Zimmerman case

[HeDied4U]

No lashing out just sharing the other side of the story.

Trayvon's girlfriend said that he was talking on the phone telling her that this guy was following him.  He is 17 and an adult is following him around in the dark don't you think that might be a little unnerving?  The guy has been following him in the vehicle and then gets out and approaches him on foot what should he do?  Offer him skittles and ice tea?  Come on?

Let's be realistic.  If you were walking through a neighborhood and someone was following you around in their vehicle for some time.  They then exit the vehicle and start to pursue you in the dark.  What do you do?  Let's be honest.  You don't know the guy.  You don't know if he has friends coming to help him.  You don't know if he is armed.  What do you do? 

Let me let you in on a little ethnic secret.  If an African-American male feels threatened he will usually not run.  He will stand his ground.  If you initiate the situation and depend on fear to control the situation you will find that you have miscalculated.  Why is it so hard to understand that an African-American youth would defend himself when he felt he was in danger with his hands but not hard to believe that Zimmerman would defend himself when he found he had bitten off more than he could chew.  America is still a very dangerous place for an African-American male because of situations like this.

I must confess I did not expect this response from Christians but my wife always tells me that I am a little too trusting.

IF he felt unnerved (and we may never know if he was or not), why didn't he hang up on his girlfriend and call the police and tell them he was being followed through the neighborhood by an adult and that he felt frightened/scared/unnerved? Could very well have saved his life.

Why didn't Zimmerman do the same?  That's right the law enforcement personnel had already told him not to approach the young man that he was stalking through the neighborhood.  Sorry but telling your girlfriend, "I am scarred of this man that is following me (in my little girl voice)" is not normal at all.  Too funny..........

Nothing funny at all about it. Yeah, Zimmerman didn't follow what the police told him to do, but you would think that a 17 year old kid would have sense enough to call the police IF he was afraid because an adult was following him, like he told his girlfriend he was being followed. It's been a long time since I was 17, but if I was being followed, I'd certainly call the police. Maybe common sense isn't as prevalent among teenagers as it was 30 years ago.

Let me help you understand that it has nothing to do with common sense.

When I was 17 I was an honors student.  I was not a thug.  If Zimmerman had been following me and then got out his truck to pursue me on a public street.  I would have warned him to stop and if he didn't then I would not have called the police or told my girlfriend that I was scarred because by the time police would arrive sweet little ole Zimmerman could have done anything that he intended to do me.  If he continued to pursue me until he got close enough to touch me I would have spanked him as well.  He was stalking me and now his is pursuing me on foot and I warn him to stop and he continues then he clearly wants to be unpleasantly surprised.

It is really simple.  Because I am and African-American male does not give someone the right to follow me or interrogate me on public property or violate law enforcement instructions to not approach me.  It also does not give you the right to take my life because you don't want the whipping that you have forced me to give you.  Zimmerman cannot begin as the "strong arm of the law" and then transform into a scared little girl when his victim becomes a victor.

Well, I guess that's where you and I differ. If I was being stalked, I'd hang up on my girlfriend and call the police whether I was scared or not. I wouldn't wait for the stalker to get out of the vehicle and see what his intentions were. I would have no way of knowing if he had a gun, a knife or a crowbar for that matter. Besides, I would have no way of knowing if I could give the stalker a "whipping" or not. As the old saying goes, it's better to be safe than sorry.

 

[graceandtruth]

Thanks guys for the entertainment and confirmation.

Entertainment because I find it humorous when people seriously defend untenable positions.  I know I shouldn't but I am amazed at what otherwise intelligent people will believe and try to convince others to believe when it becomes personal.

Confirmation that racism still runs deep in America even among those who profess to be Christians just as it did throughout slavery and Jim Crow era.

Confirmation that racism is at the heart of the IFB's and much of Evangelicalism's failure to reach African-Americans.  When even children are seen as nothing more than aggressive animals that deserve death for the slightest personal offense you will probably not seek to share the Gospel with them and if you do they will not take you seriously because your disdain for them is written all over you.

