Why Do Calvinists Bother to Preach or Pray?

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I grew up a "free willer" but have since realized that if Biblical things were to be true at all, it is so obvious that He does indeed, choose certain ones. And if that's so, I also, don't understand the need for evangelism but I do understand the need for edification of the chosen.
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Ekklesian said:
Love.

Love for his God, and for his neighbor.
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Ekklesian,
Is the URL in your signature your site? Its wording sort of puts things in perspective; rather frightening what's going on.
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but do calvinists believe in the power of prayer to change things?..... or is it simply an act of obedience for the purposes of edification?..... we all should pray for our loved ones and neighbors... and also to give thanks to God and to show our love for Him..... ...but i also believe and know.. both in my heart and also from experience ... that prayer can and does change things... and it;s also through prayer that God helps us to understand why some things will not change... and so we ask for strength to endure them or give them up to Him according to His will....
 
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aleshanee said:
but do calvinists believe in the power of prayer to change things?..... or is it simply an act of obedience for the purposes of edification?..... we all should pray for our loved ones and neighbors... and also to give thanks to God and to show our love for Him..... ...but i also believe and know.. both in my heart and also from experience ... that prayer can change things.....
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I can only speak for myself. And I speak from a position of not being certain. I don't really know. But I suspect.

When I was a young teenager, I once bought a book called "Prayer: Asking and Receiving" by Dr John R Rice. I remember reading that book and being so excited. He believed that indeed, God wants us to pray and that He wants to answer our prayers. He told how one time, he had prayed for a certain amount and in the mail came that amount. And so, I believed that for so long.

And I can't remember his name but I'm sure someone can remind me of the name of the man who lived in England and ran orphanages and relied on God for their upkeep by daily offerings for which he prayed to God.

But I don't see how that is possible if everything has been determined "at the appointed time" in ages past. The very act of prophecy shows that things are planned to happen. I no longer see why prayer is necessary if God has already determined before hand every event - even that of the little sparrow.

I'm not refuting you and your experience with prayer. I'm just saying that I don't understand how both can be possible. If everything has been preordained by God, perhaps he determined before hand to allow you to pray for something and that He would then grant it?
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As it is probably well-known to forum members, I am a Calvinist of the full 5 point variety.

I pray, daily for my family and see God working in remarkable ways. I could not imagine praying without a Calvinistic theology.

I ask God to work in their lives. If God is not in charge of every single molecule, what kind of hope would I have?
 
Gringo said:
When I was a young teenager, I once bought a book called "Prayer: Asking and Receiving" by Dr John R Rice.
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I read that book years ago and remember not particularly caring for it because to me, he reduced prayer to a transaction between us and God. He wants to bless us but holds back until we have petitioned Him adequately. I remember John R. relaying in the book about counseling a man who was trying to quit smoking. Basically, the man was struggling to quit because he wasn't paying enough. Kinda reminded me of the prosperity gospel... get what you want by showing enough faith.
 
FSSL said:
As it is probably well-known to forum members, I am a Calvinist of the full 5 point variety.

I pray, daily for my family and see God working in remarkable ways. I could not imagine praying without a Calvinistic theology.

I ask God to work in their lives. If God is not in charge of every single molecule, what kind of hope would I have?
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Would you mind explaining the 5 points of Calvinism
And don't be Tiny Tim and "tip toe" around the tulips.
Perhaps, I've misunderstood what a Calvinist is.
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abcaines said:
I read that book years ago and remember not particularly caring for it because to me, he reduced prayer to a transaction between us and God. He wants to bless us but holds back until we have petitioned Him adequately. I remember John R. relaying in the book about counseling a man who was trying to quit smoking. Basically, the man was struggling to quit because he wasn't paying enough. Kinda reminded me of the prosperity gospel... get what you want by showing enough faith.
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I don't know what you are talking about
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Gringo said:
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I can only speak for myself. And I speak from a position of not being certain. I don't really know. But I suspect.

