Where are/were the fathers?

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FundNoMore

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With the current news of SBC cover up of sexual abuses, recent news of Jack Schaap release and memories of the abuses by David Hyles, I have to wonder where were the fathers of these teen girls who were abused? I mean, if the church leadership refused to address the abuse, a little privare one to one counseling between father and abuser would seem to be in order, but I have never heard of this happening.
 
Bob Jones V said:
Ignorance. They trust the leaders in their churches, and don't have the balls to hold these men accountable.
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I agree. Over the last decades we have heard preacher and evangelist demand that leadership be trusted and not criticized either publicly or privately, cue message on the "sons of Korah", to the point parents have been replaced in their responsibility and authority over their own children. Trust the "mannagawd" in everything. Time for congregations to do what leadership will not.
 
Vengeance and vigilante justice ain't the Scripturally correct position, though I understand where you're coming from and would be tempted in the flesh to do the same.
 
ALAYMAN said:
Vengeance and vigilante justice ain't the Scripturally correct position, though I understand where you're coming from and would be tempted in the flesh to do the same.
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It's neither, just the right of a father to avenge trauma to his child and to keep it from happening to another innocent one.
 
FundNoMore said:
It's neither, just the right of a father to avenge trauma to his child and to keep it from happening to another innocent one.
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Again, I understand your emotional position, and legitimately sympathize with it, but wouldn't ever try to justify such vengeance as being morally in line with Biblical ethics. Could you point me to anything Biblical that would warrant taking physical violence into one's own hands rather than allowing the Biblically appointed means of "ministers of justice" (Rom 13) to wield God's duly ordained sword?
 
ALAYMAN said:
Again, I understand your emotional position, and legitimately sympathize with it, but wouldn't ever try to justify such vengeance as being morally in line with Biblical ethics. Could you point me to anything Biblical that would warrant taking physical violence into one's own hands rather than allowing the Biblically appointed means of "ministers of justice" (Rom 13) to wield God's duly ordained sword?
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Numbers 25: 6 - 13. This was done in the presence of Moses. Moses did nothing about it, so Phinehas acted on his own and God gave Phinehas a covenant of peace.
You sound like you have been convinced to be complacent. We are all part of a royal priesthood, equal before God. God is no respecter of persons(Acts 10: 34, 35).
 
FundNoMore said:
Numbers 25: 6 - 13. This was done in the presence of Moses. Moses did nothing about it, so Phinehas acted on his own and God gave Phinehas a covenant of peace.
You sound like you have been convinced to be complacent. We are all part of a royal priesthood, equal before God. God is no respecter of persons(Acts 10: 34, 35).
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Sounds like you're going all OT on us....Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord! I WILL REPAY!
 
FundNoMore said:
With the current news of SBC cover up of sexual abuses, recent news of Jack Schaap release and memories of the abuses by David Hyles, I have to wonder where were the fathers of these teen girls who were abused? I mean, if the church leadership refused to address the abuse, a little privare one to one counseling between father and abuser would seem to be in order, but I have never heard of this happening.
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and you;re not likely to hear about it either.... even if it does happen... . .vigilante actions and retaliatory justice generally end in a situation where everybody loses and nobody wins.... leaving the church to clean up a mess that requires dropping charges against the perpetrator to avoid counter charges being filed on the angry father/husband... which then causes the church to do all they can to hide the mess caused by angry family members just to avoid embarassment ..further lawsuits... and to avoid putting the church in a predicament that could threaten it;s existence.......

before anyone takes the law into their own hands they first need to ask themselves if vengeance is worth spending the rest of their life in prison among the very same kind of people they retaliated against in the first place.... ..and who will raise their children while they are doing their time?..... even if a man only gets 5 to 7 years in prison for retaliating against a perpetrator - that is just enough time for his young teenage children to grow up without him.. and during that time they will be put at even greater risk by perpetrator types.. or the original perps friends... who want to carry out their own kind of vigilante retaliation.......

it;s not worth it..... God;s justice is much more complete and much more righteous than mans attempt to fix things could ever hope to be..... ..wait on it.... and in time you will see it.....
 
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FundNoMore said:
Numbers 25: 6 - 13. This was done in the presence of Moses. Moses did nothing about it, so Phinehas acted on his own and God gave Phinehas a covenant of peace.
You sound like you have been convinced to be complacent. We are all part of a royal priesthood, equal before God. God is no respecter of persons(Acts 10: 34, 35).
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Using Old testament passages for justification? Maybe you're really not Fundy No More.... You know what they say, you can take the boy out of Sunday but you can't take the Fundy out of the boy. 😉 And if you actually knew me at all you would know that complacency when it comes to setting things right is extremely far from my character, so much so that I have to let God speak to me in order for me to allow things to patiently develop in his time.
 
aleshanee said:
and you;re not likely to hear about it either.... even if it does happen... . .vigilante actions and retaliatory justice generally end in a situation where everybody loses and nobody wins.... leaving the church to clean up a mess that requires dropping charges against the perpetrator to avoid counter charges being filed on the angry father/husband... which then causes the church to do all they can to hide the mess caused by angry family members just to avoid embarassment ..further lawsuits... and to avoid putting the church in a predicament that could threaten it;s existence.......