PS:  I don't think I can be classed as a racist.  I have a Euro-American sister-in-law  , daughter-in-law  , and son-in-law  .  I have a grandson by that daughter-in-law that is adorable.  All three of them also see the problems with the Zimmerman case.  I think our problem is that we do not have the option to live in our respective ethnic bubbles.  We must interact with both ethnic groups as equals in every respect not just in appearance.  I am sad to say that I cannot say the same for some that have posted on this thread if their posts are any indications of their real views.

It appears that some things change but some things stay the same.

 

[graceandtruth]

No lashing out just sharing the other side of the story.

Trayvon's girlfriend said that he was talking on the phone telling her that this guy was following him.  He is 17 and an adult is following him around in the dark don't you think that might be a little unnerving?  The guy has been following him in the vehicle and then gets out and approaches him on foot what should he do?  Offer him skittles and ice tea?  Come on?

Let's be realistic.  If you were walking through a neighborhood and someone was following you around in their vehicle for some time.  They then exit the vehicle and start to pursue you in the dark.  What do you do?  Let's be honest.  You don't know the guy.  You don't know if he has friends coming to help him.  You don't know if he is armed.  What do you do? 

Let me let you in on a little ethnic secret.  If an African-American male feels threatened he will usually not run.  He will stand his ground.  If you initiate the situation and depend on fear to control the situation you will find that you have miscalculated.  Why is it so hard to understand that an African-American youth would defend himself when he felt he was in danger with his hands but not hard to believe that Zimmerman would defend himself when he found he had bitten off more than he could chew.  America is still a very dangerous place for an African-American male because of situations like this.

I must confess I did not expect this response from Christians but my wife always tells me that I am a little too trusting.

IF he felt unnerved (and we may never know if he was or not), why didn't he hang up on his girlfriend and call the police and tell them he was being followed through the neighborhood by an adult and that he felt frightened/scared/unnerved? Could very well have saved his life.

Why didn't Zimmerman do the same?  That's right the law enforcement personnel had already told him not to approach the young man that he was stalking through the neighborhood.  Sorry but telling your girlfriend, "I am scarred of this man that is following me (in my little girl voice)" is not normal at all.  Too funny..........

Nothing funny at all about it. Yeah, Zimmerman didn't follow what the police told him to do, but you would think that a 17 year old kid would have sense enough to call the police IF he was afraid because an adult was following him, like he told his girlfriend he was being followed. It's been a long time since I was 17, but if I was being followed, I'd certainly call the police. Maybe common sense isn't as prevalent among teenagers as it was 30 years ago.

Let me help you understand that it has nothing to do with common sense.

When I was 17 I was an honors student.  I was not a thug.  If Zimmerman had been following me and then got out his truck to pursue me on a public street.  I would have warned him to stop and if he didn't then I would not have called the police or told my girlfriend that I was scarred because by the time police would arrive sweet little ole Zimmerman could have done anything that he intended to do me.  If he continued to pursue me until he got close enough to touch me I would have spanked him as well.  He was stalking me and now his is pursuing me on foot and I warn him to stop and he continues then he clearly wants to be unpleasantly surprised.

It is really simple.  Because I am and African-American male does not give someone the right to follow me or interrogate me on public property or violate law enforcement instructions to not approach me.  It also does not give you the right to take my life because you don't want the whipping that you have forced me to give you.  Zimmerman cannot begin as the "strong arm of the law" and then transform into a scared little girl when his victim becomes a victor.

Well, I guess that's where you and I differ. If I was being stalked, I'd hang up on my girlfriend and call the police whether I was scared or not. I wouldn't wait for the stalker to get out of the vehicle and see what his intentions were. I would have no way of knowing if he had a gun, a knife or a crowbar for that matter. Besides, I would have no way of knowing if I could give the stalker a "whipping" or not. As the old saying goes, it's better to be safe than sorry.

