History of baptists...to which theory do you subscribe?

[AverageJoe]

That is a shame about Sam. What was his background? Was he IFBx?

Here's another quick story from a vacation church we attended. Once again this one stems from me not doing my research ahead of time well enough for a "like faith" church. We were on vacation and the Poconos and decided to go to the nearest Baptist Church to our resort condo. I was pretty staunch KJVo at the time, so of course you can imagine my consternation when I got sat down and pulled out the Bible in the pew and it was an NIV. Well, the first thing that went wrong was their music was, <gasp> CONTEMPORARY!.... but worse than that, they sang 10 or 12 songs. Everybody knows a Baptist Church you only sing two or three hymns and then the offertory. We finally got through that and then the sermon commenced. Keep in mind that the culture here is far from Appalachia or the Bible belt South. We are in the Northeast, Pennsylvania particularly, not far from New York. The pastor began preaching and things were pretty quiet in the church but after a while it was getting good and me being an amen kind of guy, I let out a modest subdued "amen". The preacher immediately pauses for a split second and looked my way and then resumed the sermon. Thought it was weird but, whatever. He really got rolling after that. Don't get me wrong, he wasn't spitting and shouting and screaming. No hellfire and brimstone. But it was solid exegesis and exposition, a good sermon, so I let out another amen, this one a little bit more robust but no shouting or excessive volume.The preacher stopped again looked over my way and said " yeah, amen brother, I'm glad somebody in here this morning is getting it".... Awkward! Wasn't too much longer after that in the sermon wound down and we slithered out of there before the congregation stoned me for shaming them!

Brother Sam was a pastor for the GARBC and the American Baptists. He was divorced and remarried (not necessarily a problem for me) and was having a lot of trouble in some areas. He seemed to always think that everyone was out to get him, which wasn't true, but he felt that way. He lacked confidence. But, that's nothing to disqualify him from anything either. The last time I had communication with him was about two years ago, and he was very bitter about some things and just couldn't let some things go. It was sad, really. But, I told him that he just needed to depend more on the Lord and less on his own power. I hope he listened.
I know how you feel about finding churches of like faith and practice. Sometimes it's hard to do. We will visit churches if we know they're sound but we don't usually find them.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Brother Sam was a pastor for the GARBC and the American Baptists. He was divorced and remarried (not necessarily a problem for me) and was having a lot of trouble in some areas. He seemed to always think that everyone was out to get him, which wasn't true, but he felt that way. He lacked confidence. But, that's nothing to disqualify him from anything either. The last time I had communication with him was about two years ago, and he was very bitter about some things and just couldn't let some things go. It was sad, really. But, I told him that he just needed to depend more on the Lord and less on his own power. I hope he listened.
I know how you feel about finding churches of like faith and practice. Sometimes it's hard to do. We will visit churches if we know they're sound but we don't usually find them.

Well, I do remember the name, but can't recall any essence of his posting habits. As you said, none of that matters now, as he is seeing what eyes have never seen and ears have never heard.

 

[Ransom]

Well, I do remember the name, but can't recall any essence of his posting habits. As you said, none of that matters now, as he is seeing what eyes have never seen and ears have never heard.

He was notorious at the time for asking for prayers for his wife, who was dying of cancer.

Before long it came out that either his wife was just fine, or he didn't have a wife at all at the time. (I don't remember which.) He beclowned himself rather badly, and as I recall, didn't stick around much longer.

 

[ALAYMAN]

He was notorious at the time for asking for prayers for his wife, who was dying of cancer.

Before long it came out that either his wife was just fine, or he didn't have a wife at all at the time. (I don't remember which.) He beclowned himself rather badly, and as I recall, didn't stick around much longer. It is one of the truly contemptible aspects that accompany the nature of social media platforms, usually due to blatant anonymity, that people often appear as something they clearly and truly are not. Another reason I generally disdain trolls and certain kinds of sockpuppets.

Yes, that clears out a few cobwebs.

It also points to one of my peaves about social media and the online worlds, namely that a person can hide behind a keyboard, often anonymously, to appear as something they are clearly not. Which is one of the reasons for my disdain towards trolls and certain varieties of sockpuppets.

 

[AverageJoe]

He was notorious at the time for asking for prayers for his wife, who was dying of cancer.

