Why Do Calvinists Think They Have Superior Theology?

[AverageJoe]

Eisegesis? I just posted Scripture. You wont even admnit that the passage presents God as Sovereign and that the mind is hostile to God.

So much for the nonBible phrase "free will"

Your repeating the same lie doesn't make it through. CLAVINISM (sorry, couldn't resist, Cliffy) isn't mentioned in the Bible either. Nobody is stating the passage says anything other. Yet, all are free to interpret the Bible, not just you. Get over yourself.

 

[AverageJoe]

You de

I am on the side that believes God is 100% Sovereign all of the time. He does not give up a part of His Sovereignty to accomodate man.

You defend the others and you cannot understand the phrase "Ultimate Sovereign."

Its not a problem on my side as to the confusion.

The devil it isn't.....

 

[AverageJoe]

I've never seen people stumble over the meaning of the word "Sovereign." I have seen plenty stumble over the implications and significance of the term. They accidentally prove that they know the meaning by suggesting that God will limit his Sovereignty to give man an ability to use his own "free will."

Your so full of manure your eyes are changing colors....I sincerely doubt you've met any that say God sets a part of his Sovereignty aside. That's, again, YOUR interpretation. Sad really that you continue to prevaricate.

 

[Ransom]

If you don't understand plain English, Scott, I can't help you. Blame your Canadian school system!

I do understand plain English--including the fact that one word or term may have multiple meanings. I want to know which definition of "free will" you are using.

 

[AverageJoe]

I do understand plain English--including the fact that one word or term may have multiple meanings. I want to know which definition of "free will" you are using.

Give me a multiple-choice option. I'm not stepping into one of your asinine Canadian landmines! If they are good enough options, I may help you out! LOL

 

[FSSL]

Many things aren't found in the Bible by name, but, the principles are there. Maybe you should learn how to stop putting your opinions above what is real.

The Bible clearly says we are "dead" and "hostile"... so, why do you think "free will of man" is a principle?

Your opinions are real, but they are not biblical.

 

[AverageJoe]

Choose you this day....this is just one....God gave Pharoah a choice..Pharoah hardened his heart THEN God hardened his heart....The principle is there in the OT, and even in the new. Not just my opinion..
Lets ADD Matthew 23:37...God gave Israel a choice, they didn't take it.

 

[FSSL]

Read this link consisting of tens of thousands of words by notable preachers and theologians, a great many of whom are Calvinists, and other than the hyper-Calvinist JC Philpot please show me from these voluminous writings/commentaries where your concept of dealing with the matter of freewill is referenced.

I read it. Nothing in there I would disagree with. Jump down to verse 21 and tell us how any of them support "free will" https://www.preceptaustin.org/colossians_121-23#1:21

All I see is the mind being hostile, alienated, estranged, enemies,.... and a lot of other excellent ways of describing a will that is far from free.

 

[FSSL]

Choose you this day....this is just one....God gave Pharoah a choice..Pharoah hardened his heart THEN God hardened his heart....The principle is there in the OT, and even in the new. Not just my opinion..
Lets ADD Matthew 23:37...God gave Israel a choice, they didn't take it.

How free is the will of man when it cannot and will not choose God? All you are doing is proving that without God removing Pharoah's hostility, Pharaoh behaved exactly what the rest of Scripture tells us... If man has a free will, it will never choose God.

God hardened Pharaoh’s heart

• 4.21 I will harden his heart.
• 7.3 I will harden Pharaoh’s heart.
• 9.12 The Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
• 10.1 I have hardened his heart.
• 10.20 The Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
• 10.27 The LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
• 11.10 The Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
• 14.4 I will harden Pharaoh’s heart.
• 14.8 The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh.
• 14.17 I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians.

Pharaoh hardened his own heart

• 8.15 He [Pharaoh] hardened his heart.
• 8.32 Pharaoh hardened his heart.
• 9.34 He and his officials hardened their hearts.
• 13.15 Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go.

Pharaoh’s heart became hardened

• 7.13 Pharaoh’s heart became hardened.
• 7.14 Pharaoh’s heart is unyielding.
• 7.22 Pharaoh’s heart became hardened.
• 8.19 Pharaoh’s heart was hard.
• 9.7 His heart was unyielding.
• 9.35 Pharaoh’s heart was hard.

God gives both the evil man and good man knowledge of Himself (Ro 1.21). It is common grace that restrains the evil heart (Ps 76.10).

 

[AverageJoe]

I read it. Nothing in there I would disagree with. Jump down to verse 21 and tell us how any of them support "free will" https://www.preceptaustin.org/colossians_121-23#1:21

All I see is the mind being hostile, alienated, estranged, enemies,.... and a lot of other excellent ways of describing a will that is far from free.

None of those things negate man's free will. That's a ridiculous belief.

 

[FSSL]

None of those things negate man's free will. That's a ridiculous belief.

So, a will that is hostile, alienated, estranged, enemies and even dead is "free?"