These posts make it clear why the Trayvon and most African-American males would not hang up and call the police.  He would be perceived as the "thug" and the one in the wrong.  When the police are usually not friendly towards you one is not as ready to seek their assistance.  Fortunately, for you that is a situation that you do not have to live with.

 

[Castor Muscular]

PS:  I don't think I can be classed as a racist. 

I haven't read every post, but as far as I can see, you're the only person who brought race into the discussion to justify illegal behavior.  That makes you a racist. 

Glad you were entertained.  Enjoy. 

 

[graceandtruth]

I believe the reports state that there had been burgalrys in the neighborhood previous to this incident by young mostly black young males. Zimmerman was over zelaous for sure, but there are witnesses that have corroborated his side of the story

You must have missed this statement by Cave-dweller.

Your cry of racism every time someone brings up ethnicity will not work.  It is part of our reality and it effects everything in America.  Try something else Castor.

Try listening to other people and not discounting their experience.  Accept that people are intelligent enough to process what is happening to them and what they are experiencing in life.  You can only learn and the problems can only be addressed with both sides of the issues are heard from both perspectives.  This thread seems to indicate that the majority ethnic group has a serious problem listening, learning, and changing and that is why things remain the same.

 

[JrChurch]

  ...it effects everything in America. 

Such a statement is a serious detraction from a reasoned argument.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=graceandtruth]Try listening to other people and not discounting their experience.  Accept that people are intelligent enough to process what is happening to them and what they are experiencing in life.  You can only learn and the problems can only be addressed with both sides of the issues are heard from both perspectives.[/quote]

I have agreed with you on some points regarding the Zimmerman case (like I have agreed with some of Castor's points). I would also agree with you here...

[quote author=graceandtruth]This thread seems to indicate that the majority ethnic group has a serious problem listening, learning, and changing and that is why things remain the same.[/quote]

...but this statement is every bit as racist as any of other statements that have been made (and some have been quite extreme).

 

[Castor Muscular]

I believe the reports state that there had been burgalrys in the neighborhood previous to this incident by young mostly black young males. Zimmerman was over zelaous for sure, but there are witnesses that have corroborated his side of the story

You must have missed this statement by Cave-dweller.

I did miss that.  But I don't see what is racist about it.  The question is whether or not his statement is factual.  Were there such reports or weren't there?  Now, one could argue whether or not it should have mattered if they were mostly black young males -- a reasonable argument, which I will not debate here. 

Again, I haven't read every post, but yours are the only posts that are easily identifiable as racist.  You even go out of your way to identify yourself as African-American (did anyone else here identify their own race?  I don't recall anyone doing so), as if that is supposed to add weight to your outrageous claim that it justifies assaulting someone. 

And then you conclude by claiming (in so many words) the IFB is a bunch of white racists, a statement which is practically the definition of prejudice. 

 

[graceandtruth]

  ...it effects everything in America. 

Such a statement is a serious detraction from a reasoned argument.

Not at all JrChurch.  You are laboring under the assumption that your experience is the experience of others which is not true.  All factors must be considered in a reasoned argument and ethnicity is an undeniable factor.

 

[graceandtruth]

[quote author=graceandtruth]Try listening to other people and not discounting their experience.  Accept that people are intelligent enough to process what is happening to them and what they are experiencing in life.  You can only learn and the problems can only be addressed with both sides of the issues are heard from both perspectives.

I have agreed with you on some points regarding the Zimmerman case (like I have agreed with some of Castor's points). I would also agree with you here...

[quote author=graceandtruth]This thread seems to indicate that the majority ethnic group has a serious problem listening, learning, and changing and that is why things remain the same.[/quote]

...but this statement is every bit as racist as any of other statements that have been made (and some have been quite extreme).
[/quote]

No racism in that statement.  The fact is that no one has admitted that there is even a remote possibility that their views on this case could be wrong.  No one has admitted that it is thuggish to stalk and pursue a person simply because of their ethnicity considering he did not have the photos of TM in the mirror and was not privy to TM's school record.  It is clear that no one is listening.

