Wives, Sisters, and Daughters, Please Speak

abcaines said:
A better question would be should such a person be denied access to teaching from God's Word altogether?
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He can do whatever he wants. But if he’s allowed to be a member of my church, I can promise you I’m not going back. He is less than a second class citizen and should be kicked to the streets.

And if I run into any one that is thinking about going to that church I will 100% tell them that they allow rapist to be members.
 
abcaines said:
Where did you get the authority to make such a judgement call?
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When he sexually assaulted a child or woman.

What is your opinion of these people that molested children?
 
Jo said:
You have raised many good points. The fact that no one seems to be clamoring to share their misfortunes on a public forum says a lot. Honestly, I'm not even sure the Admins of the forum would let accusations and names fly. It wasn't really my intention. I realize I wasn't clear. Mainly, I just want to encourage women to talk to authorities or a counselor, etc.

"It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."

Luke 17:2
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i don;t think you realize what you are asking.... ... i also wonder if you are not aware that the accounts of women and children being abused by members of church leadership within the IFB have been told here before....many times... . ...and in every case the trolls attacked... .... people within those churches who knew the accused offenders also attacked with a vengeance... . some of those attackers are still on this forum.....

years ago i posted on the older forums of the things that happened to me as a child.... ...things that did not even involve a preacher or any member of the IFB ... ... i told about crimes committed by a family member and her clients all of whom were tried - convicted - and sent to prison........ most people on the forum at that time were sympathetic and supportive.. .. but a few were not..... ..... i was called used garbage and damaged goods by some and told i should be permanently locked in a psych ward and never let out by others..... none of whom even knew the people or perpetrators i was talking about... ...

the thing i am concerned about is if women abused by people and leaders in the church come here and tell their stories here.... and tell those stories to people here who know the people being accused... the abuse they get from the trolls and defenders of the accused on the forum will be far worse than anything i experienced.... ...even people who don;t know the accused person but due to the circumstances is able to sympathize with them in some way will attack...

it;s better for the victims if they go to law enforcement and professional counsellors and tell of their experiences there.... .. and insist that when and if the reports are released their names are kept private...

good people will always want to see a perpetrator get burned... ... but few realize that in doing so... (if they don;t do it right)... they can cause the victim to be burned along with them...... ...it;s not worth it.......
 
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biscuit1953 said:
All churches should have background checks with anyone who works with minors. No rapist should see the light of day for many, many, years much less being allowed to work with children and cold-blooded murderers should receive the death penalty whether they have repented or not. Some sins are greater than others and have greater consequences.

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"It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."
Luke 17:2

Looks like the death penalty for child molesters as well.
 
abcaines said:
Where did you get the authority to make such a judgement call?
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"It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."
Luke 17:2
 
abcaines said:
A better question would be should such a person be denied access to teaching from God's Word altogether?
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if giving him that access means he is going to be seated next to his former victims.... or even within sight of someone who was a victim of the kind of crime he committed..... then i say yes...... deny him entry into the church.... .let him go take part in one of the many jail ministries fundamentalists are famous for... ... .

i have always said one of the biggest stains on fundamentalism is they are more concerned with the restoration of wolves than they are with protecting the sheep....... and what;s worse is some are willing to sacrifice sheep that have been injured in order to care for the wolf that harmed them.........

how many fundamentalist churches have a jail ministry?.... now compare that to how many have a ministry dedicated to women and children who were victims of abuse?........ ...... .. .... fundamentalists didn;t get called "those who shoot their own wounded" by accident or as an idle slam.... .. they earned that title many times over..... . i would love to see that change.... .. .. but i;m not holding my breath for it.........
 
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aleshanee said:
i don;t think you realize what you are asking.... ... i also wonder if you are not aware that the accounts of women and children being abused by members of church leadership within the IFB have been told here before....many times... . ...and in every case the trolls attacked... .... people withing those churches who knew the accused offenders also attacked with a vengeance... . some of those attackers are still on this forum.....

years ago i posted on the older forums of the things that happened to me as a child.... ...things that did not even involve a preacher or any member of the IFB ... ... i told about crimes committed by a family member and her clients all of whom were tried - convicted - and sent to prison........ most people on the forum at that time were sympathetic and supportive.. .. but a few were not..... ..... i was called used garbage and damaged goods by some and told i should be permanently locked in a psych ward and never let out by others..... none of whom even knew the people or perpetrators i was talking about... ...