Before long it came out that either his wife was just fine, or he didn't have a wife at all at the time. (I don't remember which.) He beclowned himself rather badly, and as I recall, didn't stick around much longer.

You're right, Scott. He lied about his wife having cancer...she was just fine. She did have some MINOR illness, and that was it. I don't know who was attacking him, but he thought for sure it was me since I was down in his neck of the woods at times visiting friends and relatives. I couldn't have cared less about the misadventures of his family. It wasn't long after he left the FFF that he contacted me about his leaving the church he pastored for another venture. I didn't mind him contacting me. I knew he didn't have many friends. I tried to be as kind to him as I could be, but he often made it very difficult. I was, however, sorry to see that he had passed at such a young age.

 

[aleshanee]

Really nice post, reminds me a little of the FFF glory days...you may posthumously get a Pickle U Dawktorate! On a more serious note, along with your mention of how the "true church" mantra of option "D" will lead to the demand of re-ordination is that those who are not in the chain, but are "baptist", will be on the outside fringes at the wedding supper (at least operating from my ancient memory and long ago study of some Landmarkers). hmmm, I may have just thought of another different thought for a thread.

i actually have one of those doctorates from the Petersonic Institue of all Cankerous Knowledge Left on Earth myself too.. (Pickle U)..... (or was it Candorous knowledge... ..i don;t rmember) .... but ironically.... . according to what i am reading in this and also the thread about alien baptisms i am not... and never was... a baptist.... ...main reason being that though i was saved through the bus ministry of a baptist church, the baptists did not baptize me.... .. i wasn;t baptized until i moved here and joined a lutheran church.... they accepted my profession of faith then baptized me a few minutes later in the ocean... .which, being right on the beach.. was that churches official baptistry...... ..
.............but what i am wondering is.... would that make a difference according to baptists?.... do they accept a lutheran baptism as authentic?..... and what of others like me in the distant past?.... saved under baptist teachings.... perhaps even went on to follow and teach baptist beliefs.... but never carrying the actual name of baptists?.. would they not be part of the chain?... or considered to be on the same trail?........ ..is it the name it most important or the actual beliefs and doctrines followed?.. ....because i know of a few churches that have the baptist name but do not follow the baptist beliefs... from what i can tell they morphed with local tradition and adopted other contemporary ideology. ... ... yet i have no doubt they would count themselves as part of the chain... whether unbroken or not.....

 

[illinoisguy]

Lutheran baptisms, by immersion, are rare - mostly they sprinkle, although I believe baptism by immersion may have been more common among Lutherans back in the 16th Century. So the question of whether a Baptist church would accept a new member based on Lutheran immersion would come up very rarely, and I am not aware of such a case being presented before a Baptist congregation. Any Baptist church considering such an application for membership should take into consideration that, if they accept an immersion from any non-Baptist church (or a Baptistic church not using the Baptist name, or a church using the Baptist name but not holding to Baptist doctrine) then, by accepting such an immersion, they are implying their recognition that such a church is a true church. And by implying that, they are implying that they would be willing to grant a letter of transfer of membership for any of their own members wishing to go join that other church whose immersion they accepted as valid.

Generally speaking, the policy of most Baptist churches is that they will accept immersions from other churches of "like faith and practice." The definition of "like faith and practice" may or not include non-Baptist churches that are Baptistic - every church has its own policy. Most fundamental Baptists would not recognize Lutheran churches as being of "like faith and practice," due to their infant baptism and other beliefs and practices. Not only that, but there is the question of whether any baptism (Catholic, Lutheran, Campbellite, etc), that is administered with the understanding that the subjects of baptism are saved by being baptized, would be or should be accepted as valid by Baptists - in my opinion, they should not be. How do I know that Lutherans believe that they are saved by their baptism? Well, I have read Luther and he believed in baptismal regeneration. In recent years I have read two lengthy, detailed testimonies by adult non-Lutheran converts to the Lutheran church, and both of them made it very clear that it was their understanding that they were saved by being baptized. Most Lutherans, even conservative confessionals such as the recently deceased Christian News editor Herman Otten (a great defender of the faith) would say that they were born again at their infant baptism. I am not judging Lutherans or saying that they are not saved - I hope that they are. I was once an active member of an LCMS Lutheran singles organization and I think Lutherans are great folks. All I am saying is, in response to the inquiry, I do not believe that most fundamental Baptist churches would accept Lutheran baptisms as valid (especially not if by sprinkling).