When I was a young teenager, I once bought a book called "Prayer: Asking and Receiving" by Dr John R Rice. I remember reading that book and being so excited. He believed that indeed, God wants us to pray and that He wants to answer our prayers. He told how one time, he had prayed for a certain amount and in the mail came that amount. And so, I believed that for so long.

And I can't remember his name but I'm sure someone can remind me of the name of the man who lived in England and ran orphanages and relied on God for their upkeep by daily offerings for which he prayed to God.

But I don't see how that is possible if everything has been determined "at the appointed time" in ages past. The very act of prophecy shows that things are planned to happen. I no longer see why prayer is necessary if God has already determined before hand every event - even that of the little sparrow.

I'm not refuting you and your experience with prayer. I'm just saying that I don't understand how both can be possible. If everything has been preordained by God, perhaps he determined before hand to allow you to pray for something and that He would then grant it?
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let me explain some of what i mean when i say i prayed for things to change... and some things did.... i never asked for anything specific to be given to me... i already knew where a bible was and i went and got it - and started reading it.... . but after i was saved i began praying to get out of the life i was in... for God to stop what was happening... i was beginning to realize it was not only wrong... but that it was evil and abhorent to God... . and i prayed to find my real father.... not necessarily to have him in my life... (unless he turned out to be good)... but just to know who he was.... who knows... my mom might have been telling the truth somewhere in all the lies she told about who he had been.... i just wanted to know for certain.... it was mostly things like that at first.... later on more specific things... but not material things... and nothing i knew God had already given me the ability to do something about.... but i did pray that He would guide me as i went about them..... ...

in the following months after being saved my life changed dramatically... in ways i could not have imagined .... and in ways i would not have chosen had i known what they were going to be....in the end it all led me to what and where i am now.... which is a life i would have definitely chosen looking back and knowing what the alternatives could have been.... . and instead of finding out who my real father was i was given someone else much better... and given the courage to do what i had to do, to make certain i was in his life as much as i believed he was meant to be in mine.... in that regard i know God guided me and literally moved me in directions He wanted me to go... ...

but as far as the legacy of what was done to me as a child and the damage it left me with.. both in regards to physical damage... mental and emotional illnesses... plus other internal things concerning drives and temptations common to people who went through what i did.... those did not change..... they are all still the part of me i have to continually deny and give up to God daily... even hourly...or in some cases simply endure... . God does not change us into perfect beings upon salvation or simply for the asking... not in this life.... . but He does make us able to follow Him... and can give us the courage to do it.... i still pray for that all the time... .

i never read any books by john rice... but i agree with abcaines that what he taught sounds like prosperity gospel... and personally i would have told the smoking guy to just go volunteer in a hosptial cancer ward if he needed the proper motivation to quit smoking.... . not that God couldn;t make him stop... but i just don;t think it;s right to pray for things God has already put within our power to do..... .. and i also don;t believe everything is preordained.... God does know everything that will happen... and has decided He will allow those things to happen.....

but whereas we live in a limited timeline God sees and inhabits the entire timeline... from start to finish.... sometimes prophets are given visions - small parts of what God has seen.. if they are true prophets then those are things that will happen... .. but there is no way we as mortal humans can know or understand how God does things.... or even why.... things that man cannot even imagine or figure out in his own mind are entirely possible for God.... He is much bigger than any mans ability to figure Him out or define Him.... God made man in His image... but ever since then it seems man has been trying to remake God into the image of man.... i see a lot of fringe..extremist movements.. and extra biblical doctrines as men trying to do that.... the thoughts and desires men had at the tower of babel never left them....
 
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Gringo said:
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Would you mind explaining the 5 points of Calvinism
And don't be Tiny Tim and "tip toe" around the tulips.
Perhaps, I've misunderstood what a Calvinist is.
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Calvinist theology, at its core, recognizes the limitless, absolute Sovereignty of God.

As it relates to His Sovereignty over the universe: There is not a single molecule outside of His control. Romans 11.6: "For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen."