I also noticed that no one addressed prophet's incredibly unchristian post.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Castor Muscular]I did miss that.  But I don't see what is racist about it.  The question is whether or not his statement is factual.  Were there such reports or weren't there?  Now, one could argue whether or not it should have mattered if they were mostly black young males -- a reasonable argument, which I will not debate here.  [/quote]

Yes.

[quote author=graceandtruth]Again, I haven't read every post, but yours are the only posts that are easily identifiable as racist.  You even go out of your way to identify yourself as African-American (did anyone else here identify their own race?  I don't recall anyone doing so), as if that is supposed to add weight to your outrageous claim that it justifies assaulting someone. [/quote]

There have been others. (See prophet.)

[quote author=graceandtruth]And then you conclude by claiming (in so many words) the IFB is a bunch of white racists, a statement which is practically the definition of prejudice. [/quote]

And yes.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=graceandtruth]Try listening to other people and not discounting their experience.  Accept that people are intelligent enough to process what is happening to them and what they are experiencing in life.  You can only learn and the problems can only be addressed with both sides of the issues are heard from both perspectives.

I have agreed with you on some points regarding the Zimmerman case (like I have agreed with some of Castor's points). I would also agree with you here...

[quote author=graceandtruth]This thread seems to indicate that the majority ethnic group has a serious problem listening, learning, and changing and that is why things remain the same.

...but this statement is every bit as racist as any of other statements that have been made (and some have been quite extreme).
[/quote]

No racism in that statement.[/quote]

You just made a blanket statement about the "majority ethnic group", a very negative statement based solely on the ethnicity of said group. How is that not racist?

[quote author=graceandtruth]The fact is that no one has admitted that there is even a remote possibility that their views on this case could be wrong.[/quote]

First, that is untrue. I explicitly stated that I could be wrong. Secondly, irony much?

[quote author=graceandtruth]No one has admitted that it is thuggish to stalk and pursue a person simply because of their ethnicity considering he did not have the photos of TM in the mirror and was not privy to TM's school record.  It is clear that no one is listening.[/quote]

Actually I insinuated that very thing...

[quote author=graceandtruth]I also noticed that no one addressed prophet's incredibly unchristian post.[/quote]

Here again you'd be wrong.

 

[graceandtruth]

I believe the reports state that there had been burgalrys in the neighborhood previous to this incident by young mostly black young males. Zimmerman was over zelaous for sure, but there are witnesses that have corroborated his side of the story

You must have missed this statement by Cave-dweller.

Sorry rsc2a you have been a voice of reason in this thread.

I did miss that.  But I don't see what is racist about it.  The question is whether or not his statement is factual.  Were there such reports or weren't there?  Now, one could argue whether or not it should have mattered if they were mostly black young males -- a reasonable argument, which I will not debate here. 

Again, I haven't read every post, but yours are the only posts that are easily identifiable as racist.  You even go out of your way to identify yourself as African-American (did anyone else here identify their own race?  I don't recall anyone doing so), as if that is supposed to add weight to your outrageous claim that it justifies assaulting someone. 

And then you conclude by claiming (in so many words) the IFB is a bunch of white racists, a statement which is practically the definition of prejudice.

I forgot it is only racism when African-Americans' reference behavior they feel to be discriminatory.

Can you explain the demographics of IFB churches and explain why there is very little to no A-A representation in the congregation and even less in the leadership?  I am not saying all IFB's have this mentality.  I was saved in a church where no A-A's attended but the pastor was not racist and it made all the difference.  I have since met many pastors and congregants that are racists.  I always find it humorous because they claim to know the Scriptures and yet maintain a racists attitude. 


As for my identification as an A-A male, it is just as much a part of my makeup as my being Christian, southern, a veteran, male, father, husband, pastor, etc.  All of these things contribute to me being the person that I am and my life experiences.  I do not want any of these aspects of who I am to be ignored.  I am not impressed when people say things like, "I don't thin of you as being A-A".  I know that they are trying to be nice but it is insulting.  It means that you do not value my culture, my unique perspective from a unique experience, and you will not take time to learn to be sensitive to me or my culture.  This thread is an illustration of that in many instances.