I believe most fundamental Baptist churches would never ask if the church you were baptized in was part of the Trail of Blood chain - only a few zealots really care about that any of that stuff these days.

 

[aleshanee]

Lutheran baptisms, by immersion, are rare - mostly they sprinkle, although I believe baptism by immersion may have been more common among Lutherans back in the 16th Century. So the question of whether a Baptist church would accept a new member based on Lutheran immersion would come up very rarely, and I am not aware of such a case being presented before a Baptist congregation. Any Baptist church considering such an application for membership should take into consideration that, if they accept an immersion from any non-Baptist church (or a Baptistic church not using the Baptist name, or a church using the Baptist name but not holding to Baptist doctrine) then, by accepting such an immersion, they are implying their recognition that such a church is a true church. And by implying that, they are implying that they would be willing to grant a letter of transfer of membership for any of their own members wishing to go join that other church whose immersion they accepted as valid.

Generally speaking, the policy of most Baptist churches is that they will accept immersions from other churches of "like faith and practice." The definition of "like faith and practice" may or not include non-Baptist churches that are Baptistic - every church has its own policy. Most fundamental Baptists would not recognize Lutheran churches as being of "like faith and practice," due to their infant baptism and other beliefs and practices. Not only that, but there is the question of whether any baptism (Catholic, Lutheran, Campbellite, etc), that is administered with the understanding that the subjects of baptism are saved by being baptized, would be or should be accepted as valid by Baptists - in my opinion, they should not be. How do I know that Lutherans believe that they are saved by their baptism? Well, I have read Luther and he believed in baptismal regeneration. In recent years I have read two lengthy, detailed testimonies by adult non-Lutheran converts to the Lutheran church, and both of them made it very clear that it was their understanding that they were saved by being baptized. Most Lutherans, even conservative confessionals such as the recently deceased Christian News editor Herman Otten (a great defender of the faith) would say that they were born again at their infant baptism. I am not judging Lutherans or saying that they are not saved - I hope that they are. I was once an active member of an LCMS Lutheran singles organization and I think Lutherans are great folks. All I am saying is, in response to the inquiry, I do not believe that most fundamental Baptist churches would accept Lutheran baptisms as valid (especially not if by sprinkling).

I believe most fundamental Baptist churches would never ask if the church you were baptized in was part of the Trail of Blood chain - only a few zealots really care about that any of that stuff these days.

thanks for your reply..... it was, at that time, a fairly rare and very conservative lutheran church.... it;s not any more...and that is why i left it.... . i was under the impression when i joined that they were going to accept me as a member without asking if i had been baptized until i spoke up and said something..... i also volunteered to them that i had never been baptized as a baby in the catholic church either, due to their strict belief on bastard births...... all i rmember of that incident was that my mother was still upset about it years later though i doubt it had any effect on her church attendance... (or non-attendance as it were)..... so when i went to church on the bus with my friend from school who invited me, i was ripe pickings for that baptist church if they had been paying attention.... sadly they were not.... .. my friend ..(a fellow third grader)... led me to christ on that very same bus on the way home....... ..........various people since then.... some i met online... and some i met in person here in hawaii have taken it on themselves to question my salvation experience... claimed it was too much like a 1,2,3, repeat after me situation.... but i know it was not..... ...... ...but looking back on it now... it;s possible the lutheran pastor who baptized me thought that i was being saved at that time.. i never considered that before... . and if he did believe that he didn;t tell me that and i don;t rmember seeing any other baptisms there and being under the impression they though the baptism itself was saving them.... ...... a large portion of that church was former baptists ..incluging the family i was living with and went there with.... and i think he might have been a former baptist himself..... .... in fact he said what i have heard quoted by many baptists.... "buried in the likeness of his death... raised in the likeness of his resurrection".. during every baptism and also when i was baptized.... .. ..but i knew even then it was not his words, or even what was in his heart, that saved me... but what was in my own.... .the church i am a member of now is christian congregational and they accepted my lutheran baptism.... but then i also told them it was an emersion....

