I've run across quite a few people lately who claim they have a private prayer language. I never really heard much of this until recently. Does anyone know of this being taught/practiced throughout church history?
Not throughout Church History but very much prevalent in the Calvary Chapel denomination. They use Romans 8:26 as a proof text but have never seen a Calvary Chapel person actually putting this into practice. Perhaps this was a way for Calvary Chapel preachers to keep the babbling nonsense away from their public meetings and since the motive for "Putting on a Public Display" has been done away with, they have pretty much lost any other motive? I mean what fun is there babbling like a baby if no one else is around to be "Impressed" with your "spirituality?"I've run across quite a few people lately who claim they have a private prayer language. I never really heard much of this until recently. Does anyone know of this being taught/practiced throughout church history?
As I've said, our pastor says he practices this "gift" in his private prayer life though I've never heard him reference Roman's 8:26 as his reasoning. In my time with CC, I've always heard this passage expounded as the Holy Spirit attending our prayers when we don't know how to pray. We can, by faith, rely on Him to supply what we ourselves are incapable of. I rely upon this principle daily. No she-rode-a-hondas have ever emerged from my lips. I simply rely on Him to present the desires of my spirit as prayers as only He can.Not throughout Church History but very much prevalent in the Calvary Chapel denomination. They use Romans 8:26 as a proof text but have never seen a Calvary Chapel person actually putting this into practice. Perhaps this was a way for Calvary Chapel preachers to keep the babbling nonsense away from their public meetings and since the motive for "Putting on a Public Display" has been done away with, they have pretty much lost any other motive? I mean what fun is there babbling like a baby if no one else is around to be "Impressed" with your "spirituality?"
That's a common interpretation of 1 Cor. 14:2: "For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit."I've run across quite a few people lately who claim they have a private prayer language. I never really heard much of this until recently. Does anyone know of this being taught/practiced throughout church history?
I have hardly ever heard Calvary Chapel preachers speak of this. CC is of Pentecostal origin (Chuck Smith was a Foursquare Preacher) but quickly distanced themselves from the loony bin side of Charismania so I was guessing that relegating Tongues as a prayer language as a convenient way to put the matter in a safe space and out of the mainstream? Never really made sense to me and didn't really seem to be that much of a deal. Their main strength is expository preaching which has been a real blessing to me at times. I was really fed by preaching from the Calvary Satellite Network as I was struggling during my last couple years struggling with IFBx and literally "Starving" at the "Model IFB Church" where I was a member. I attended services off and on for a while at a Calvary Chapel right after my divorce.As I've said, our pastor says he practices this "gift" in his private prayer life though I've never heard him reference Roman's 8:26 as his reasoning. In my time with CC, I've always heard this passage expounded as the Holy Spirit attending our prayers when we don't know how to pray. We can, by faith, rely on Him to supply what we ourselves are incapable of. I rely upon this principle daily. No she-rode-a-hondas have ever emerged from my lips. I simply rely on Him to present the desires of my spirit as prayers as only He can.
My wife and I considered going to a church affiliated with these people but never quite felt like we could support their doctrine. Just wasn't our "cuppa!"I have hardly ever heard Calvary Chapel preachers speak of this. CC is of Pentecostal origin (Chuck Smith was a Foursquare Preacher) but quickly distanced themselves from the loony bin side of Charismania so I was guessing that relegating Tongues as a prayer language as a convenient way to put the matter in a safe space and out of the mainstream? Never really made sense to me and didn't really seem to be that much of a deal. Their main strength is expository preaching which has been a real blessing to me at times. I was really fed by preaching from the Calvary Satellite Network as I was struggling during my last couple years struggling with IFBx and literally "Starving" at the "Model IFB Church" where I was a member. I attended services off and on for a while at a Calvary Chapel right after my divorce.
Actually, being a former attendee of the Charismatic Movement in the 80's, that was one of their standard definitions of the use of tongues.I've run across quite a few people lately who claim they have a private prayer language. I never really heard much of this until recently. Does anyone know of this being taught/practiced throughout church history?
Looking up "private prayer language" on the Google Ngram Viewer suggests it wasn't used in print until 1970-80. This doesn't necessarily mean the teaching wasn't present, just that speaking in tongues privately while praying wasn't called by that name.So has anyone heard of this teaching prior to the 20th century?
I think it's a spin off of modern Pentecostalism, which began in 1906 with the Azusa Street Revivals. Tongues' per se was something novel, and according to some accounts, was manifest only after the performance of frenzied manners of worship. Once the movement spread over much of the continent and the novelty wore off, the phenomenon was engaged by its adherents with a more systematic theology in attempts to bring it into the pale of orthodoxy. The verbatim, "private prayer language" was born of that,So has anyone heard of this teaching prior to the 20th century?
Aside from their "quasi-continuationist" stance (if you could even call it that), their doctrine seems pretty much "Baptistic." Most affirm eternal security of the believer although there are some (Like Raoul Reis) who are a little more Arminian and believe you can lose your salvation.My wife and I considered going to a church affiliated with these people but never quite felt like we could support their doctrine. Just wasn't our "cuppa!"
