PappaBear said:Izdaari said:You know the story of the Tower of Babel of course?
And you know Acts, where the gift of tongues came on the disciples on Pentecost, and the various places in Paul's letters where he wrote about that gift and its proper and improper uses?
Why are you asking me? I'm familiar enough with the Bible to know those things. So which of us seems unfamiliar with the Bible?
*smile* ... Yes, I am familiar with the Tower of Babel. It is where God confused the languages. The different languages are imposed by God upon the human race to cause them to separate, and as part of God's plan to slow down their corruption. The point is that languages are not just the LORD giving a tweak and men go off in different linqual directions speaking Greek, Hebrew, Chinese, Latin, and English. It is a result of God's hand upon us which causes us to understand different language. Communication is an external barrier holding back the human race, containing our evil. If God were to suddenly lift it, we would all understand each other and tongues (languages) would cease.
The spiritual gift of tongues has never been glossalalia or gibberish. By scriptural definition, tongues = languages. On Pentecost, the confusion of languages was temporarily suspended for the disciples in Jerusalem. These untrained men, mostly skilled fisherman but not academics, began to communicate to others the glorious gospel in their own languages! God took the rough Aramaic of Peter and allowed it to be understood by people from all over.
Alayman is a cessationist. I am curious to know what he means by that considering the way he used the term. But many believe that certain gifts of the spirit have ceased, particularly the gift of "tongues." I do not. I believe the spiritual versions of those gifts were given to the Church and will all be effective until we as a single Church body come together in unity and are adopted, as one we become like Christ and reach our spiritual maturity as a "perfect man." (Eph 4:8-13)
That said, I firmly believe that God occasionally releases His restraining hand from our mouths and lets certain ones have the gift of tongues. This gift, coming from God, is perfect in expression. He does not do this for the selfish gratuitous emotions of the speaker, but to communicate the gospel truth He has commanded us to give. This is not a gift restricted to any one language. God is not restricted to any one language. Communication across language barriers is nothing to the LORD. Languages are only an imposed barrier upon us, it is not one to God.
That is how I view the Bible. It is God's gift to us. The LORD Jesus' final great command to us was The Great Commission. We are commanded to go everywhere preaching the good news! That is why God freely gifted His word in MANY languages -- Aramaic, Coptic, Latin, Syriac, Spanish, and English. Part of His preserving influence is to move these truths through the various languages which He has imposed upon mankind. His prime directive is to take this gospel to every nation, tongue, and people.
Now, because of the "gift of tongues," I as an English speaker esteem the King James Bible as every bit as good as any Greek or Hebrew text -- Or Syriac or Latin for that matter. I do not believe in Ruckman's "double inspiration" because that contradicts the Bible doctrine of preservation and begins with the idea that at some point the Bible was lost and needed re-inspired. Neither do I agree with his "correcting the Greek with the English" nonsense, because that elevates the English above all else. But in disagreement with your kind, neither do I limit it to Greek, or Hebrew or "original languages." It is a matter of faith. God communicates His word THROUGH languages, and He has the power to lift the barrier of different languages. So my King James is no less, and no more, than the languages it comes from.
I believe there is significant support for my conclusion from the fact that the Bible was not written in a single language. God COULD HAVE had it all written in Hebrew, including the NT, had He chosen. Or, He could have used Greek throughout. But He did not. Rather, He used different languages (at least 3), which seem to have been the most universally understood at the time of the writing. There is valid dispute that a number of the NT books were written in something other than Greek, originally. If God did not in practice restrict His own word to any one language, why should we?
This is getting too long, but let me insert one brief idea here as an aside. We believe the Word of God is settled in heaven. 1Cor 13:8 tells us that some day out in the future languages will cease and we will all go back to speaking a single language. I believe that will happen when God no longer has a reason to restrain the wickedness of men and keep us separated from one another. God does nothing in vain, so pray tell what is the "original" language that Bible is settled in heaven with? Because it certainly would not be in a mutliplicity of languages since those languages shall cease and needing them would be vanity, an empty purpose.
I object to the new age modern versionists making an issue out of intra-language translation. I have no problem with translating the Bible into different languages, and I believe God will work His gifts and preserve His word through that process. But the modern versions are not inter-language translations, but intra-language ones -- they keep translating within the same one language. Why? Because someone has the idea that what we have had for hundreds of years is insufficient. They doubt God's power to communicate His own word in the language(s) He Himself has imposed. They deny His ability to cross the language barrier. They lie and claim to be only updating the language, but instead what they are really doing is modifying the text, weakening certain doctrines, and in many cases imposing their own theological view (such as in the NWT). This casts doubt on the veracity of scripture and presupposes that God is unable to deliver His written revelation of Hiimself to future generations beyond the "original languages" which have long ceased usage and understanding of idiomatic expression. Yet the power of God is evident in and through the King James Version, demonstrated by His use of it in a great missions emphasis and to bring great revivals. Others will claim their versions show the same, but they do not. I say they cannot because they are not the same thing, the emphasis and content has been significantly changed, and the differences are provoking more confusion and doubt than faith and exploits.
The odd thing in this is your AoG background, and your claim to ALAYMAN that you are a "continuist." Apparently you still believe the gift of tongues is valid for today, and that God can come upon people and give them utterance. But contrasting that, you express doubt that the more important priority of getting His word out is an impossible task. Well, not only is it possible, but in my view, in the King James, it is done.
Now you're making a lot more sense to me, and sounding pretty reasonable. :-*
And yes, I was an AoG member until last year, and as I reminded Alayman (I think he already knew) it was politics and culture that made me leave, not theology. If I said "continuist", that's a typo and not even a real word. Continuationist is the correct word, the antonym of cessationist. But I see you and I do have common ground in believing the gifts are still active. 8)
I never said getting His word out is impossible. I said exact translations are. But still, He gets His word out very well despite that... and I guess we're agreed on that too. Our AoG pew Bibles were NIV (not my favorite, but ok), and it seemed He could get His message out pretty well with those also.
. So what all the other languages need to do is keep translating Bible until you get to the number seven then they'll get it perfect.