before anyone takes the law into their own hands they first need to ask themselves if vengeance is worth spending the rest of their life in prison among the very same kind of people they retaliated against in the first place.... ..and who will raise their children while they are doing their time?..... even if a man only gets 5 to 7 years in prison for retaliating against a perpetrator - that is just enough time for his young teenage children to grow up without him.. and during that time they will be put at even greater risk by perpetrator types.. or the original perps friends... who want to carry out their own kind of vigilante retaliation.......

it;s not worth it..... God;s justice is much more complete and much more righteous than mans attempt to fix things could ever hope to be..... ..wait on it.... and in time you will see it.....
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There's really not much more to add after that response, and that coming from somebody who really, really, deserves if anybody does, to see Justice done when the wheels of human governmental Justice grinds so slow.
 
Why did the girls, the parents, the friends or the Pastoral staff not notify the police. The staff and teachers should all be mandatory reporters. My daughters came to me with even minor issues that might have went on in their lives. They also knew what to do if I was no longer around. They knew to go to their mom, grand parents, our pastor, and a whole list of extended family and family friends. The list of trusted people was long.

I told them if you cannot come to me for any reason then here's a whole list of people who they could trust. We talked often about what was going on in the church, school and the neighborhood. They knew at 5 no one should ever touch them in certain places or talk about certain things. The were taught what was out of bounds. When they went to the doctor we had to explain some things were ok for the doctor to do, so they did not punch or kick or claw his eyes out. Violence was permitted for my family if someone tried to abuse them. I told them that was how they should respond. They also knew they weerre to share any information about someone else being abused or physically mistreated so we could get help.

I know it's hard to come out and talk about abuse, but I do not understand at 18 why those who were abused would not go to the police. If you wait 30 years to bring it up then you waited too long. How many others could have been abused in that amount of time. I feel for every victim, but it's impossible to deal with things after 30 or 40 years.
 
I think churches of every stripe need to continue to revise church policy and procedures to protect young people. I think it is critical to create an environment the fosters accountability an encourages people to speak out when they see or hear about problems. Things must be addressed firmly and swiftly. Staff who are let go for cause should never be shuffled to another ministry. If they are found to have crossed the line then they should carry that wherever they go. The cycle must be broken the first time. If they manage to stay out of jail they should find another line of work.
 
sword said:
Why did the girls, the parents, the friends or the Pastoral staff not notify the police. The staff and teachers should all be mandatory reporters. My daughters came to me with even minor issues that might have went on in their lives. They also knew what to do if I was no longer around. They knew to go to their mom, grand parents, our pastor, and a whole list of extended family and family friends. The list of trusted people was long.

I told them if you cannot come to me for any reason then here's a whole list of people who they could trust. We talked often about what was going on in the church, school and the neighborhood. They knew at 5 no one should ever touch them in certain places or talk about certain things. The were taught what was out of bounds. When they went to the doctor we had to explain some things were ok for the doctor to do, so they did not punch or kick or claw his eyes out. Violence was permitted for my family if someone tried to abuse them. I told them that was how they should respond. They also knew they weerre to share any information about someone else being abused or physically mistreated so we could get help.

I know it's hard to come out and talk about abuse, but I do not understand at 18 why those who were abused would not go to the police. If you wait 30 years to bring it up then you waited too long. How many others could have been abused in that amount of time. I feel for every victim, but it's impossible to deal with things after 30 or 40 years.
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fear keeps them quiet at first... and later shame takes over... and in time shame will grow stronger than the fear was..... . i was only a child but my mom kept me quiet by telling me we would all suffer if the truth came out... but i would be the one who suffered most... i didn;t know what was happening was wrong at first... but within a year of realizing how wrong it was i became so afraid of her i would have gone to my death before i said anything.... .. and that is almost what i did.... i collapsed at school and was taken by ambulance to the hospital where i came very close to dying... .and under care of emergency room staff i didn;t have to talk.... the story of what happened told itself....my own body told it.... but while still recovering from surgery and while being questioned in a hearing before a judge i suddenly lost the ability to keep secrets... ..the flood gates opened and i started telling everything... and i haven;t shut up since... ...

i do try to keep some things to myself as best i can...especially around people i might not trust... or if i think they would be better off not knowing ..(a skill in descretion i had to learn slowly over several years)... ...but if people press me... or ask too many questions... or start to wonder why i seem to be out there somewhere they have never been.. . then i tell them why... and i will usually tell them as much as they are willing to hear... until they tell me to stop.... if they don;t stop me they eventually learn about something else i lost when i lost my ability to keep secrets.... my sense of shame..... it;s hard to have shame anymore when your insides are pulled out and thrown away... and pictures passed around in court....

my advise to people wanting to help someone is to go to the police..... let them start an investigation.... ....as a child or teeanger.. even as a young adult.. it is very possible someone has already successfully threatened or shamed her to silence... ....as a mature and God fearing adult don;t let them silence you as well..
 
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Now the days of David drew nigh that he should die; and he charged Solomon his son, saying, I go the way of all the earth: be thou strong therefore, and shew thyself a man"
I'm afraid that this has been preached out of many Christian males today.
 
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