Why I Am Leaving The Church Growth Movement

[christundivided]

Jesus healed without even telling people who He was.

Healing them demonstrated who He was for those with eyes to see.  I agree with your point, though.

No doubt. But like Mathew Ward said earlier, our works themselves glorify God.

There wasn't anyone who didn't know who He.... claimed to be. While they may have not known at the very moment.... they found pretty quick.

Either way, to your point. I remember when "pizza" revivals became popular. The typical evangelist would throw a free pizza party to generate attendance. I can remember attending one these "pizza parties" in which they locked the doors and precede to force everyone in attendance to "hear the Gospel".... I couldn't help but question the honesty of those who organized the event.

I don't think everyone knew who is was or who he claimed to be.

Do you have a particular group of people in mind or are you referencing little babies and the mentally ill?

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

This doesn't change the rumors concerning his claim to be the Son of God? It was pretty obvious that's the main issue everyone would eventually have an issue with.

 

[Mathew Ward]

Jesus healed without even telling people who He was.

Healing them demonstrated who He was for those with eyes to see.  I agree with your point, though.

No doubt. But like Mathew Ward said earlier, our works themselves glorify God.

There wasn't anyone who didn't know who He.... claimed to be. While they may have not known at the very moment.... they found pretty quick.

Either way, to your point. I remember when "pizza" revivals became popular. The typical evangelist would throw a free pizza party to generate attendance. I can remember attending one these "pizza parties" in which they locked the doors and precede to force everyone in attendance to "hear the Gospel".... I couldn't help but question the honesty of those who organized the event.

I don't think everyone knew who is was or who he claimed to be.

Do you have a particular group of people in mind or are you referencing little babies and the mentally ill?

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

This doesn't change the rumors concerning his claim to be the Son of God? It was pretty obvious that's the main issue everyone would eventually have an issue with.

It's ok to say you were mistaken, wrong or didn't think of that verse.

If you would like to point out where those men claimed to know of a rumor of his claim to be the son of God, I would love to see the reference. This was his disciples understanding of who the men thought he was.

But I do agree with you that each and every person has to come to a conclusion about Christ. Liar, lunatic or Lord.

 

[subllibrm]

Smellin Coffee:
And when Jesus said to help those impoverished, did He mention we are to do so solely in the context of evangelism? Not saying at all that it is wrong to evangelize in such situations, just wondering where such benevolence was expected in an effort to evangelize. And if so, was it done that way in the OT?

If we care enough to meet their basic needs of food, clothing and shelter, WHY would we not share with them how they can escape hell?
"I love you but only enough to make you more comfortable on your way to hell"?!
Please.

That isn't how I took his comments.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Smellin Coffee:
And when Jesus said to help those impoverished, did He mention we are to do so solely in the context of evangelism? Not saying at all that it is wrong to evangelize in such situations, just wondering where such benevolence was expected in an effort to evangelize. And if so, was it done that way in the OT?

If we care enough to meet their basic needs of food, clothing and shelter, WHY would we not share with them how they can escape hell?
"I love you but only enough to make you more comfortable on your way to hell"?!
Please.

That isn't how I took his comments.

That's OK. He likes to spin. Prolly got the talent from watching Fox News.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Smellin Coffee:
And when Jesus said to help those impoverished, did He mention we are to do so solely in the context of evangelism? Not saying at all that it is wrong to evangelize in such situations, just wondering where such benevolence was expected in an effort to evangelize. And if so, was it done that way in the OT?

If we care enough to meet their basic needs of food, clothing and shelter, WHY would we not share with them how they can escape hell?
"I love you but only enough to make you more comfortable on your way to hell"?!
Please.

That isn't how I took his comments.

That's OK. He likes to spin. Prolly got the talent from watching Fox News.

No spin, just the obvious question, WHY NOT attach some type evangelism with your 'help the poor' efforts?
If not, you are merely making them comfortable as they travel the broad way that leads to destruction.
Let your good works glorify God...

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Smellin Coffee:
And when Jesus said to help those impoverished, did He mention we are to do so solely in the context of evangelism? Not saying at all that it is wrong to evangelize in such situations, just wondering where such benevolence was expected in an effort to evangelize. And if so, was it done that way in the OT?

If we care enough to meet their basic needs of food, clothing and shelter, WHY would we not share with them how they can escape hell?
"I love you but only enough to make you more comfortable on your way to hell"?!
Please.

