Would you pastors object to being called "brother" instead?

[praise_yeshua]

In the context of elders and leadership in a church, Paul says, "The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching." 1 Timothy 5:17

So, if the leader speaks for 12 minutes and someone else speaks for 11 minutes, is that leader still unequal?

See where your logic rests? It rests on the secular PC notion that a leader is, by definition, unequal. We are all equal, because of nature. Function, and honor heaped on someone who has that function, has nothing to do with equality.

It hard to argue this with a leader of something. Its better "suited" to be addressed by those not in power. You can't seem to get it. Its more than just an issue with "aesthetics".

You have a position you want to protect or you desire an position that you want to protect. I seek to protect... NOTHING... It is but dung to me that I might win Him...

By the way....

Don't you "leaders" take "double honor" to mean wages?

If so, then why in the world are you make such a stupid argument? You're taking the verse out of context. You know it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You're justifying violating what Jesus said because they're worthy of double honor.  "Yeah, Jesus said not to call anyone rabbi/teacher/instructor (pastor), but we're going to put "Pastor Joe" on our sign anyway because he's worthy of double honor."

Jesus is not at odds with Paul. The problem is your view of "equality." Put the title, "Brother Joe" on the sign (as some do in the deep South) and there is zero difference. There are "Brother Joes" who view themselves as more than equal. You want the label to change and think that function is a statement of equality. It is not. It is only viewed that way by secular PC.

My suggestion was to take the name off the sign.

Oh dear God no...... It wouldn't be giving proper honor to whom honor is due...

 

[praise_yeshua]

Our sign only has service times.  8)

Put a few names on it... It doesn't matter... You're just giving honer where honor is due...  8)

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

In the context of elders and leadership in a church, Paul says, "The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching." 1 Timothy 5:17

So, if the leader speaks for 12 minutes and someone else speaks for 11 minutes, is that leader still unequal?

See where your logic rests? It rests on the secular PC notion that a leader is, by definition, unequal. We are all equal, because of nature. Function, and honor heaped on someone who has that function, has nothing to do with equality.

Don't you "leaders" take "double honor" to mean wages?

It did occur to me that if pastors met this challenge...

For those pastors who said they wouldn't object, I challenge them to put their money where their mouth is.  Remove their names entirely from the church sign.  List themselves as "brother Joe" in the church bulletin.  Open the floor to people who want to contribute their thoughts during a sermon.  And so on...

...the people might wonder what they're paying him for. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

Oh dear God no...... It wouldn't be giving proper honor to whom honor is due...

Just curious, and not tryin' to call you out, but while we subjectively quibble over church signs and what constitutes the proper honor that should be shown, how is the above phrase not much more explicitly a form of taking God's name in vain?

 

[FSSL]

It hard to argue this with a leader of something. Its better "suited" to be addressed by those not in power. You can't seem to get it. Its more than just an issue with "aesthetics".

I have been both, employed and volunteer minister.

Today, I am completely a volunteer. I am not seeking a staff position (even when it has been offered to me). I have my own budget and limit my own involvement.

So, I do not have a position that enables me to function as a leader of a group. I do oversee and produce the digital media of the church.

I get it. I worked with demigods before. I see the authority problems in churches. I will say this... there are plenty of authority, power problems in a church and most do not stem from the pastor. He is outnumbered by humanity that always seeks their own position.

The problem does not lie in what title the pastor wears. The problem is that neither of you have demonstrated the difference between function and equality. You have your anecdotal examples of certain people who thought too highly of their functions, but by definition, function has nothing to do with equality.

The secular world is creating your frame of reference.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Oh dear God no...... It wouldn't be giving proper honor to whom honor is due...

Just curious, and not tryin' to call you out, but while we subjectively quibble over church signs and what constitutes the proper honor that should be shown, how is the above phrase not much more explicitly a form of taking God's name in vain?

No. Dear God no.... is short for "Dear God don't let it be so". This isn't vain.... Its my humble desire. I did mix it with a little sarcasm for FSSL and you to consider...

I think its rather silly to put your names on a church sign. I think its rather silly to put "baptist" on a church sign. I've argued such for many years. When I drive by.... I SEE.... who's getting promoted there..... You're put out a sign for all to see. I see it.... and it doesn't look appealing to me.

How about just "Church". That would work. I think it makes perfect sense. Just "Church"

Do whatever you want to do and what makes you happy..... I'm just saying I don't think it makes God happy. I don't think He's smiling over it.