As it relates to His Sovereignty for our salvation: No one seeks Him. Romans 3.10-12 "As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one'.” (quoting Psalm 14, 53 and Ecc 7.20)

As it relates to His Sovereignty in living out our life: "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." Romans 8.28; Philippians 1.6

.... and more could be added... unfortunately, those who reject Calvinism, typically do so because of one item, so-called "free will of man" (which is not a phrase used in Scripture)
 
Gringo said:
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And I can't remember his name but I'm sure someone can remind me of the name of the man who lived in England and ran orphanages and relied on God for their upkeep by daily offerings for which he prayed to God.
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George Muller
Gringo said:
But I don't see how that is possible if everything has been determined "at the appointed time" in ages past. The very act of prophecy shows that things are planned to happen. I no longer see why prayer is necessary if God has already determined before hand every event - even that of the little sparrow.
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I’m not going to be overly wordy here (though a deep matter such as prayer deserves it) but a simple fundamental reason to pray is because He commands it.

Why pray?
 
aleshanee said:
but do calvinists believe in the power of prayer to change things?
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Yes. As God commanded the earth to bring forth the living creatures, and the earth obeyed. (How could it not?)

It is not the dry and sterile act of obedience, but the glorious passion of being called to play a role in the Work of Redemption, which is all His Work.
 
aleshanee said:
let me explain some of what i mean when i say i prayed for things to change... and some things did.... i never asked for anything specific to be given to me... i already knew where a bible was and i went and got it - and started reading it.... . but after i was saved i began praying to get out of the life i was in... for God to stop what was happening... i was beginning to realize it was not only wrong... but that it was evil and abhorent to God... . and i prayed to find my real father.... not necessarily to have him in my life... (unless he turned out to be good)... but just to know who he was.... who knows... my mom might have been telling the truth somewhere in all the lies she told about who he had been.... i just wanted to know for certain.... it was mostly things like that at first.... years later more specific things... but not material things... and nothing i knew God had already given me the ability to do something about.... but i did pray that He would guide me as i went about them..... ...

in the following months after being saved my life changed dramatically... in ways i could not have imagined .... and in ways i would not have chosen had i known what they were going to be....in the end it all led me to what and where i am now.... which is a life i would have definitely chosen looking back and knowing what the alternatives could have been.... . and instead of finding out who my real father was i was given someone else much better... and given the courage to do what i had to do, to make certain i was in his life as much as i believed he was meant to be in mine.... in that regard i know God guided me and literally moved me in directions He wanted me to go... ...

but as far as the legacy of what was done to me as a child and the damage it left me with.. both in regards to physical damage... mental and emotional illnesses... plus other internal things concerning drives and temptations common to people who went through what i did.... those did not change..... they are all still the part of me i have to continually deny and give up to God daily... even hourly...or in some cases simply endure... . God does not change us into perfect beings upon salvation or simply for the asking... not in this life.... . but He does make us able to follow Him... and can give us the courage to do it.... i still pray for that all the time... .

i never read any books by john rice... but i agree with abcaines that what he taught sounds like prosperity gospel... and personally i would have told the smoking guy to just go volunteer in a hosptial cancer ward if he needed the proper motivation to quit smoking.... . not that God couldn;t make him stop... but i just don;t think it;s right to pray for things God has already put within our power to do..... .. and i also don;t believe everything is preordained.... God does know everything that will happen... and has decided He will allow those things to happen.....

but whereas we live in a limited timeline God sees and inhabits the entire timeline... from start to finish.... sometimes prophets are given visions - small parts of what God has seen.. if they are true prophets then those are things that will happen... .. but there is no way we as mortal humans can know or understand how God does things.... or even why.... things that man cannot even imagine or figure out in his own mind are entirely possible for God.... He is much bigger than any mans ability to figure Him out or define Him.... God made man in His image... but ever since then it seems man has been trying to remake God into the image of man.... i see a lot of fringe..extremist movements.. and extra biblical doctrines as men trying to do that.... the thoughts and desires men had at the tower of babel never left them....
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Before I get to the meat of the matter - the important parts, I just want to say that Dr Rice was SO FAR removed from a prosperity preacher. He was a simple little man that lived in a white frame house on a small farm. He never preached that God wants to make you rich. What he did preach was that God wants to answer your prayers - precisely. His example of the money in the mail was not to emphasize the money but to emphasize receiving the exact money that he asked for. He lived a life of consistency and simplicity.