That isn't how I took his comments.

Which, I assume, is why you didn't respond the way I did. 

 

[christundivided]

Jesus healed without even telling people who He was.

Healing them demonstrated who He was for those with eyes to see.  I agree with your point, though.

No doubt. But like Mathew Ward said earlier, our works themselves glorify God.

There wasn't anyone who didn't know who He.... claimed to be. While they may have not known at the very moment.... they found pretty quick.

Either way, to your point. I remember when "pizza" revivals became popular. The typical evangelist would throw a free pizza party to generate attendance. I can remember attending one these "pizza parties" in which they locked the doors and precede to force everyone in attendance to "hear the Gospel".... I couldn't help but question the honesty of those who organized the event.

I don't think everyone knew who is was or who he claimed to be.

Do you have a particular group of people in mind or are you referencing little babies and the mentally ill?

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

This doesn't change the rumors concerning his claim to be the Son of God? It was pretty obvious that's the main issue everyone would eventually have an issue with.

It's ok to say you were mistaken, wrong or didn't think of that verse.

If you would like to point out where those men claimed to know of a rumor of his claim to be the son of God, I would love to see the reference. This was his disciples understanding of who the men thought he was.

But I do agree with you that each and every person has to come to a conclusion about Christ. Liar, lunatic or Lord.

I can say I was "mistaken, wrong or didn't think of that verse"....  However, that is not the case.

Maybe you might remember a verse from Acts 26...

Act 26:26  For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.

 

[Mathew Ward]

Jesus healed without even telling people who He was.

Healing them demonstrated who He was for those with eyes to see.  I agree with your point, though.

No doubt. But like Mathew Ward said earlier, our works themselves glorify God.

There wasn't anyone who didn't know who He.... claimed to be. While they may have not known at the very moment.... they found pretty quick.

Either way, to your point. I remember when "pizza" revivals became popular. The typical evangelist would throw a free pizza party to generate attendance. I can remember attending one these "pizza parties" in which they locked the doors and precede to force everyone in attendance to "hear the Gospel".... I couldn't help but question the honesty of those who organized the event.

I don't think everyone knew who is was or who he claimed to be.

Do you have a particular group of people in mind or are you referencing little babies and the mentally ill?

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

This doesn't change the rumors concerning his claim to be the Son of God? It was pretty obvious that's the main issue everyone would eventually have an issue with.

It's ok to say you were mistaken, wrong or didn't think of that verse.

If you would like to point out where those men claimed to know of a rumor of his claim to be the son of God, I would love to see the reference. This was his disciples understanding of who the men thought he was.

But I do agree with you that each and every person has to come to a conclusion about Christ. Liar, lunatic or Lord.

I can say I was "mistaken, wrong or didn't think of that verse"....  However, that is not the case.

Maybe you might remember a verse from Acts 26...

Act 26:26  For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.

You are right the king knew. But those men that thought he was John the Baptist, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets did not know, as very plainly taught.

Remember your point was everyone knew and that just isn't supported by the Scriptures.

 

[Just Ben]

We have a large homeless shelter in our area that does a good job of feeding and providing shelter for the homeless. Several churches support the shelter. In the publication the shelter mails out they requested volunteer chaplains "Who do not feel the need to share their faith".
Why not share Christ and the way of salvation with them?

 

[christundivided]

Jesus healed without even telling people who He was.

Healing them demonstrated who He was for those with eyes to see.  I agree with your point, though.

No doubt. But like Mathew Ward said earlier, our works themselves glorify God.

There wasn't anyone who didn't know who He.... claimed to be. While they may have not known at the very moment.... they found pretty quick.

Either way, to your point. I remember when "pizza" revivals became popular. The typical evangelist would throw a free pizza party to generate attendance. I can remember attending one these "pizza parties" in which they locked the doors and precede to force everyone in attendance to "hear the Gospel".... I couldn't help but question the honesty of those who organized the event.

I don't think everyone knew who is was or who he claimed to be.

Do you have a particular group of people in mind or are you referencing little babies and the mentally ill?

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

This doesn't change the rumors concerning his claim to be the Son of God? It was pretty obvious that's the main issue everyone would eventually have an issue with.

It's ok to say you were mistaken, wrong or didn't think of that verse.

