Are those who oppose gay marriage but accept divorce simply hypocrites?

[Gringo]

Here’s maybe an example that sorta typifies what I mean. It seems you mix up categories, namely works(“law” to the unsaved understanding ) and grace. God’s grace will inevitably lead to works of righteousness (Eph 2:8-10) and fruit (Gal 5) but not understanding the full scope and impact of grace, and that it is at the heart of all phases of the Christian experience (salvation/regeneration/“born again”, sanctification=growing into practical holiness by grace, glorification=complete absence from the penalty/power/presence of sin) will lead to all sorts of confusing doctrine/theology like those that believe one can lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-6). Or it may lead to the Roman Catholic error of believing some form of our works contributes to our salvation (Titus 3:5-7). Misunderstanding grace might lead a person to depend on their own righteousness to get them to God (the Rich Young Ruler Mk 10:17).

All of that to say that IMNSHO you aren’t alone in what I perceive to be a fundamentally flawed view of the grace of God by people. It is human nature to want to work to please God (think of one of the first stories you learned in the Bible about humankind when Cain tried to please God by offering God the fruit of his labor rather than a faithful offer per God’s requirements), but it is God’s grace that saves, enables us to do good works, and to preserve unto the end.

Does that help answer some of what you asked?

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Here's the link you provided.

Bob,

When Paul was writing to the christians at Ephesus, he told me that one is saved through faith, NOT OF WORKS and as you have pointed out, when he was wrting to the christians at Rome, he mentioned the same thing BUT even though he had said that salvation was not anything THEY could do and was not of works, when he was wrting to the christians at Corinth, he told them that there WERE works that THEY did that would exclude them from the Kingdom of God. We learn that even sissies would be excluded, along with divorced and remarried (for any reason other than sexual unfaithfullness) and a whole host of others. Could you explain the seeming contradiction - works or no works? Is that where repentance comes in - if they had repented they wouldn't commit those things?



. . .


When I was young, and in the church, I was just like so many in that I would not cross others and go against the grain. Orthodox Christianity, if you will. I had all of the commentaries - probably like you do. I had taken Bible courses in college. But now that I have been away for so long, I have a little more courage to admit that . . .

I don't truly understand it. It makes so sense to me. No offense.

First we are told that salvation is nothing that we can do or that we do, do. It's all on Him. Unless, we do this sin. Or that sin. Then, we will not inherit the Kingdom of God. I don't understand that.

We have established that I don't understand grace as opposed to works. Could you please help me to understand the seeming contradiction (and I do see it that way) in what I asked to Bob, above.

Please take a little time and slowly, and with simple language, explain a little more to me why this is not a contradiction. When you have time, of course.

Thanks.

PS . . . in another thread, right now, y'all are talking about "saving faith". I don't think there's any question that the Bible
teaches that faith is a gift. But the real question (to me) is, is that gift given to everyone or just to some. And so, isn't it possible that after all of these years, I don't understand something so simple as grace because as you posted in that thread, the darkness understandeth it not? Isn't it possible that the grace and faith extended to you and others here, was not extended to me - that I am not one of the elect because of what is taught in Romans 1? And that would be why - having grown up in the church and having learned (in my head) all of the things you have, that they have slipped away from me?

 

[ALAYMAN]

.
Here's the link you provided.

Bob,

When Paul was writing to the christians at Ephesus, he told me that one is saved through faith, NOT OF WORKS and as you have pointed out, when he was wrting to the christians at Rome, he mentioned the same thing BUT even though he had said that salvation was not anything THEY could do and was not of works, when he was wrting to the christians at Corinth, he told them that there WERE works that THEY did that would exclude them from the Kingdom of God. We learn that even sissies would be excluded, along with divorced and remarried (for any reason other than sexual unfaithfullness) and a whole host of others. Could you explain the seeming contradiction - works or no works? Is that where repentance comes in - if they had repented they wouldn't commit those things?



. . .


When I was young, and in the church, I was just like so many in that I would not cross others and go against the grain. Orthodox Christianity, if you will. I had all of the commentaries - probably like you do. I had taken Bible courses in college. But now that I have been away for so long, I have a little more courage to admit that . . .

I don't truly understand it. It makes so sense to me. No offense.

First we are told that salvation is nothing that we can do or that we do, do. It's all on Him. Unless, we do this sin. Or that sin. Then, we will not inherit the Kingdom of God. I don't understand that.

We have established that I don't understand grace as opposed to works. Could you please help me to understand the seeming contradiction (and I do see it that way) in what I asked to Bob, above.

Please take a little time and slowly, and with simple language, explain a little more to me why this is not a contradiction. When you have time, of course.

Thanks.