the thing i am concerned about is if women abused by people and leaders in the church come here and tell their stories here.... and tell those stories to people here who know the people being accused... the abuse they get from the trolls and defenders of the accused on the forum will be far worse than anything i experienced.... ...even people who don;t know the accused person but due to the circumstances is able to sympathize with them in some way will attack...

it;s better for the victims if they go to law enforcement and professional counsellors and tell of their experiences there.... .. and insist that when and if the reports are released their names are kept private...

good people will always want to see a perpetrator get burned... ... but few realize that in doing so they often cause the victim to be burned along with them...... ...it;s not worth it.......
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Lots and lots of wisdom here, I will revisit this later. We have our last night of VBS this evening and it is super busy as you might expect.
 
Bruh said:
"It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."
Luke 17:2
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Do you think that the Church should execute offenders?
 
ALAYMAN said:
Do you think that the Church should execute offenders?
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😂 no. All I did was post scripture that relates to people offending children. Why would you ask me if I thought churches should execute offenders?

If scripture says they are better off at the bottom of a lake. Why would you think it was good for them to be a member of your church?
 
Bruh said:
😂 no. All I did was post scripture that relates to people offending children. Why would you ask me if I thought churches should execute offenders?
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Because just a couple of posts earlier you said “Looks like the death penalty for child molesters as well.” So you clearly seem to believe the death penalty is authorized by Scripture for this offense. If that’s the correct implication (hint: it’s not), then either it’s the church or state that’s being authorized to carry this enforcement out. Which do you believe Scripture is saying should carry out the sentence?
Bruh said:
If scripture says they are better off at the bottom of a lake.
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Are you sure that’s what it means? That offenders should be placed at the bottom of a lake?
Bruh said:
Why would you think it was good for them to be a member of your church?
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Because you’re wrong about your apparent interpretation and application of the Scriptures.
 
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ALAYMAN said:
Because just a couple of posts earlier you said “Looks like the death penalty for child molesters as well.” So you clearly seem to believe the death penalty is authorized by Scripture for this offense. If that’s the correct implication (hint: it’s not), then either it’s the church or state that’s being authorized to carry this enforcement out. Which do you believe Scripture is saying should carry out the sentence?

Are you sure that’s what it means? That offenders should be placed at the bottom of a lake?

Because you’re wrong about your apparent interpretation and application of the Scriptures.
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Well you’re probably right about the scripture. I’m no Bible scholar.

Now, if it becomes law that they actually give the death penalty for sexual child abuse, I wouldn’t be offended. It would just mean that there would be less church members 😂

Here’s the thing, for the life of me, I completely do not comprehend trying to “restore” these people in a church. I don’t get it. It’s beyond me.

Question. Do you believe in the death penalty for someone that murders someone?

How about the death penalty for a man the sexual assaults a child. Do you believe it should be law that they should get the death penalty?
 
Bruh said:
Here’s the thing, for the life of me, I completely do not comprehend trying to “restore” these people in a church. I don’t get it. It’s beyond me.
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Purely hypothetical, but, what would you say about someone who purposely ministers to offenders? This ministry reaches out to them, they meet in a place with no access to children or others they have harmed and strict accountability for how they behave. No making excuses for their past sins, no trying to build bridges to past victims. Instructing them that while their sins can be forgiven, the consequences of their actions remain this side of eternity. The purpose being not to restore them socially but to minister to their spiritual needs.
 
abcaines said:
Purely hypothetical, but, what would you say about someone who purposely ministers to offenders? This ministry reaches out to them, they meet in a place with no access to children or others they have harmed and strict accountability for how they behave. No making excuses for their past sins, no trying to build bridges to past victims. Instructing them that while their sins can be forgiven, the consequences of their actions remain this side of eternity. The purpose being not to restore them socially but to minister to their spiritual needs.
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I don’t know.

It’s just…..I’ve seen personally the destruction that sexual abuse does to a person long into their adulthood. Not immediate family but extended family, I’ve witnessed this and continue to see it in their lives.

I understand that there are programs to help victims.

But why not take the time, energy and resources to help the victims instead?

As much sympathy that the people have for the abuser to “try” and help them in my opinion, should be directed to the victims.
 