Anyway, I agree with you that God is "much bigger than any man's ability to figure Him out or define Him". That's why I stopped long ago. I have no idea about God or His thinking.

I'm glad that you were able to find your forever father and sister, there in Hawaii. I'm also glad that you have such a strong belief in God. I know your father has been a great testimony and help to you and I truly am happy that your life - even with its continual problems - has turned out so good for you. And you have been a continual consistent presence for others on this forum. You have had such more than me, a problem challenged life and yet, you have come out of it with your faith much stronger than mine. And I am so sure that you are just as great and consistent in person with those around you as you are here. I know that your sister must be very proud of you (and your father). I won't go into the theological issues in this post but I did want to say . . .

Too bad God doesn't allow female preachers because you'd be a force to be reckoned with.
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Gringo said:
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Before I get to the meat of the matter - the important parts, I just want to say that Dr Rice was SO FAR removed from a prosperity preacher. He was a simple little man that lived in a white frame house on a small farm. He never preached that God wants to make you rich. What he did preach was that God wants to answer your prayers - precisely. His example of the money in the mail was not to emphasize the money but to emphasize receiving the exact money that he asked for. He lived a life of consistency and simplicity.

Anyway, I agree with you that God is "much bigger than any man's ability to figure Him out or define Him". That's why I stopped long ago. I have no idea about God or His thinking.

I'm glad that you were able to find your forever father and sister, there in Hawaii. I'm also glad that you have such a strong belief in God. I know your father has been a great testimony and help to you and I truly am happy that your life - even with its continual problems - has turned out so good for you. And you have been a continual consistent presence for others on this forum. You have had such more than me, a problem challenged life and yet, you have come out of it with your faith much stronger than mine. And I am so sure that you are just as great and consistent in person with those around you as you are here. I know that your sister must be very proud of you (and your father). I won't go into the theological issues in this post but I did want to say . . .

Too bad God doesn't allow female preachers because you'd be a force to be reckoned with.
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thank you.... and thanks for the vote of confidence and kind words..... that means a lot to me.... :) ....i am not sure how i would be as a preacher though... ..just the thought of having a responsibility like that is overwhelming... o_O...

my dad was saved in the church john rice started in shamrock texas.... and he says the same things about him you do.... he greatly admired him.... but other than that and what forum members like you have said, i really don;t know much about him...
but i do know there is a great comfort in living a life of consistency and simplicity.. when possible.... and that he was able to do that is very admirable.... ... .....

for me it would have been hard to pray for precise and exact things like he taught... because. .. for one... i never knew exactly what i wanted... with me prayer was more of knowing what i didn;t want happening my life and asking for help to get away from it.... and also praying to be able to recognize that help when it comes.... ....for many years my prayers most often were just to be normal... both inside and out... for God to guide my steps keep me where He wanted me to be.... and help me find the right words to say when i needed them.... ..just to be with me or keep me with Him as a permanent presence....

finding the family i live with was without a doubt the best thing that ever happened in my life.... in fact they saved my life.... and was definitely an answer to prayer... but it was not something i envisioned or prayed for precisely..... i met my dad through a very traumatic and tragic event and got to know his daughter - who would become my sister ...when i started spending time at the firestation.... .i could never have imagined God answering my prayers for help in that way... . but when i saw it i recognized it.. ..and then God literally started moving me towards them.... like it says in scripture God knows what things we need before we even ask for them.. and before we even know we need them ourselves.....

when i first got saved and found the old bible in our storage room i actually started reading it with the book of matthew ... and pretty quickly came across the sermon on the mount... i tried to take every word of it to heart.... what Jesus taught about prayer and trusting God really stuck with me....

i pray you won;t give up on God and on finding salvation... and i agree with those here who say God has not yet given up on you.... no matter what our condition as long as we are still alive there is hope for us.....
 
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