 

[ALAYMAN]

i actually have one of those doctorates from the Petersonic Institue of all Cankerous Knowledge Left on Earth myself too.. (Pickle U)..... (or was it Candorous knowledge... ..i don;t rmember) .... but ironically.... . according to what i am reading in this and also the thread about alien baptisms i am not... and never was... a baptist.... ...main reason being that though i was saved through the bus ministry of a baptist church, the baptists did not baptize me.... .. i wasn;t baptized until i moved here and joined a lutheran church.... they accepted my profession of faith then baptized me a few minutes later in the ocean... .which, being right on the beach.. was that churches official baptistry...... ..
.............but what i am wondering is.... would that make a difference according to baptists?.... do they accept a lutheran baptism as authentic?..... and what of others like me in the distant past?.... saved under baptist teachings.... perhaps even went on to follow and teach baptist beliefs.... but never carrying the actual name of baptists?.. would they not be part of the chain?... or considered to be on the same trail?........ ..is it the name it most important or the actual beliefs and doctrines followed?.. ....because i know of a few churches that have the baptist name but do not follow the baptist beliefs... from what i can tell they morphed with local tradition and adopted other contemporary ideology. ... ... yet i have no doubt they would count themselves as part of the chain... whether unbroken or not.....

I had actually forgot what the tarnation that acronym stood for, so thanks for that!

illinoisguy gave a good and accurate enough response to cover the essence of your question, but I will add one thing. By their very nature in polity Baptists are independent/autonomous (boy, we could really open up some cans of worms regarding the cliquishness and nigh cult-like nature of some "camp" followin' though), and as such they will of Biblical necessity set their own governance and doctrinal statements/policies, without "denominational" and hierarchical interference. You essentially at minimum skirted that reality by saying some "baptist" churches are in name only. But in setting their own doctrinal path there will be inevitably some variations in the implemenation of some teachings, usually inconsequential (yet controversial) differences, like music preferences, Bible versions, complementarian vs egalitarian roles etc. Many of these differences will boil down to whether they are of a certain lineage like puritan/reformed, or Independent vs Southern Baptist, etc, etc, etc. There are as many baptists as there are types of fish in the ocean, but the overwhelming majority will demand that their membership be filled by regenerate and immersed church folk. However, here is a notable example of the ministry of John Piper (Bethlehem Baptist, from which he is now retired)....

The most obvious change this involves is allowing the possibility that a person may become a member who has not been baptized by immersion as a believer but who regards the baptismal ritual he received in infancy not as regenerating, but nevertheless (as with most Presbyterians) in such a way that it would violate his conscience to be baptized as a believer. The elders are proposing that under certain conditions such persons be admitted to full membership.

where the issue of a prominent, relatively theologically sound Baptist church caught a lot of controversy/criticism for admitting to membership those who would be similarly described in a situation such as yours. What I would say about the whole thing, is that doctrine and practice is important, but your conscience as led by Scriptural conviction should rule the day regardless of definitions and descriptions by other Christians. And in parlance that you might be familiar with by way of some of the old dust-ups of the FFF it could be said "we don't tell other preachers what to preach in their churches" (usually said in defending extreme autonomy on some crazy issue like shooting up TVs from wicked Hellywood!).

 

[aleshanee]

I had actually forgot what the tarnation that acronym stood for, so thanks for that!

illinoisguy gave a good and accurate enough response to cover the essence of your question, but I will add one thing. By their very nature in polity Baptists are independent/autonomous (boy, we could really open up some cans of worms regarding the cliquishness and nigh cult-like nature of some "camp" followin' though), and as such they will of Biblical necessity set their own governance and doctrinal statements/policies, without "denominational" and hierarchical interference. You essentially at minimum skirted that reality by saying some "baptist" churches are in name only. But in setting their own doctrinal path there will be inevitably some variations in the implemenation of some teachings, usually inconsequential (yet controversial) differences, like music preferences, Bible versions, complementarian vs egalitarian roles etc. Many of these differences will boil down to whether they are of a certain lineage like puritan/reformed, or Independent vs Southern Baptist, etc, etc, etc. There are as many baptists as there are types of fish in the ocean, but the overwhelming majority will demand that their membership be filled by regenerate and immersed church folk. However, here is a notable example of the ministry of John Piper (Bethlehem Baptist, from which he is now retired)....


where the issue of a prominent, relatively theologically sound Baptist church caught a lot of controversy/criticism for admitting to membership those who would be similarly described in a situation such as yours. What I would say about the whole thing, is that doctrine and practice is important, but your conscience as led by Scriptural conviction should rule the day regardless of definitions and descriptions by other Christians. And in parlance that you might be familiar with by way of some of the old dust-ups of the FFF it could be said "we don't tell other preachers what to preach in their churches" (usually said in defending extreme autonomy on some crazy issue like shooting up TVs from wicked Hellywood!).

