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PR6771
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If we're going to discuss Jewish identity, I really think one of us should start a separate thread. I'm not too inclined to start it myself, but will participate should you start it.
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christundivided
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PR6771 said:
I know what I believe about it and have for a long time....
I do believe its part of this discussion. I believe it quite evident that there really aren't that many real "Jews" left. All I see are a lot of people claiming a diluted bloodline. It must be nice for them to ignore all the condemnation of their choices found in the Scriptures and pretend they are the natural seed of Abraham. Not saying there isn't any. Just not near as many as who claim it.
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PR6771
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christundivided said:
I could care less how diluted or even non-existent their bloodline is. The covenant agreement is what defines a Jew. Full or diluted bloodline notwithstanding.
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PR6771
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PR6771 said:
Never mind- let me qualify what I said. A Jew by bloodline is Jewish at birth, regardless of the fact that he has no understanding. He forfeits his Jewish identity if he does not follow the covenant agreement. A Gentile by bloodline must enter into the covenant by choice, and is then just as much Jewish as any Jew, legally speaking. He can also, however, forfeit his Jewish identity by nonadherence to the covenant.
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christundivided
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PR6771 said:
Really? Are you Jewish? You should have said that to start with....
The covenant was made to the bloodline of Abraham.... thru Isaac...... not even through Ishmael.... and you say its not important.... Come on.
I was hoping you recognize Paul's argument found in the Book of Romans. You know the one where he talks about what a Jew really is.... pay attention to the later part of chapter 2.
I especially like how Paul talks of the failure of Jewish race to keep themselves from sin..... and yet they somehow claim to divine descendants of Abraham.... Please.....
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Jewish descendants that break the law of God essentially become "uncircumcised".... That must really make a "judiazer" mad....
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PR6771
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christundivided:
I still think this would be best served with its own thread... I'm about to start it myself
Really? Are you Jewish? You should have said that to start with....
The covenant was made to the bloodline of Abraham.... thru Isaac...... not even through Ishmael.... and you say its not important.... Come on.
I was hoping you recognize Paul's argument found in the Book of Romans. You know the one where he talks about what a Jew really is.... pay attention to the later part of chapter 2.
I especially like how Paul talks of the failure of Jewish race to keep themselves from sin..... and yet they somehow claim to divine descendants of Abraham.... Please.....
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Jewish descendants that break the law of God essentially become "uncircumcised".... That must really make a "judiazer" mad....
I still think this would be best served with its own thread... I'm about to start it myself
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christundivided
Guest
PR6771 said:Really? Are you Jewish? You should have said that to start with....
The covenant was made to the bloodline of Abraham.... thru Isaac...... not even through Ishmael.... and you say its not important.... Come on.
I was hoping you recognize Paul's argument found in the Book of Romans. You know the one where he talks about what a Jew really is.... pay attention to the later part of chapter 2.
I especially like how Paul talks of the failure of Jewish race to keep themselves from sin..... and yet they somehow claim to divine descendants of Abraham.... Please.....
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Jewish descendants that break the law of God essentially become "uncircumcised".... That must really make a "judiazer" mad....
I still think this would be best served with its own thread... I'm about to start it myself
I perceive Sir..... that thou art a Messianic Jew in disguise.... 8)
Its been a while since I've had the privilege..... Nice to meet you!!!!
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PR6771
Guest
I am sorry to disappoint you, but I am not, nor do I have a desire to become one. I do have a family member, though, that is something similar to Messianic Jewish, but I don't knew exactly what she classifies herself as...
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PR6771 said:
A Jew practicing Judaism is an unbeliever, and therefore he is sinning whether circumcised or not.
A Messianic Jew (Jewish convert to Christianity) is a believer, and therefore no longer bound by the old covenants, because he is a member of the New Covenant. It is in Galatians that Paul argues that the Mosaic Covenant has not nullified the earlier Abrahamic Covenant - yet the very point of his argument is that it is denying the Gospel to compel any believer to become circumcised.
The Jewish Christians I have known make no secret of their Jewish heritage, but they do not, for example, keep kosher. I have never inquired as to the status of their foreskins, and have no plans to do so in the future.
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PR6771
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Ransom said:
What do you mean by Judaism? Merely following Mosaic law? Or believing that said following will lead to salvation?
I agree it would be sin to teach a Gentile or Jew that salvation is in any way dependent on the "status of his foreskin" as you so eloquently put it. I would think though that it would be Biblical, and even in following with the teachings of the apostles, Paul included, that there is truth in saying a Jewish person who is uncircumcised is disobeying God's command to the descendants of Abraham if they remain uncircumcised.
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PR6771 said:
Judaism = the Jewish religion.
He might be disobeying the law of Moses, yes. But if he is still a practicing Jew, he is committing a worse sin by refusing to submit to the Messiah, Jesus.
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christundivided
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Ransom said:
I've seen the exact opposite. I've never known a devout Jew, that considers his heritage...... to not keep kosher. Messianic or not. They wouldn't eat a piece of bacon to save their own lives....Well they might do it save their own lives but that's about it.
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PR6771
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Ransom said:
But the modern Jewish religion and the Biblical Jewish religion are 2 different things, I think. By the time of Jesus, those who claimed to be leaders of Jewish religion were ripped on by Christ for not following the most important parts of the Jewish Religion, for adding their own traditions to the Jewish Religion, and praised for the parts of the truly Biblical Jewish religion they were following. Paul's example was never to condemn Jews who followed the law, so long as they recognized it could not save them. How could you possibly conclude that someone following Jewish law, with the understanding that it will not save them, is going against Jesus? Where does Jesus send revelation for them to stop? 1 verse commanding Jews to disobey Mosaic law would be a good start. Christundivided has provided a passage in Romans for me to dissect, but even that's not the words of Christ. At best, you could try to say a practicing Jew is in rebellion to Paul, but without a verse to support you, they are not, in fact, in rebellion to Jesus by following Mosaic law.
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PR6771 said:
I didn't conclude that. I don't think you are reading too closely. Either that, or you are bringing assumptions into this conversation that are impairing your ability to read accurately and carefully.
Let me try again:
A practitioner of Judaism is in a state of damnable sin whether he obeys the Law or not, by virtue of rejecting his Messiah.
A follower of Jesus is not in a state of sin if he refuses to become circumcised, because in Christ circumcision is nothing.
Galatians 4:9-11 (NKJV)
9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.
9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.
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PR6771
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Ransom said:
But didn't you define Judaism as the Jewish Religion? Isn't that what all Old Testament believers followed? Including Jesus Himself? Or do you mean only the modern Jewish religion?
What teachers of Jewish religion reject Jesus as their Messiah? Certainly none before He came; and many practitioners of Jewish religion followed Jesus and yet continued to follow the Mosaic Law. Where in Scripture does it state that they are guilty of damnable sin?
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PR6771
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T-Bone said:
Thanks for the input; I now have a passage in Romans and in Galatians to study. Spoken words of Christ would be appreciated also.
PR6771 said:
Your welcome...your last statement is a little unsettling...do you hold to the canon of the Scripture? If so they are all the words of Christ..if not then it doesn't really matter.
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PR6771
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T-Bone said:
I do. But if there seems to be a contradiction between Paul and Christ or any portion of the Old Testament, I'm gonna assume Paul meant something other than what I think he did, since he continually uses Old Testament passages as the foundation of the doctrine he teaches. Surely he didn't believe it was all worthless?
PR6771 said:
Thank you for clarifying. No Paul didn't think the worthless he just believed that they have fulfilled their purpose. It makes it clear of the purpose of the law and the OT system..just like the writer of Hebrews taught over & over again.