PS . . . in another thread, right now, y'all are talking about "saving faith". I don't think there's any question that the Bible
teaches that faith is a gift. But the real question (to me) is, is that gift given to everyone or just to some. And so, isn't it possible that after all of these years, I don't understand something so simple as grace because as you posted in that thread, the darkness understandeth it not? Isn't it possible that the grace and faith extended to you and others here, was not extended to me - that I am not one of the elect because of what is taught in Romans 1? And that would be why - having grown up in the church and having learned (in my head) all of the things you have, that they have slipped away from me?

I will come back to this in a little bit with more detail, but first, though I think I know which passage you are referring to in Corinthians I wanna make sure that I address the right passage…so, could you give me that chapter and verse please?

 

[Gringo]

I will come back to this in a little bit with more detail, but first, though I think I know which passage you are referring to in Corinthians I wanna make sure that I address the right passage…so, could you give me that chapter and verse please?

.
I Cor 6:9
.

 

[aleshanee]

i am not alayman.... obviously.... but i always saw paul in that section of 1st corinthians as calling out members of the corinthian church for continuing to commit.... (and apparently without shame).... some of the same sins they had supposedly been saved from.. and which were the very same sins that condemned the unsaved people out in the world... he was telling them as saved christians they should not be doing these things... exhorting them to question themselves as to why they continued.... ...but he was not telling them that committing those sins now.. as saved christians.. would condemn them to hell....

i know other people who see that part of 1st corinthians and think they are seeing a bible contradiction... .. but if the entirety of 1st corinthians is taken as a whole.... and not piece mealed out in individual versus - or taken out of context.... then the true message paul was giving to the people in that church can be seen......

the 13th century monk who divided the scriptures into chapter and verse did the church and future christians no favors at all..... . he did make it easier to find specific passages in the bible... but he also enabled a future laziness in christians that would start reading the bible one verse at a time and begin making entire false doctrines out of a few select words.... completely ignoring the paragraphs and chapters that came both before and after those pet verses.... and they have led quite a few unsaved but curious people astray by doing that.... ........

just my opinions of course... and i am not a theologian or bible scholar either one... . but we will wait and see how alayman adresses it...... ..

 

[Gringo]

i am not alayman.... obviously.... but i always saw paul in that section of 1st corinthians as calling out members of the corinthian church for continuing to commit.... (and apparently without shame).... some of the same sins they had supposedly been saved from.. and which were the very same sins that condemned the unsaved people out in the world... he was telling them as saved christians they should not be doing these things... exhorting them to question themselves as to why they continued.... ...but he was not telling them that committing those sins now.. as saved christians.. would condemn them to hell....

i know other people who see that part of 1st corinthians and think they are seeing a bible contradiction... .. but if the entirety of 1st corinthians is taken as a whole.... and not piece mealed out in individual versus - or taken out of context.... then the true message paul was giving to the people in that church can be seen......

the 13th century monk who divided the scriptures into chapter and verse did the church and future christians no favors at all..... . he did make it easier to find specific passages in the bible... but he also enabled a future laziness in christians that would start reading the bible one verse at a time and begin making entire false doctrines out of a few select words.... completely ignoring the paragraphs and chapters that came both before and after those pet verses.... and they have led quite a few unsaved but curious people astray by doing that.... ........

just my opinions of course... and i am not a theologian or bible scholar either one... . but we will wait and see how alayman adresses it...... ..

.
Your input is absolutely welcomed (as is anyone else's). And I appreciate it. What is your opinion of what I asked in the "PS" section?
.

 

[Ekklesian]

The initial act of remarriage is adultery, agreed.

Only if marriage is defined as sex.

 

[aleshanee]

.
Your input is absolutely welcomed (as is anyone else's). And I appreciate it. What is your opinion of what I asked in the "PS" section?
.

you might not like what i would have to say about that.... i already know many others here won;t like it... specifically the calvinists here.... and in fact my answers might even cause some who have paid little to no attention to this thread thus far to come charging in like mad max just so they can refute it and make their favorite pro-calvinist arguments.....

but.... i believe everyone.. ...at some point in their life... has the ability to exercise saving faith.... and i believe God gives us free will to make that decision..... .. however.. most people will refuse to.... i don;t pretend to know all the reasons most people refuse to exercise faith..... ..but i know that for some the reason is they know it will cause their life to change... and they just don;t want it to.... or they might have to give up something and deny themselves things they believe they are entitled to.... they might believe exercising faith will lead to an obligation to obey God rather than themselves....

if i am remembering things right..and correct me if i am wrong... i think years ago you said you once had faith... or at least you believed then that you did.... but you knew you had a same sex attraction and that acting on that would be sin... and you mentioned trying to "pray the gay away" as some call it.... or more accurately you begged God to take that internal desire to sin.. (or temptation)... out of your life.. and when that didn;t happen you lost your faith in God and decided God...as described in scripture and by the church... did not exist..... ..