Yes, there is a board of sorts within most CCs. From what I have seen in practice within this area, larger or more well established churches within a region do provide some accountability. Our pastor has a board of two other elders within our congregation and is in close communication with the pastor of the Grangeville church. (70 miles from here) They provide accountability and guidance for each other. There are rather large churches in Tri Cities, Spokane, and Ontario OR who provide oversight and resources for us smaller congregations. I know the Tri Cities pastor was part of our board at one time, I'm not sure if he still is. There was a fellowship started in Moscow a few years ago by a young man who was very much under the guidance of his home church in Ontario. That work has since folded and the young man is now back on staff in Ontario. There was a huge church in Boise but sadly, the one who started that work fell. I'm not sure who oversaw his removal from ministry but he had to have had a board he was answerable to. So, while autonomous, no pastor is an island so to say.Seems like they would have to have some sort of board of administrators and some sort of organization in order to be recognized by the government as a legitimate 501c3 entity. Perhaps brother Caines could enlighten us regarding this?
They are Baptistic in the aspects you mentioned, as well as inbeliever's baptism and congregational autonomy. And they appeal to those wmho seek real confirmation apart from tradition.Aside from their "quasi-continuationist" stance (if you could even call it that), their doctrine seems pretty much "Baptistic." Most affirm eternal security of the believer although there are some (Like Raoul Reis) who are a little more Arminian and believe you can lose your salvation.
Where I strongly disagree is regarding their polity. They hold to a single senior pastor "Moses" model (and I think they even refer to it as such) and if I correctly understand, they do not have an active church membership aside from your continued attendance so I don't even think you could say they are "Congregational" rule. Seems like they would have to have some sort of board of administrators and some sort of organization in order to be recognized by the government as a legitimate 501c3 entity. Perhaps brother Caines could enlighten us regarding this?
But yeah, not my "Cuppa" either although I am happy to regard them as my brothers.
FWIW:But yeah, not my "Cuppa" either although I am happy to regard them as my brothers.
Thanks for the clarification bro! From what you are saying, it seems more like an "Eldership Rule" with everyone aside from the senior pastor hidden in plain sight? My last Church in the "Socal" was an eldership rule where the senior teaching elder just referred to himself as "One of the Elders in the Church" and like Calvary Chapel, there was no "Voting Membership" but your continued attendance implied membership and it was up to you to make yourselves accountable to the leadership of the Church. I really learned a lot from this congregation and am thankful for the time I spent there.Yes, there is a board of sorts within most CCs. From what I have seen in practice within this area, larger or more well established churches within a region do provide some accountability. Our pastor has a board of two other elders within our congregation and is in close communication with the pastor of the Grangeville church. (70 miles from here) They provide accountability and guidance for each other. There are rather large churches in Tri Cities, Spokane, and Ontario OR who provide oversight and resources for us smaller congregations. I know the Tri Cities pastor was part of our board at one time, I'm not sure if he still is. There was a fellowship started in Moscow a few years ago by a young man who was very much under the guidance of his home church in Ontario. That work has since folded and the young man is now back on staff in Ontario. There was a huge church in Boise but sadly, the one who started that work fell. I'm not sure who oversaw his removal from ministry but he had to have had a board he was answerable to. So, while autonomous, no pastor is an island so to say.
Our churches in Lewiston and Grangeville are long established; (as in well before 2000.) Grangeville is pastored by a guy who came from Hesperia CA and our pastor was on staff for several years at Harvest in Riverside CA. To this day, our pastor still refers to Greg Laurie as "my pastor".
I see both strengths and weaknesses in these models as I do with more "mainline" models of leadership.
Shortly before he passed, Chuck Smith established the Calvary Chapel Association to provide continuity for the Calvary Chapel "brand". I've heard nothing of this organization from my pastor. I've heard of divisions and splits within the Association, most notable was the split between Chuck Smith and Mike Kestler of Twin Falls ID over the Calvary Satellite Network shortly before Chuck's passing. Frankly, it's hard to get information from leadership on these matters. The inference from leaders not directly involved seems to be, we need to be busy about the Lord's work and not caught up in personality conflicts.
Wow. There's a name from the past...Have you ever gotten to meet Marji's (Pastor's Wife) husband who is a Calvary Chapel pastor in the Oregon Rogue Valley? Would love to meet them some day!
Just checked out Marji's FB profile and you are a friend. Looks like they are doing well! I'm thinking Mark is either retired now or getting ready to do so? Definitely one of my faves from the old FFF!Wow. There's a name from the past...
No, I didn't. The Rogue Valley is the opposite corner of Oregon from where I was. I know they came out of Jon Courson's church. Margi was quite disillusioned by Jon's leadership style. While he had some sound teaching, I was still a bit leery of him. The way he "cleaned house" with Margi's husband and other staff members kind of confirmed my leeriness of him.
I cannot remember his name but both him and Marji struck me as the real deal. Last I remember of them, they were dealing with their daughter's passing from cancer. I hope and pray they are still serving the Lord wherever they are. Wasn't his name Mark? I think it was. You have caused many memories to come flooding back!
Are they still in SW Oregon? I just checked a bunch of church websites in the area and didn't find any that listed Mark as being pastor or on staff.Just checked out Marji's FB profile and you are a friend. Looks like they are doing well! I'm thinking Mark is either retired now or getting ready to do so? Definitely one of my faves from the old FFF!