Bruh said:
Here’s the thing, for the life of me, I completely do not comprehend trying to “restore” these people in a church. I don’t get it. It’s beyond me.
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You’re going to spend eternity worshipping with some, you might start working on those implications in the here and now.
Bruh said:
Question. Do you believe in the death penalty for someone that murders someone?
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In the appropriate capital murder sense, yes.
Bruh said:
How about the death penalty for a man the sexual assaults a child. Do you believe it should be law that they should get the death penalty?
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For my entire life I have believed that pedophiles and rapist should be castrated, either chemically or otherwise. I believe that in some cases justification could be made for the death penalty. If the state decided these things were appropriate, I would have no problem with that being the appropriate sentence.

None of that has anything to do with what we’re talking about though. The church is not the state.
 
Bruh said:
I don’t know.

It’s just…..I’ve seen personally the destruction that sexual abuse does to a person long into their adulthood. Not immediate family but extended family, I’ve witnessed this and continue to see it in their lives.

I understand that there are programs to help victims.

But why not take the time, energy and resources to help the victims instead?

As much sympathy that the people have for the abuser to “try” and help them in my opinion, should be directed to the victims.
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You present a false dichotomy. It is possible and advisable to do both.
 
aleshanee said:
if giving him that access means he is going to be seated next to his former victims.... or even within sight of someone who was a victim of the kind of crime he committed..... then i say yes...... deny him entry into the church.... .let him go take part in one of the many jail ministries fundamentalists are famous for... ... .
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I totally agree with this. If there are victims of the offender in the church who are not able to cope with the trauma then their safety and security should be the higher priority. In addition, one of the modern outcroppings of Ministry is the idea of “cell groups”, which is where smaller portions of the church meet under the leadership of teachers, deacons, and authority figures, to be taught and discipled in the word of God. They often meet in homes of church members. This would be a more controlled environment that would assure the safety and security of those who could be shielded from being put in proximity to those that trigger their trauma, as well as an opportunity for those that pose a higher risk to be held accountable and taught the word of God.
 
ALAYMAN said:
You’re going to spend eternity worshipping with some, you might start working on those implications in the here and now.

In the appropriate capital murder sense, yes.

For my entire life I have believed that pedophiles and rapist should be castrated, either chemically or otherwise. I believe that in some cases justification could be made for the death penalty. If the state decided these things were appropriate, I would have no problem with that being the appropriate sentence.

None of that has anything to do with what we’re talking about though. The church is not the state.
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“you might start working on those implications in the here and now.”

So, if I don’t do it now are you saying I will have a difficult time do that in heaven?
 
aleshanee said:
i don;t think you realize what you are asking.... ... i also wonder if you are not aware that the accounts of women and children being abused by members of church leadership within the IFB have been told here before....many times... . ...and in every case the trolls attacked... .... people within those churches who knew the accused offenders also attacked with a vengeance... . some of those attackers are still on this forum.....

years ago i posted on the older forums of the things that happened to me as a child.... ...things that did not even involve a preacher or any member of the IFB ... ... i told about crimes committed by a family member and her clients all of whom were tried - convicted - and sent to prison........ most people on the forum at that time were sympathetic and supportive.. .. but a few were not..... ..... i was called used garbage and damaged goods by some and told i should be permanently locked in a psych ward and never let out by others..... none of whom even knew the people or perpetrators i was talking about... ...

the thing i am concerned about is if women abused by people and leaders in the church come here and tell their stories here.... and tell those stories to people here who know the people being accused... the abuse they get from the trolls and defenders of the accused on the forum will be far worse than anything i experienced.... ...even people who don;t know the accused person but due to the circumstances is able to sympathize with them in some way will attack...

it;s better for the victims if they go to law enforcement and professional counsellors and tell of their experiences there.... .. and insist that when and if the reports are released their names are kept private...

good people will always want to see a perpetrator get burned... ... but few realize that in doing so... (if they don;t do it right)... they can cause the victim to be burned along with them...... ...it;s not worth it.......
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Two things that are good takeaways from what you said. Number one, any person who has been violated or abused ought to, as soon as they’re capable, report the offender to a trusted authority and get counseling if possible.

Number two, awareness is a great thing when it comes to knowledge of and prevention for risk, whether it is epidemiology or ecclesiology, we need to strive to have conversations that help victims be urged to gain the power to retake their lives. Ministers and authority figures should create such a culture that truth about the offenders is revealed to those that can make an impact upon incarcerating those offenders (and ministering to them to the largest extent possible).
 
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