i mean you no offense by telling you this but to me it came across as if you were trying to making a quid pro quo with God.... saying either make me perfect in my desires and internal drives...(remove the temptations)... or i will stop believing in you.... but it;s not for us to try to make deals with God or quid pro quos... all we can do... all that is expected of us really.. even as christians..... is to obey God... to fear Him and keep His commandments... regardless of what we want to do or are tempted to do inside... ..

there can be a lot of different reasons we end up with the kinds of temptations and desires we do.... i know why i did.... does anyone think it;s possible to be subjected to the kind of continual sexual abuse i had as a child an not end up with abnormal..even sinful.. drives and desires?.... .if i told you even a fraction of things still in my memory ..the things i have nightmares about... and what still goes through my head to this day you would be appalled.... everybody here would - and they have been in the past when i even scratched the surface of things i remember and what disturbs my sleep at night..... there has never been a day in my life i have not prayed for all that to disappear and for even the memories of all that happened to be gone..... ..i have had many prayers answered in many awesome ways... but not others..and not that one... but He did give me the help and ability to deal with those things... through prayer and obedience to Him....

but then God never told us He would remove our memories or temptations ....or to take away our thoughts and inner desires and make us perfect in this life... what He did say was that He would give us the ability to resist them and to live for Him.... the ability to deny ourselves and turn those thoughts desires and temptations over to God to deal with.... we are by nature sinful creatures.... even as christians sin will be in our lives until the day we die.. but as christians God gives us the ability to turn from sin rather than celebrate sin or live for it....

and i want to stop there before i end up writing a novel or a college term paper/essay... one thing to rmember when you read what i write is that even though i have been saved since i was 8 i still suffer from schizophrenia... which was officially medically discoverd when i was 13... so the out of control thunderstorms in my head sometimes come out in my writing.... i am sure many others here can say what i am trying to say much better than i can... so for now i will leave it there... just know i am praying for you and will continue to...

 

[abcaines]

Aleshanee, you are a woman of great wisdom and grace.

 

[aleshanee]

Aleshanee, you are a woman of great wisdom and grace.

thank you.... i appreciate your vote of confidence.... it means a lot to me...

 

[Bob Jones V]

.


PS . . . in another thread, right now, y'all are talking about "saving faith". I don't think there's any question that the Bible
teaches that faith is a gift. But the real question (to me) is, is that gift given to everyone or just to some. And so, isn't it possible that after all of these years, I don't understand something so simple as grace because as you posted in that thread, the darkness understandeth it not? Isn't it possible that the grace and faith extended to you and others here, was not extended to me - that I am not one of the elect because of what is taught in Romans 1? And that would be why - having grown up in the church and having learned (in my head) all of the things you have, that they have slipped away from me?

The Bible does not say whether the gift of faith is only given to some. That is something we conclude by saying that we know some will not believe.
I do not think that we can say, unti the day that you die whether you are one of the elect. The example is the thief on the cross. He was unbelieving until an hour before he died and he is in heaven.

However, we do know that all men and women are commanded to repent and believe. All. So, from our side of the equation, we exercise faith, and we will be help accountable for not believing the gospel that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose from the dead and will return to judge the living and the dead.

 

[ALAYMAN]

When I was young, and in the church, I was just like so many in that I would not cross others and go against the grain. Orthodox Christianity, if you will. I had all of the commentaries - probably like you do. I had taken Bible courses in college. But now that I have been away for so long, I have a little more courage to admit that . . .

I don't truly understand it. It makes so sense to me. No offense.

That’s not offensive at all Gringo. I will readily admit there are doctrines and passages that I still don’t grasp in their vastness. Take the Trinity for example. The complex nature of understanding God exists in the three persons is extremely daunting to fathom. Quick story…

When I first trusted Christ as my Savior I intensely wrestled with the idea of the nature of Jesus. What I specifically mean by that is that I wondered why God would create another (human) being to die in my place. I asked myself (and God indirectly) why He had not merely conceived a plan for man’s/my salvation that told a story of how God loved me/us and that He would forgive me/us the moment I/we believed He truly existed. In other words, why a middle man, God? I came to realize much later after studying and hearing the word that the answer to that question was because God, though a gracious and loving God, is a Holy and just God. As such, He can’t NOT punish sin and wrongdoing. In my infantile original understanding of what I thought God should’ve done in saving me/man, a plan that meant simply allowing man to believe upon Him, I was not even remotely considering the proper notion of the punishment for my/our sins. Christ the eternal Son bore our sins in His body, the just for the unjust, to satisfy God’s justice.