I am by no means saying all of you guys are exactly the same.  I am not by any means saying that all of you are not willing to listen to the view of the person who is living the life to find out what that life is like.  I am saying that some of you are not willing to listen and learn. 

Let me illustrate with prophet's post which is crazzzzyyyyyy!  I think one person addressed the absurdity of his post but the rest just stood by doing nothing.  I have been called nigger by poor, middle class, and rich whites; educated & uneducated whites; young & old whites; etc.  I would never make statements like prophet made.  In my youth I have been attacked by multiple white assailants.  I never, even in my lost condition, deemed them worthy of death.  I am a Christian.  I know that they are flawed but still created in the image of God.  I know that sin and systemic acceptance of such behavior has made them bold sinners.  I know that what they need is not death and eternity separated from God but the Gospel.  So why would Christians sit by and let someone speak of a child who was killed like that and do nothing to point out the unbiblical nature of such thinking?  But instead demonstrate the on-sided nature of Z's defense.  If complete strangers are defending his actions so adamantly why wouldn't his neighbors lie for him as well?  After all we will never hear TM's side.  What if Z swung at TM and he avoided the punch and punched him in the nose?  What if the punch stunned Z and he feel to the ground hitting his own head on the street?  What if he then retaliated by shooting TM out of anger and shame?  Not possible?  No not in the world that TM and I must live in.

 

[OZZY]

I believe the reports state that there had been burgalrys in the neighborhood previous to this incident by young mostly black young males. Zimmerman was over zelaous for sure, but there are witnesses that have corroborated his side of the story

You must have missed this statement by Cave-dweller.

Sorry rsc2a you have been a voice of reason in this thread.

I did miss that.  But I don't see what is racist about it.  The question is whether or not his statement is factual.  Were there such reports or weren't there?  Now, one could argue whether or not it should have mattered if they were mostly black young males -- a reasonable argument, which I will not debate here. 

Again, I haven't read every post, but yours are the only posts that are easily identifiable as racist.  You even go out of your way to identify yourself as African-American (did anyone else here identify their own race?  I don't recall anyone doing so), as if that is supposed to add weight to your outrageous claim that it justifies assaulting someone. 

And then you conclude by claiming (in so many words) the IFB is a bunch of white racists, a statement which is practically the definition of prejudice.

I forgot it is only racism when African-Americans' reference behavior they feel to be discriminatory.

Can you explain the demographics of IFB churches and explain why there is very little to no A-A representation in the congregation and even less in the leadership?  I am not saying all IFB's have this mentality.  I was saved in a church where no A-A's attended but the pastor was not racist and it made all the difference.  I have since met many pastors and congregants that are racists.  I always find it humorous because they claim to know the Scriptures and yet maintain a racists attitude. 


As for my identification as an A-A male, it is just as much a part of my makeup as my being Christian, southern, a veteran, male, father, husband, pastor, etc.  All of these things contribute to me being the person that I am and my life experiences.  I do not want any of these aspects of who I am to be ignored.  I am not impressed when people say things like, "I don't thin of you as being A-A".  I know that they are trying to be nice but it is insulting.  It means that you do not value my culture, my unique perspective from a unique experience, and you will not take time to learn to be sensitive to me or my culture.  This thread is an illustration of that in many instances.

I am by no means saying all of you guys are exactly the same.  I am not by any means saying that all of you are not willing to listen to the view of the person who is living the life to find out what that life is like.  I am saying that some of you are not willing to listen and learn. 