.
i remember some of those old fff conversations..... even something about how somebody used their old rock and roll records for skeet shooting?.... ...we used a cd we didn;t like for archery practice once.. ..it wasn;t because we had convictions against the music or anything.... it was just a really bad cd.... and how could we not shoot it rather than just thrown it away?.... it was so bright and shiny... glimmering in the sun.... i thought i couldn;t miss it..... and i didn;t... ... ...but i learned 2 things that day.... one was those cds are really tough!.... my arrow shot from from the 35 pound draw-weight bow i used at the time cracked the cd.... but the arrow also broke in half on impact.... .and second... (which occured to me later thinking about people shooting records they thought were evil.)... was if you are going to take a shot at destroying evil.... don;t go about it lightly...... ....a heavy weight arrow shot from my dads 83 pound draw-weight longbow shattered what was left of it and sent shimmering pieces flying in all directions..... and his arrow didn;t break.... (of course i helped make it for him... so part of that victory was mine)..... .

there were many things i couldn;t agree with where some of the baptist churches i visited were concerned. .... (like the charismatic issue... actually dancing in church during what they called a "praise" session etc)..... but the thing that turned me off the most was their claim to be ministering to domestic abuse issues yet focusing entirely on rehabilitating men fresh out of jail... some of whom looked like they couldn;t care less about rehabilitation and were just glad to be out of jail...... while at the same time ignoring, and in some cases even making things worse for the women and children those men abused in the first place.... ....they always fell back on the defense that it was part of their jail ministry... to which i would ask where is it commanded in scripture that a church is supposed to have a jail ministry?..... .....but that made me just as unpopular there as it probably would here... and i apologize to anyone currently involved in a jail ministry and please understand i know you do valuable work.... .... but my calling to service in regards to ministries outside the church doors was in another direction... towards the victims.. ... and i didn;t believe the two could be mixed under the same roof.... ...at least not the way i have seen churches who tried it went about it.....

.

 

[illinoisguy]

Alayman, I recall that this proposed policy change at Bethlehem Baptist in 2005 raised a few eyebrows. Do you recall whether Bethlehem Baptist adopted this change? It was my impression that they backed off on this proposal, but I could be wrong. This is just me, but if I was acting as a representative of a Baptist church, and if a Presbyterian wanted to join our Baptist church based on Presbyterian principles and a Presbyterian conscience, I would graciously suggest that they consider joining a Presbyterian church, rather than asking our Baptist church to change and repudiate our historical distinctives and our entire reason for existence, just to accommodate one Presbyterian guy who wants to keep on being Presbyterian without joining a Presbyterian church. If I wanted to join a Presbyterian church, I would not ask them to change all their rules and repudiate their entire historic Presbyterian heritage, just for little old me. But hey, that's just me.

Aleshanee, I'll admit that some Baptist churches have wrongly taken the side of an abusive husband rather than standing with the abused wife, and that is wrong. It probably happens in a lot of non-Baptist churches too, but that does not excuse it when Baptists do it.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Alayman, I recall that this proposed policy change at Bethlehem Baptist in 2005 raised a few eyebrows. Do you recall whether Bethlehem Baptist adopted this change? It was my impression that they backed off on this proposal, but I could be wrong.

I don't think they ever imposed the resolution, at least not as of 2012 where I saw some folks in leadership of Bethlehem Baptist on the website The Gospel Coalition saying that the majority of leadership and elders were for it still at that time. Of course more recently they have had much more difficulties than worrying about membership requirements, as many of the leadership have resigned over internal strife related to racial issues.