So, I had legitimately believed that God had given me forgiveness in Christ through His sacrifice, but I struggled (failed to understand for a couple months after believing on Christ) with the notion that Christ was a human AND God in the flesh. As I began to realize over the next several months that Christ was NOT created, but was actually INCARNATED (meaning He had always eternally existed with the Father but was given human flesh and came to earth in the form of a man/baby) 2000 years ago I also realized He was not merely God or simply a good man but was actually God AND man (known as the hypostatic Union). This is just one example of what the Bible reveals/teaches which took me awhile to come to grips with, but after much conscientious searching the word I have become persuaded of the truth and sense of these doctrines (among many others). So admitting your lack of understanding isn’t a problem that you should be embarrassed about, but, if your problem is that you WON’T believe (ie, if you REFUSE to believe) what the Bible reveals about the person(s)/nature/essence/existence/works of the God of the Bible then no amount of human instruction will avail you of God’s grace and understanding.

First we are told that salvation is nothing that we can do or that we do, do. It's all on Him. Unless, we do this sin. Or that sin. Then, we will not inherit the Kingdom of God. I don't understand that.

That’s not exactly a right understanding of how the Bible describes salvation. It’s not really a matter of a list of do’s and don’ts in order to get to heaven (that’s “works”). The “do’s and don’ts“ of the Bible exist for two reasons. First, they exist to demonstrate the holiness of God (and the fact that no sinful man can 100% be like Him in that perfect holiness) and secondly they serve instructionally to us to show us, like a schoolmaster would, that we, on our own, objectively lack the ability to be holy like God. So the “do’s and don’ts” serve as a law that condemns us, not a means to justify us, thus driving us to a remedy for our pitiful guilty state of being. That remedy for our guilt was the man Christ Jesus (provided and offered solely by God’s grace, not any merit of works we offer/do). The really good news (“the gospel”) is that by trusting in Christ’s death and perfect work we are given (“imputation”) His perfect righteousness, AND given the Spirit to empower us unto good works (in order to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling “).

PS . . . in another thread, right now, y'all are talking about "saving faith". I don't think there's any question that the Bible
teaches that faith is a gift. But the real question (to me) is, is that gift given to everyone or just to some. And so, isn't it possible that after all of these years, I don't understand something so simple as grace because as you posted in that thread, the darkness understandeth it not? Isn't it possible that the grace and faith extended to you and others here, was not extended to me - that I am not one of the elect because of what is taught in Romans 1? And that would be why - having grown up in the church and having learned (in my head) all of the things you have, that they have slipped away from me?

I have typed a bunch already Gringo, and will give you the long version of my answer to you if you ask me for it, but for now I think aleshanee nailed the essence of what I believe about “election”/predestination. As I told you in the other thread Gringo, I don’t think it’s ever too late for anybody who is still drawing a breath (as aleshanee very appropriately referenced the thief on the cross). And I certainly don’t think it’s coincidence you’re still here these many years later, listening to a bunch of crotchety ol’ fundys, lol.

As always, if this didn’t answer things sufficiently just point to where you’d like clarification and I would love to discuss Him more.

 

[ALAYMAN]

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I Cor 6:9
.

In my meandering I forgot to address this directly, but for brevity sake I will simply point you to this brief article. It sums things up nicely and approximates what I believe about what may be confusing you about how the Bible speaks about sin and separation from God. To put it succinctly, that passage is saying people who perpetually persist in sin aren’t displaying/experiencing a genuine saving faith, and are self-deceived like the polytheistic idolaters of the Corinthian culture they came out of. Thank goodness Paul says “such WERE (past tense) some of you”. As such, he’s saying essentially “keep on following Christ, don’t be like those people you used to be”.

 

[aleshanee]

In my meandering I forgot to address this directly, but for brevity sake I will simply point you to this brief article. It sums things up nicely and approximates what I believe about what may be confusing you about how the Bible speaks about sin and separation from God. To put it succinctly, that passage is saying people who perpetually persist in sin aren’t displaying/experiencing a genuine saving faith, and are self-deceived like the polytheistic idolaters of the Corinthian culture they came out of. Thank goodness Paul says “such WERE (past tense) some of you”. As such, he’s saying essentially “keep on following Christ, don’t be like those people you used to be”.

well said.... i had a feeling you could say it better than i could... and i was right.....

 

[ALAYMAN]

well said.... i had a feeling you could say it better than i could... and i was right.....

FWIW, I agree with abcaines sentiments about your contribution to the conversation.

 

[Gringo]

.
Thank you, to all three of you - Aleshanee, Alayman and Bob for your responses.

These posts are such that I am having to go sentence to sentence many times so as not to miss what you're saying. I'll be dwelling on them for a while.
.

Thanks.