 

[AverageJoe]

How free is the will of man when it cannot and will not choose God? All you are doing is proving that without God removing Pharoah's hostility, Pharaoh behaved exactly what the rest of Scripture tells us... If man has a free will, it will never choose God.

God hardened Pharaoh’s heart

• 4.21 I will harden his heart.
• 7.3 I will harden Pharaoh’s heart.
• 9.12 The Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
• 10.1 I have hardened his heart.
• 10.20 The Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
• 10.27 The LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
• 11.10 The Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
• 14.4 I will harden Pharaoh’s heart.
• 14.8 The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh.
• 14.17 I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians.

Pharaoh hardened his own heart

• 8.15 He [Pharaoh] hardened his heart.
• 8.32 Pharaoh hardened his heart.
• 9.34 He and his officials hardened their hearts.
• 13.15 Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go.

Pharaoh’s heart became hardened

• 7.13 Pharaoh’s heart became hardened.
• 7.14 Pharaoh’s heart is unyielding.
• 7.22 Pharaoh’s heart became hardened.
• 8.19 Pharaoh’s heart was hard.
• 9.7 His heart was unyielding.
• 9.35 Pharaoh’s heart was hard.

God gives both the evil man and good man knowledge of Himself (Ro 1.21). It is common grace that restrains the evil heart (Ps 76.10).

Yes, many do indeed harden their heart...yet many turn to Christ. The choice is always present. Calvinist seem to like limiting God to what they think he's saying. That's their downfall.

 

[AverageJoe]

So, a will that is hostile, alienated, estranged, enemies and even dead is "free?"

You're applying something that isn't there. Yes, man is dead in trespasses and sin, and is alienated from God...but, I don't see anywhere where this negates free will. IF it does, then God didn't create man in his own image and likeness. Sorry....no cigar, FSSL

 

[ALAYMAN]

I read it. Nothing in there I would disagree with. Jump down to verse 21 and tell us how any of them support "free will" https://www.preceptaustin.org/colossians_121-23#1:21

All I see is the mind being hostile, alienated, estranged, enemies,.... and a lot of other excellent ways of describing a will that is far from free.

We probably had a miscommunication here. When I recently ask you to take a look at an embedded link, it was this one.

The hyperlink that you are referring to from way back earlier in this thread was in regards to your citation of Col 1:17, but I won’t dispute that the Calvinist commentaries from precept Austin would interpret verse 21 in the sense that you are speaking of. My point at the time you brought verse 17 into this discussion was that you were not using verse 17 appropriately (thus the “shoehorning” comment).

 

[The Real Holy Mole]

Did Adam have a choice on whether or not he would eat the forbidden fruit?

 

[Ransom]

Give me a multiple-choice option.

I will do that if you insist, but why can't you tell me yourself what you mean when you write "free will"?

When people refuse to define their own terms (or pretend they need my help to do it), and instead hem and haw about it as you've just been doing, I wonder why they want to remain ambiguous..

Spoiler

A few examples, off the top of my head:

1. "Free will," as in a "freewill offering," meaning it is voluntary rather than mandatory.
2. "Free will" meaning acting under one's own volition--doing what one wants rather than being "programmed."
3. "Free will" meaning an autonomous will, equally capable (for example) of accepting Christ or rejecting him.

 

[Ransom]

None of those things negate man's free will. That's a ridiculous belief.

So when the Bible describes a man as "dead," "blind," "lost," "imprisoned," and so forth because of sin, what does that mean for the man?

(And no, I'm not going to answer for you.)

 

[Baptist Renegade]

Did Adam have a choice on whether or not he would eat the forbidden fruit?

Tell you what, rather than me answering this for you, how about you producing one BONA-FIDE Calvinist who actually believes Adam DID NOT have a free will (had no choice in the matter) to eat the forbidden fruit?

Just one will suffice.

EDIT: Oops! I may have inadvertently answered your question but then again this guy already had it figured out so...

 

[FSSL]

Yes, many do indeed harden their heart...yet many turn to Christ. The choice is always present. Calvinist seem to like limiting God to what they think he's saying. That's their downfall.

You interjected Pharaoh. I am not limiting God. He hardened Pharaoh's heart and Pharaoh was happy in his hostility. He had no freedom of the will. He was enslaved by his own nature. God did not see fit to remove the hostility. It was God's will that Pharaoh was raised up to be destroyed.

For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g]18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us?For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?

I ask you, why are you talking back to God? Why is the protection of man's so-called free will so important that God's Sovereignty needs to diminish?

 

[FSSL]

The hyperlink that you are referring to from way back earlier in this thread was in regards to your citation of Col 1:17, but I won’t dispute that the Calvinist commentaries from precept Austin would interpret verse 21 in the sense that you are speaking of. My point at the time you brought verse 17 into this discussion was that you were not using verse 17 appropriately (thus the “shoehorning” comment).

All I said about verse 17 is that it speaks of God's Sovereignty. There was no shoehorning.