Tell you what.... The guy that owns the business I work for...... is a very powerful and wealthy person. Even he doesn't have his name on the sign out front. He doesn't care who knows him. It matters who he knows....

 

[praise_yeshua]

It hard to argue this with a leader of something. Its better "suited" to be addressed by those not in power. You can't seem to get it. Its more than just an issue with "aesthetics".

I have been both, employed and volunteer minister.

Today, I am completely a volunteer. I am not seeking a staff position (even when it has been offered to me). I have my own budget and limit my own involvement.

So, I do not have a position that enables me to function as a leader of a group. I do oversee and produce the digital media of the church.

I get it. I worked with demigods before. I see the authority problems in churches. I will say this... there are plenty of authority, power problems in a church and most do not stem from the pastor. He is outnumbered by humanity that always seeks their own position.

The problem does not lie in what title the pastor wears. The problem is that neither of you have demonstrated the difference between function and equality. You have your anecdotal examples of certain people who thought too highly of their functions, but by definition, function has nothing to do with equality.

The secular world is creating your frame of reference.

Sure....

I want the sign to say "Church" and I'm secularly influenced.....Yeah. I get it.

Secular influence always wants to put a "name" to something. Something they can tangible handle and feel. Church doesn't work that way.

You have always partially quoted me. I get SO tired of it....

You know you mishandled the Scripture you reference concerning "double honor". You're all over the place.

but by definition, function has nothing to do with equality.

Provide the definition!

Function and equality are useless when it comes to power. Those who have absolute power....... could care less about function and equality. Power makes then useless. Ultimately they only serve the one in power.

Which really is a huge part of the point. The real power isn't in the ones in front of you..... Yet they are ones on the signs and getting the attention....

 

[FSSL]

but by definition, function has nothing to do with equality.
Provide the definition!

Hand, arms, head... illustrations in 1 Corinthians. Difference in function, equality is the point of the passage.

Function and equality are useless when it comes to power. Those who have absolute power....... could care less about function and equality.

Now you are just making things up.

Which really is a huge part of the point. The real power isn't in the ones in front of you..... Yet they are ones on the signs and getting the attention....

What about this? Is this wrong?

 

[FSSL]

NOBODY on staff can do the things I do in digital media. Nobody, period.
I have a M.Div. My pastor does not have a seminary degree.
We all enjoy and have mutual respect for each other.
I do not clamor to speak, but am more than willing to help out in a pinch.

Does that mean we are unequal? Does it mean that I am less equal?

Among secularists, it does. In the church, properly understood... no way.

 

[praise_yeshua]

but by definition, function has nothing to do with equality.
Provide the definition!

Hand, arms, head... illustrations in 1 Corinthians. Difference in function, equality is the point of the passage.

This only works when the body is properly fit together. You can't surely be saying the body is properly fitting together properly.

There is only ONE head. ONE. It ain't the pastor. Why are you making it the "pastor"?

Which really is a huge part of the point. The real power isn't in the ones in front of you..... Yet they are ones on the signs and getting the attention....

What about this? Is this wrong?

Tell me which one? I'll answer. Is there one for every pastor? The sign doesn't indicate there is....

 

[praise_yeshua]

NOBODY on staff can do the things I do in digital media. Nobody, period.
I have a M.Div. My pastor does not have a seminary degree.
We all enjoy and have mutual respect for each other.
I do not clamor to speak, but am more than willing to help out in a pinch.

Does that mean we are unequal? Does it mean that I am less equal?

Among secularists, it does. In the church, properly understood... no way.

A M.Div and you can't get "double honor" right....

Who else do you respect? I sure your church has many peoples in it. You only dealt with "leadership".

Have you ever had a "members appreciation day"? I bet you've had a "pastor appreciation"day.

 

[FSSL]

There is only ONE head. ONE. It ain't the pastor. Why are you making it the "pastor"?

"Head" in the context of 1 Corinthians 12:21 is NOT Christ. That would be blasphemous because Paul uses the "head" to illustrate a potentially negative situation.

No one can divvy up what "head" "foot" "arm" refers to which position. It is just an illustration.

Tell me which one? I'll answer. Is there one for every pastor? The sign doesn't indicate there is....

Nope. Just one. Is that wrong?

 

[FSSL]

A M.Div and you can't get "double honor" right....