 

[ALAYMAN]

.
i remember some of those old fff conversations..... even something about how somebody used their old rock and roll records for skeet shooting?.... ...we used a cd we didn;t like for archery practice once.. ..it wasn;t because we had convictions against the music or anything.... it was just a really bad cd.... and how could we not shoot it rather than just thrown it away?.... it was so bright and shiny... glimmering in the sun.... i thought i couldn;t miss it..... and i didn;t... ... ...but i learned 2 things that day.... one was those cds are really tough!.... my arrow shot from from the 35 pound draw-weight bow i used at the time cracked the cd.... but the arrow also broke in half on impact.... .and second... (which occured to me later thinking about people shooting records they thought were evil.)... was if you are going to take a shot at destroying evil.... don;t go about it lightly...... ....a heavy weight arrow shot from my dads 83 pound draw-weight longbow shattered what was left of it and sent shimmering pieces flying in all directions..... and his arrow didn;t break.... (of course i helped make it for him... so part of that victory was mine)..... .

there were many things i couldn;t agree with where some of the baptist churches i visited were concerned. .... (like the charismatic issue... actually dancing in church during what they called a "praise" session etc)..... but the thing that turned me off the most was their claim to be ministering to domestic abuse issues yet focusing entirely on rehabilitating men fresh out of jail... some of whom looked like they couldn;t care less about rehabilitation and were just glad to be out of jail...... while at the same time ignoring, and in some cases even making things worse for the women and children those men abused in the first place.... ....they always fell back on the defense that it was part of their jail ministry... to which i would ask where is it commanded in scripture that a church is supposed to have a jail ministry?..... .....but that made me just as unpopular there as it probably would here... and i apologize to anyone currently involved in a jail ministry and please understand i know you do valuable work.... .... but my calling to service in regards to ministries outside the church doors was in another direction... towards the victims.. ... and i didn;t believe the two could be mixed under the same roof.... ...at least not the way i have seen churches who tried it went about it.....

.

I'm better with 12 gauge pump than a bow, but it's been so long since I've shot skeet that I probably wouldn't fare very well in that either.

If I remember some of those conversations of the old FFF about jail ministry in regarded rehabilitation of those who had engaged in child abuse. That is a very precarious ministry for sure and should only be done with the most utmost delicate handling in respect to the vulnerable within the congregation. I do have a jail ministry myself, but it involves me going into the jails to preach the gospel. Unfortunately, it has not been available since the pandemic shutdowns.

 

[aleshanee]

I'm better with 12 gauge pump than a bow, but it's been so long since I've shot ski that I probably wouldn't fare very well in that either.

If I remember some of those conversations of the old FFF about jail ministry in regarded rehabilitation of those who had engaged in child abuse. That is a very precarious ministry for sure and should only be done with the most utmost delicate handling in respect to the vulnerable within the congregation. I do have a jail ministry myself, but it involves me going into the jails to preach the gospel. Unfortunately, it has not been available since the pandemic shutdowns.

.
i still haven;t tried to shoot one of those yet.... i have been offered the chance a few times.. under supervision of course... ..but something inside always tells me no.. ...guns scare me as much as flying in a plane does... ...and yet some would say i;m obsessed with fighter jets and attack helicopters.... . things that involve both flying and guns..... ...it;s weird... i know........ ..
........... ..but with regards to baptist churches and in keeping with the spirit of thread.... when did ministries of that nature start in the church?... was it borroed from another denomination?... taken over from the state?....could that establish where a link in a chain might be if such things were discovered?.... ..... ....... ............... scripture doesn;t record any apostle or prophet going into a jail unless they were there as an involuntary guest... not a visitor..... ...i must admit though... ..i have never studied church history much... not even the histories of the churches i have been a member of... with the exception of specific people and events deemed significant..... ... i do know however that the ancestors of the baptists were heavily persecuted... ...but even with what little i know of my own ancestors... (the hispanic part).... i sometimes get a feeling they might have been among those persecuting them....

