If Baptists had tried to help Bancroft's boys those Baptists would have ended up in the Tower of London or in a fire being burned alive as hieratics. Anglicans were not fond of Baptists or for that matter anyone who did not toe the line of the Church.


So, What is Providential Preservation, where is it found in the Scriptures and how does it operate?
 
Okay, I'll start the ball rolling. Consider Psalms 12:6,7:

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." (KJV)

"The words of Jehovah are pure words; As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, Purified seven times. Thou wilt keep them, O Jehovah, Thou wilt preserve them from this generation for ever." (ASV)

"The words of the LORD are pure words, Like silver tried in a furnace of earth, Purified seven times. You shall keep them, O LORD, You shall preserve them from this generation forever." (NKJV)

"The promises of the LORD are promises that are pure, silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times. Do thou, O LORD, protect us, guard us ever from this generation." (RSV)

"Sayings of Jehovah are pure sayings; Silver tried in a furnace of earth refined sevenfold. Thou, O Jehovah, dost preserve them, Thou keepest us from this generation to the age." (YLT)

"And the words of the Lord are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible,    like gold[c] refined seven times. You, Lord, will keep the needy safe    and will protect us forever from the wicked," (NIV)

"The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times. You, O Lord, will keep them; you will guard us from this generation forever." (ESV)

"The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in an earthen furnace, purified seven times. You, Lord, will guard us;You will protect us from this generation forever." (HCSB)
Click to expand...

This is definitely speaking of providential preservation. The question is, what is being providentially preserved?
 
Citadel of Truth said:
Okay, I'll start the ball rolling. Consider Psalms 12:6,7:

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." (KJV)

"The words of Jehovah are pure words; As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, Purified seven times. Thou wilt keep them, O Jehovah, Thou wilt preserve them from this generation for ever." (ASV)

"The words of the LORD are pure words, Like silver tried in a furnace of earth, Purified seven times. You shall keep them, O LORD, You shall preserve them from this generation forever." (NKJV)

"The promises of the LORD are promises that are pure, silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times. Do thou, O LORD, protect us, guard us ever from this generation." (RSV)

"Sayings of Jehovah are pure sayings; Silver tried in a furnace of earth refined sevenfold. Thou, O Jehovah, dost preserve them, Thou keepest us from this generation to the age." (YLT)

"And the words of the Lord are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible,    like gold[c] refined seven times. You, Lord, will keep the needy safe    and will protect us forever from the wicked," (NIV)

"The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times. You, O Lord, will keep them; you will guard us from this generation forever." (ESV)

"The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in an earthen furnace, purified seven times. You, Lord, will guard us;You will protect us from this generation forever." (HCSB)
Click to expand...

This is definitely speaking of providential preservation. The question is, what is being providentially preserved?
Click to expand...

Sorry for not being more specific.

I was not referring to the preservation of the Godly as is Psa 12.

I was referring to the Word of God.
 
Many learned interpreters, Christian and Jewish, have properly seen Psalm 12 as referring to the preservation of the word of God, or of both the word of God and the poor and needy.

You reject the preservation of the word of God?  Interesting.
 
Steven Avery said:
Many learned interpreters, Christian and Jewish, have properly seen Psalm 12 as referring to the preservation of the word of God, or of both the word of God and the poor and needy.
Click to expand...

Misreading Psalm 12 is never "properly" anything, Stevie.
 
Steven Avery said:
Many learned interpreters, Christian and Jewish, have properly seen Psalm 12 as referring to the preservation of the word of God, or of both the word of God and the poor and needy.

You reject the preservation of the word of God?  Interesting.
Click to expand...

MANY is quite the overstatement. The proper interpretation finds a hugely vast majority of support.
 
Steven Avery said:
Hi,...but many are documented...
Click to expand...

I see that you would not address the fact that these "many" are in such a small minority that they have really no bearing.