My function is not to lead the congregation in preaching and teaching. Although, they do give me a nice check when I do speak. I refuse it politely, but take it and deposit with genuine thankfulness.

Who else do you respect? I sure your church has many peoples in it. You only dealt with "leadership".

Our maintenance crew are some of the most gracious and respected people in our church. I work with them, from time-to-time. It is made up of retired millionaires.

Have you ever had a "members appreciation day"? I bet you've had a "pastor appreciation"day.

We went all out on the 10th anniversary of our pastor being at our church. We have shrimp and crawdad boils for the volunteers every year.

EVEN if we did neither of the above... we ALL know where our appreciation and honor comes from.

 

[praise_yeshua]

"Head" in the context of 1 Corinthians 12:21 is NOT Christ. That would be blasphemous because Paul uses the "head" to illustrate a potentially negative situation.

No one can divvy up what "head" "foot" "arm" refers to which position. It is just an illustration.

Blasphemous? Really. You're being rather silly. The same man that gave us 1 Corinthians 12 is the same man that wrote..

Col 1:18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Col 2:19  And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

You're being entirely ridiculous. You totally ignoring the purpose of God in the body...

1Co 12:25  That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

The body of Christ is perfectly fit together in the plan of God. There is no "potentially negative situation."  You've lost your mind.

Nope. Just one. Is that wrong?

Why not every staff member?

I think its a mistake.

 

[praise_yeshua]

My function is not to lead the congregation in preaching and teaching. Although, they do give me a nice check when I do speak. I refuse it politely, but take it and deposit with genuine thankfulness.

You know I think you're a good man. I'm not bashing to bring you down. I wish you'd see things for what they are....

Take the money. Use it for the glory of God.

Our maintenance crew are some of the most gracious and respected people in our church. I work with them, from time-to-time. It is made up of retired millionaires.

Great.

We went all out on the 10th anniversary of our pastor being at our church. We have shrimp and crawdad boils for the volunteers every year.

EVEN if we did neither of the above... we ALL know where our appreciation and honor comes from.

I asked if you had a members appreciation day. A day where everyone is rewarded with thankfulness?

I grow so tired of weak pastors who can't serve if they're not continually praised for doing so.... They have to "feel" wanted and loved so much......

They never stop to consider..... they are servants and servants don't consider themselves. Yes. Its nice to be appreciated. Yes. Its very nice. However, too many learn to expect it. When they don't get it.... they are devastated to point they can't serve.

This job is one of service to others. Not to ourselves.

Drop the parties and celebrations unless you're recognizing everyone involved. Include the members making it all possible.

 

[FSSL]

If a pastor schedules his own appreciation day, you have a point. Since we are all told by Paul to give "double honor" to the elders who faithfully preach and teach, then your point fails.

The point of the OP is not about members receiving honor, it is about pastors receiving any honor at all. Imbalanced perspective.

***I never take things personally on the forum. Let 'er rip! My signature line needs expansion

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Which reminds me of a story...

An elderly, poor Christian arrived in heaven.  He was greeted warmly, given everything he could imagine he would need and walked with companions to his mansion. 

One day, he heard a ruckus outside.  He looked outside and saw there was a huge parade with musicians and celebration.  He asked his neighbor what was going on. 

His neighbor said, "Oh, we're celebrating the arrival of pastor Charles". 

The old man was disappointed and said, "I was so pleased when I was treated the same as everyone else when I arrived here.  Why does this pastor get special treatment?"

His neighbor replied, "Oh, I see.  You don't understand.  It's just that humble folk like us get to heaven every day.  It's an extremely rare occasion when we get a pastor."

 

[FSSL]

LOL... well... I am sure many pastors will face the "I didn't know you" declaration.

 

[praise_yeshua]

If a pastor schedules his own appreciation day, you have a point. Since we are all told by Paul to give "double honor" to the elders who faithfully preach and teach, then your point fails.

The point of the OP is not about members receiving honor, it is about pastors receiving any honor at all. Imbalanced perspective.

***I never take things personally on the forum. Let 'er rip! My signature line needs expansion

Rom 12:5  So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Every person has a gift. Ever gift is important. Everyone deserves to be "thanked".

Again. You have a rather poor understand of "double honor". Define "double honor.

Even the most ardent promoter of self..... can't change it mean anymore than "respect" and wages". This is the "double"........ honor. Not double respect or double wages or double thankfulness when compared to others....

You're messing this up very badly....