Let me illustrate with prophet's post which is crazzzzyyyyyy!  I think one person addressed the absurdity of his post but the rest just stood by doing nothing.  I have been called nigger by poor, middle class, and rich whites; educated & uneducated whites; young & old whites; etc.  I would never make statements like prophet made.  In my youth I have been attacked by multiple white assailants.  I never, even in my lost condition, deemed them worthy of death.  I am a Christian.  I know that they are flawed but still created in the image of God.  I know that sin and systemic acceptance of such behavior has made them bold sinners.  I know that what they need is not death and eternity separated from God but the Gospel.  So why would Christians sit by and let someone speak of a child who was killed like that and do nothing to point out the unbiblical nature of such thinking?  But instead demonstrate the on-sided nature of Z's defense.  If complete strangers are defending his actions so adamantly why wouldn't his neighbors lie for him as well?  After all we will never hear TM's side.  What if Z swung at TM and he avoided the punch and punched him in the nose?  What if the punch stunned Z and he feel to the ground hitting his own head on the street?  What if he then retaliated by shooting TM out of anger and shame?  Not possible?  No not in the world that TM and I must live in.

Hyphenated Americans gotta love em 

 

[Castor Muscular]

Hyphenated Americans gotta love em

Any other countries stupid enough to do that?  I never heard of an African-German, or a Mexican-Frenchman, or an American-Nigerian. 

 

[lnf]

Graceandtruth, for what it's worth, I hear you loud and clear.  As a white female, I cannot understand the nuances of what it is to be a black male.  Thankfully, my parents did not raise me to be racist, but I realize that only means that I am not overtly racist.  It does not mean that I don't still harbor some racist attitudes, perhaps even without recognizing it.  But you, because of your experience, can see clearly in me what I don't recognize in myself. 

As for your statement that a black male will stand his ground and not trust the police, I understand that.  Not simply because of your statement, though.  I only need to look at my own teenage son.  But it did take your statement to bring Trayvon's actions into clearer focus for me.  Because, even though I know my son would probably fight rather than flee and I know without a doubt that he does not trust the police, I did not apply that knowledge into the events of that night.

So, how do I move forward?  Well, I promise you that I will strive to really listen to what you have to say on this subject.  Further, I pray that Holy Spirit will reveal those attitudes within me that do not show the love of Christ.

 

[graceandtruth]

Hyphenated Americans gotta love em

Any other countries stupid enough to do that?  I never heard of an African-German, or a Mexican-Frenchman, or an American-Nigerian.

Sorry maybe you are unaware that the only Americans would be the Native Americans.  You do remember them?  The people group whose genocide was the back drop to western expansion. 

All of the rest of us come from some other country.  There many events planned throughout the U.S. to celebrate particular cultures.  All Americans are free to mention their ancestry except those of us who are of African descent.  Unlike the other ethnic groups populating America who still maintain much of their cultural heritage those of African descent were not afforded such luxuries.  The brutal assimilation of slavery was designed to strip us of native languages and customs and identity.  Can we at least mention the continent of our ancestry without being belittled?  Come on........the arguments are getting weaker and weaker.

 

[qwerty]

Tonto should have bought skittles.

 

[JrChurch]

Not at all JrChurch.  You are laboring under the assumption that your experience is the experience of others which is not true.  All factors must be considered in a reasoned argument and ethnicity is an undeniable factor.

I made no assumptions.  Neither did I reference my experiences nor the experiences of others.  Although I do have an opinion of you based on your statements, I have not expressed said opinion.  No need to do so.

 

[cave_dweller]

Hyphenated Americans gotta love em

Any other countries stupid enough to do that?  I never heard of an African-German, or a Mexican-Frenchman, or an American-Nigerian.

Sorry maybe you are unaware that the only Americans would be the Native Americans.  You do remember them?  The people group whose genocide was the back drop to western expansion. 

All of the rest of us come from some other country.  There many events planned throughout the U.S. to celebrate particular cultures.  All Americans are free to mention their ancestry except those of us who are of African descent.  Unlike the other ethnic groups populating America who still maintain much of their cultural heritage those of African descent were not afforded such luxuries.  The brutal assimilation of slavery was designed to strip us of native languages and customs and identity.  Can we at least mention the continent of our ancestry without being belittled?  Come on........the arguments are getting weaker and weaker.

There are thousands of black shooting black victions every year and they do not get crazy publicity. Why was this shooting any different?