All I see over there are quotes from other KJVOs and a TRO (Brandenburg). Thomas Strouse, who taught Brandenburg (and myself), made up a Hebrew grammar rule out of convenience!

One rabbi who just declared it to be thus without giving any support to his interpretation. John Gill decimated his abuse of the text.

Fact is... the passage cannot mean and has never meant that the Bible is being preserved.
 
At least you glanced at the thread.

KJVToday has an interesting counterpoint on the Hebrew grammar and the grammatical gender, the point made by John Gill contra Kimchi (historically the #1 Hebrew grammarian).

With respect to gender agreement, the grammatical gender mismatch between the masculine pronominal suffixes ("them (תשׁמרם)"/"him (תצרנו)") and the feminine "words (אמרות)" can be explained by "words" taking the masculine semantic orientation of "words", which is often used in its masculine form of "אמר (emer)".  As used in Psalm 12:6 in the construct state, "אמרות יהוה (words of the LORD)", these "words" belong to a masculine figure and therefore the "words" themselves take a semantically masculine orientation.
Click to expand...

This is something I would be happy to look into in the days ahead, I don't think it is in the thread. And my copy of of the Kent Brandenburg (editor) book traveled to Singapore. 

Yours in Jesus,
Steven Avery 
 
I'm not fishing any more. If you want to prove your point... then provide your bibliography of "many." Otherwise it is just smoke and mirrors.
 
Please, why should I go through the thread for you?

You will learn if you read it, for me it will just be review.
 
Steven Avery said:
Please, why should I go through the thread for you?
Click to expand...

If it's your point, it's not ours to prove for you. Stop being lazy and do your own homework.
 
we know he cannot... because "many" was a gross overstatement and he must divert instead of admitting he was wrong.
 
Hi,

Look, delineating the many is just your game. If I show you 10, you will say you want 25. 
Tons of info on the thread, for those who want to learn.

Steven
 
Steven Avery said:
Hi,

Look, delineating the many is just your game. If I show you 10, you will say you want 25. 
Tons of info on the thread, for those who want to learn.

Steven
Click to expand...

Ahhh!!! So there weren't many were there! I actually went through all seventeen pages just now. I find it interesting that you even include some references when they do not agree with you.

Why not just read the marginal note in the original KJV. It is quite compelling how the translators clarified their own text.

Perhaps this is a reason why Bibleprotector does not include the marginal notes! The translators do not agree with KJVO interpretations!
 
Well so far I have not seen a credible presentation of Providential Preservation.

I don't think a cherry-picked verse that has to be twisted like a pretzel is even a good start.

Of course I am referring to the Providential Preservation of the scriptures.

 
bgwilkinson said:
Well so far I have not seen a credible presentation of Providential Preservation.

Of course I am referring to the Providential Preservation of the scriptures.
Click to expand...

I guess I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for. Is there a KJVO answer that you want to debate? I believe that God has promised to preserve His Word based on the following passages:

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." Matthew 5:18

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." Matthew 24:35

"Forever, O LORD, Your word is settled in heaven." Psalm 119:89

"The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever." Psalm 119:160

"He remembers His covenant forever, The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations." Psalm 105:8

"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever." Isaiah 40:8

"having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, because "All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withers, And its flower falls away, But the word of the LORD endures forever." Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you. I Peter 1:23-25
 
None of those verses tell us where it is preserved (except in heaven it is settled).

Based on these scriptures how could I find it today as I have no present access to heaven.

Is it in a translation?

Is it in the golden pipes as Miles Smith wrote?

How can I find it?

Now the KJVO would assert that it is the KJV 1611, is that all?

What about my Swedish mother who used the Gustav Vasa version as a little girl?

What about my dad who used Luther's version as did his parents and grandparents?

Is it one or all?

The scriptures clearly revel it will be preserved.

Does the Scripture tell us where it is today on this earth?
 
Of course, all this presumes that the author's meaning when they wrote "word of God" was the same as our own.
 
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