If you would like to point out where those men claimed to know of a rumor of his claim to be the son of God, I would love to see the reference. This was his disciples understanding of who the men thought he was.

But I do agree with you that each and every person has to come to a conclusion about Christ. Liar, lunatic or Lord.

I can say I was "mistaken, wrong or didn't think of that verse"....  However, that is not the case.

Maybe you might remember a verse from Acts 26...

Act 26:26  For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.

You are right the king knew. But those men that thought he was John the Baptist, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets did not know, as very plainly taught.

Remember your point was everyone knew and that just isn't supported by the Scriptures.

The verses you mentioned may point to their own beliefs but it does not remove the fact they knew He claimed to be the Son of God. Divine relation of that reality does not preclude knowing ABOUT the claim.

 

[subllibrm]

Smellin Coffee:
And when Jesus said to help those impoverished, did He mention we are to do so solely in the context of evangelism? Not saying at all that it is wrong to evangelize in such situations, just wondering where such benevolence was expected in an effort to evangelize. And if so, was it done that way in the OT?

If we care enough to meet their basic needs of food, clothing and shelter, WHY would we not share with them how they can escape hell?
"I love you but only enough to make you more comfortable on your way to hell"?!
Please.

That isn't how I took his comments.

That's OK. He likes to spin. Prolly got the talent from watching Fox News.

No spin, just the obvious question, WHY NOT attach some type evangelism with your 'help the poor' efforts?
If not, you are merely making them comfortable as they travel the broad way that leads to destruction.
Let your good works glorify God...

I have no problem with giving cups of cold water in Jesus' name. After all it is commanded. At the same time, I don't see there being a litmus test for help based on a person's receptiveness to a gospel witness. Our revulsion of all things "modern" in the last century built a knee jerk reaction that to help for no other reason than to be helpful was a sellout to the "social gospel" promoters. In the mean time we lost uncountable opportunities to live out a gospel witness for fear of being lumped in with them.

We are called to glorify God. Meeting physical needs is one of the ways to do that. Insisting that every casserole delivered be accompanied by a gospel presentation takes the focus off of God and His glory and puts it on me and my generosity. "I will feed you if you ..." does not glorify God IMO.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Smellin Coffee:
And when Jesus said to help those impoverished, did He mention we are to do so solely in the context of evangelism? Not saying at all that it is wrong to evangelize in such situations, just wondering where such benevolence was expected in an effort to evangelize. And if so, was it done that way in the OT?

If we care enough to meet their basic needs of food, clothing and shelter, WHY would we not share with them how they can escape hell?
"I love you but only enough to make you more comfortable on your way to hell"?!
Please.

That isn't how I took his comments.

That's OK. He likes to spin. Prolly got the talent from watching Fox News.

No spin, just the obvious question, WHY NOT attach some type evangelism with your 'help the poor' efforts?
If not, you are merely making them comfortable as they travel the broad way that leads to destruction.
Let your good works glorify God...

I have no problem with giving cups of cold water in Jesus' name. After all it is commanded. At the same time, I don't see there being a litmus test for help based on a person's receptiveness to a gospel witness. Our revulsion of all things "modern" in the last century built a knee jerk reaction that to help for no other reason than to be helpful was a sellout to the "social gospel" promoters. In the mean time we lost uncountable opportunities to live out a gospel witness for fear of being lumped in with them.

We are called to glorify God. Meeting physical needs is one of the ways to do that. Insisting that every casserole delivered be accompanied by a gospel presentation takes the focus off of God and His glory and puts it on me and my generosity. "I will feed you if you ..." does not glorify God IMO.

Giving a cup of cold water in Jesus name doesn't depend on a persons receptiveness to a Gospel witness...it is simply doing what you do in His name in order to obtain a hearing for His good news. Our church has a weekly food distribution ministry, a weekly outreach into a 'project area' of out city and a weekly responsibility to provide meals at the local homeless shelter. All of which we do in Jesus name and openly sharing Christ with those we serve. Some are receptive, others are not....all are served!

We would not be interested in social work, which is simply making people more comfortable as they progress toward hell. The social gospel...social work as simply doing good works for good works sake, helped to kill the so called mainstream denominations in the 60's and, IMO will do the same thing to evangelicalism if we fall into that trap.

 

[16KJV11]

I just remembered, this pastor who wrote the blog is a Southern Baptist.