 

[ALAYMAN]

.
i still haven;t tried to shoot one of those yet.... i have been offered the chance a few times.. under supervision of course... ..but something inside always tells me no.. ...guns scare me as much as flying in a plane does... ...and yet some would say i;m obsessed with fighter jets and attack helicopters.... . things that involve both flying and guns..... ...it;s weird... i know........ ..
........... ..but with regards to baptist churches and in keeping with the spirit of thread.... when did ministries of that nature start in the church?... was it borroed from another denomination?... taken over from the state?....could that establish where a link in a chain might be if such things were discovered?.... ..... ....... ............... scripture doesn;t record any apostle or prophet going into a jail unless they were there as an involuntary guest... not a visitor..... ...i must admit though... ..i have never studied church history much... not even the histories of the churches i have been a member of... with the exception of specific people and events deemed significant..... ... i do know however that the ancestors of the baptists were heavily persecuted... ...but even with what little i know of my own ancestors... (the hispanic part).... i sometimes get a feeling they might have been among those persecuting them....

I guess I never really ever thought about the history of prison ministry, never thought about whether it had roots in a specific denomination. There was a group that had long history in our church that came and testified about prison ministry and that caught my attention and then when our church started that ministry I assisted in it just to see how people could be helped. But there is a verse that came to mind immediately when you asked the question...
Matt 25:36 ...., and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Of course there are other principles in the Bible about hope forgiveness and redemption that most folks apply towards their heart for that ministry.

 

[aleshanee]

I guess I never really ever thought about the history of prison ministry, never thought about whether it had roots in a specific denomination. There was a group that had long history in our church that came and testified about prison ministry and that caught my attention and then when our church started that ministry I assisted in it just to see how people could be helped. But there is a verse that came to mind immediately when you asked the question...
Matt 25:36 ...., and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Of course there are other principles in the Bible about hope forgiveness and redemption that most folks apply towards their heart for that ministry.

not to split hairs, or even worse come off as being judgemental.... but in that section Jesus is talking about Himself...and speaking to those at the judgement who are wanting to enter heaven.... He is speaking of his followers in life that the people before Him should have ministered to.... ....and the entire thought actually starts in the verse numbered before vrs 36 in vrs 35. ..

matthew 25 35 -36 .. .... for I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in;..... ..naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

what i see in all those things He lists are situations people would have found themselves in due to no fault of their own.... .. hunger... thirst.... a stranger in a strange place.... naked... sick..... and even being in prison as it related to Jesus ...because He was innocent when He was thrown into jail... and the romans had no reason to put Him there.... .. just as paul.. silas... and luke found themselves in prison for committing no crime other than preaching the gospel....... granted Jesus doesn;t give a reason for His imprisionment in these verses where His followers would be expected to visit Him...... but i can't even imagine Him saying that to them and the reason for imprisonment being the subject we were talking about......

and i;m not speaking out against the prison ministries at all... or saying they should not exist... i certainly believe in hope, forgiveness and redemption for people who find themselves run afoul of the law and incarcerated... ...... .but i know there was a time when the state did not give churches a choice to rehabilitate.... people committing certain kinds of crimes never came out of jail alive or until they had a very short life left to live........ many years back the state changed it;s mission from being one of punishment in prison, to a mission of rehabilitation ... and i can see why the churches would want to make rehab and redemptiion their own ministry and not leave those things to the state........ ... .... .... i;m just still bewildered sometimes as to why they haven;t taken that approach with other things.... such as mental illness.... most all churches have at least now recognized that seizures have a medical reason behind them.... but the state and medical community ..even other major christian denominations, have recognized mental illnessness like schizophrenia had medical reasons behind them too.... and they have been treating those issues medically for a few decades now.... yet all over the country some baptist churches still consider schizophrenia to be an issue of demon possession.. or at the very minimum a behavorial issue....

 

[ALAYMAN]

not to split hairs, or even worse come off as being judgemental.... but in that section Jesus is talking about Himself...and speaking to those at the judgement who are wanting to enter heaven.... He is speaking of his followers in life that the people before Him should have ministered to.... ....and the entire thought actually starts in the verse numbered before vrs 36 in vrs 35. ..

matthew 25 35 -36 .. .... for I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in;..... ..naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

what i see in all those things He lists are situations people would have found themselves in due to no fault of their own.... .. hunger... thirst.... a stranger in a strange place.... naked... sick..... and even being in prison as it related to Jesus ...because He was innocent when He was thrown into jail... and the romans had no reason to put Him there.... .. just as paul.. silas... and luke found themselves in prison for committing no crime other than preaching the gospel....... granted Jesus doesn;t give a reason for His imprisionment in these verses where His followers would be expected to visit Him...... but i can't even imagine Him saying that to them and the reason for imprisonment being the subject we were talking about......

and i;m not speaking out against the prison ministries at all... or saying they should not exist... i certainly believe in hope, forgiveness and redemption for people who find themselves run afoul of the law and incarcerated... ...... .but i know there was a time when the state did not give churches a choice to rehabilitate.... people committing certain kinds of crimes never came out of jail alive or until they had a very short life left to live........ many years back the state changed it;s mission from being one of punishment in prison, to a mission of rehabilitation ... and i can see why the churches would want to make rehab and redemptiion their own ministry and not leave those things to the state........ ... .... .... i;m just still bewildered sometimes as to why they haven;t taken that approach with other things.... such as mental illness.... most all churches have at least now recognized that seizures have a medical reason behind them.... but the state and medical community ..even other major christian denominations, have recognized mental illnessness like schizophrenia had medical reasons behind them too.... and they have been treating those issues medically for a few decades now.... yet all over the country some baptist churches still consider schizophrenia to be an issue of demon possession.. or at the very minimum a behavorial issue....

I agree with you about the context of the verse relating to salvation of the righteous and judgment of the goats. And with that context, I am not saying that passage is a mandate or command, but yet is a demonstration by principle for the life of compassion and servitude that ought to be the goal of those that are servants of Christ. There are many areas of service mentioned in that passage obviously besides prison ministry. We have had such ministries as food pantries and clothing drives. The prison ministry is just another extension of reaching out to hurting people with compassion and the hope of the Gospel. I'm not sure that I wouldn't categorize our efforts as that of rehabilitation, but rather change lives through a relationship with Christ. And at the end of the day, I believe the state responsibility for punishment is a separate issue from the spiritual needs brought about through ministry.

Regarding ministries to those with mental illnesses, I am far less inclined to be dogmatic about the church's role. Where professional psychological and psychiatric help is warranted I believe that the church should defer to those qualified in dealing with those issues. Those who speak about mental health issues in purely spiritual terms, disregarding the assistance that people need from medical professionals, are very badly in error about their role in helping people get healed.

 

[Walt]

The chart that Alayman references in post #9, that comes from the "Trail of Blood" booklet, lists a lot of medieval groups but there is no documentation to show that they were Baptistic. The Montanists believed in new revelations after the completion of the New Testament, they had women preachers, they were similar to modern charismatics. Novatian, founder of the sect of that name, was "baptized" by pouring because he was sick at the time - not a very good role model for Baptists. The main issue between the Donatists and the Roman Catholics was that Donatists rejected the validity of sacraments performed by unworthy clergy, while Roman Catholics insisted that such sacraments were valid. (Today, most IFBs would side with the Roman Catholics on that particular issue - very few if any IFBs would reject baptisms performed in the churches of Jack or Dave Hyles based on the moral turpitude of those pastors).

Thanks for the post... I would point out that Roman Catholics controlled society pretty much, and thus wrote and taught the history, so some of these groups may have been more baptistic than they are reported to have been. If I remember correctly, the Roman Catholics claimed that the Anabaptist heresy went back to the earliest days of their church.

 

[illinoisguy]

Walt may be referring to the famous "Hosius Quote" from "The Trail of Blood:" "Were it not that the baptists [or Anabaptists] have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past 1200 years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers." (Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, pp. 112, 113.)

I personally believe that this quote is of very doubtful authenticity. Some years ago, I put out a request for documentation of the authenticity of this quote, and I got no response, except from Herb Evans (aka Hreb) who assured me that the quote is phony. Even if the quote is authentic, it proves nothing. Even if Cardinal Hosius in the 16th Century did believe that Anabaptists had existed for 12 centuries prior to his time, that does not prove that they did exist. And as I have previously noted, not all Anabaptists were baptistic, or even close to it.

Those wishing to research the question of the Hosius quote can check these links, from forums where this issue has been thoroughly hashed out:

I research on a quote used in the Trail of Blood - Landmark Baptist (tapatalk.com)

Cardinal Hosius | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

"Trail of Blood" - Supposed Baptist Apostolic Succession | Christian Forums