Interesting Historical Thoughts

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epomare2018

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The recent ruckus over Kenny Baldwin and his worship event has gotten me wondering: What if it were Jerry Falwell or Lee Roberson who arose as leaders of the IFB world rather than Jack Hyles? What if the IFB had not adopted King James Onlyism? From what I can gather, KJVO was once a fringe thing confined to the Ruckmanites and only got into gear the way it did because Hyles was influenced by Ruckman.


My reading of history and primary source material tells me John R. Rice and Hyles used to preach and teach out of the Revised Standard Version (the premier mainline Bible of the last century until the NRSV came out in the late 80s). Not only that, but the Trail of Bloodism/We're-not-Protestant (Landmarkism) seen among some today was not held by its early leaders. The Sword of the Lord used to run articles and sermons by ministers of various denominations—not just Baptists (and Independent Baptists at that, even though it was an IFB publication). I once came across a printed sermon from a Lutheran pastor preached at a gathering of the Sword from around 1958 or thereabouts, and the paper also ran stuff from Donald Barnhouse, who was Presbyterian and in the PC(USA) at that! (When it was still the pre-1983 "Northern church" in Presbyterian life). Rice called the Reformation the greatest revival in ages until the Great Awakening, and he acknowledged the Reformers as brethren even if he as a Baptist had his differences with them. He never went through the "they persecuted us!" and "our forefathers!" spell that passes for Baptist history in certain circles today. What if this was so, and what changed so that Hyles was made the de facto leader? Would love to hear your thoughts.



I think one of the ironies in the recent spat over Baldwin is that the West Coast crowd does similar, and some defenders have even called the anti-Baldwinites racist for calling out an (admittedly very carnal) youth and young adult service. I think some of the "legalism" and "cultishness" Independent Baptists often get accused of by the deconstruction and other crowds comes in some sense from Hyles, though I also think (based on my readings) that some of it could have been a reaction or response to changes in a secularizing society (especially with the rise of evolution and feminism, etc.). People don't realize the just like in all other Christian traditions, the IFB has variety. That variety or flavor is based on the individual church in the ultimate, but can be generalized by the particular branch of the IFB you are part of. Different branches of the IFB have their own flavors, just like in Presbyterianism (what I am).
 
TMTR for me, but maybe others will chime in. Regardless, welcome to the forum. An introduction, maybe?
 
Sort of, yes. Thanks for welcoming me in. I am a Presbyterian who is a member of an IFB church here in Florida. As the Creator wills, I shall return to my Presbyterian church soon after relocating for a new job teaching. This is just an interesting historical question I have, especially given the recent Kenny Baldwin fiasco lately. It got me wondering. There are accusations of legalism from one side and compromise from the other. Some of Baldwin's defenders are even throwing out the racism accusation!


What does TMTR mean?
 
epomare2018 said:
Sort of, yes. Thanks for welcoming me in. I am a Presbyterian who is a member of an IFB church here in Florida. As the Creator wills, I shall return to my Presbyterian church soon after relocating for a new job teaching. This is just an interesting historical question I have, especially given the recent Kenny Baldwin fiasco lately. It got me wondering. There are accusations of legalism from one side and compromise from the other. Some of Baldwin's defenders are even throwing out the racism accusation!


What does TMTR mean?
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It means “too much to read.” I did skim over your post but I’m just not familiar with some of the names and whatnot.
 
epomare2018 said:
The recent ruckus over Kenny Baldwin and his worship event has gotten me wondering: What if it were Jerry Falwell or Lee Roberson who arose as leaders of the IFB world rather than Jack Hyles? What if the IFB had not adopted King James Onlyism? From what I can gather, KJVO was once a fringe thing confined to the Ruckmanites and only got into gear the way it did because Hyles was influenced by Ruckman.


My reading of history and primary source material tells me John R. Rice and Hyles used to preach and teach out of the Revised Standard Version (the premier mainline Bible of the last century until the NRSV came out in the late 80s). Not only that, but the Trail of Bloodism/We're-not-Protestant (Landmarkism) seen among some today was not held by its early leaders. The Sword of the Lord used to run articles and sermons by ministers of various denominations—not just Baptists (and Independent Baptists at that, even though it was an IFB publication). I once came across a printed sermon from a Lutheran pastor preached at a gathering of the Sword from around 1958 or thereabouts, and the paper also ran stuff from Donald Barnhouse, who was Presbyterian and in the PC(USA) at that! (When it was still the pre-1983 "Northern church" in Presbyterian life). Rice called the Reformation the greatest revival in ages until the Great Awakening, and he acknowledged the Reformers as brethren even if he as a Baptist had his differences with them. He never went through the "they persecuted us!" and "our forefathers!" spell that passes for Baptist history in certain circles today. What if this was so, and what changed so that Hyles was made the de facto leader? Would love to hear your thoughts.



I think one of the ironies in the recent spat over Baldwin is that the West Coast crowd does similar, and some defenders have even called the anti-Baldwinites racist for calling out an (admittedly very carnal) youth and young adult service. I think some of the "legalism" and "cultishness" Independent Baptists often get accused of by the deconstruction and other crowds comes in some sense from Hyles, though I also think (based on my readings) that some of it could have been a reaction or response to changes in a secularizing society (especially with the rise of evolution and feminism, etc.). People don't realize the just like in all other Christian traditions, the IFB has variety. That variety or flavor is based on the individual church in the ultimate, but can be generalized by the particular branch of the IFB you are part of. Different branches of the IFB have their own flavors, just like in Presbyterianism (what I am).
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Welcome to the forum. Very interesting first post. You asked "What if this was so, and what changed so that Hyles was made the de facto leader?", but it seems by the end of your post you answered your own question, of sorts. There are many different puddles and ponds in Christianity. Hyles was a dynamic orator, with enough charisma to compete within the IFB world. There were other circles in his time but you have not known as much about them because they went more quietly about their business without joining the megachurch movement. Baptists are notoriously factious. Northern Baptists, Southern Baptists, Independent Baptists, Freewill Baptists, Sovereign Grace Baptists, ad nauseum. Given the leadership skills Hyles had it isn't hard to see how people were drawn to him, a and then drawn in further by the wagon-circling and legalistic tendencies that feed the self-righteous egos of those apt to fall into the cult-of-personality trap.
 
ALAYMAN said:
Welcome to the forum. Very interesting first post. You asked "What if this was so, and what changed so that Hyles was made the de facto leader?", but it seems by the end of your post you answered your own question, of sorts. There are many different puddles and ponds in Christianity. Hyles was a dynamic orator, with enough charisma to compete within the IFB world. There were other circles in his time but you have not known as much about them because they went more quietly about their business without joining the megachurch movement. Baptists are notoriously factious. Northern Baptists, Southern Baptists, Independent Baptists, Freewill Baptists, Sovereign Grace Baptists, ad nauseum. Given the leadership skills Hyles had it isn't hard to see how people were drawn to him, a and then drawn in further by the wagon-circling and legalistic tendencies that feed the self-righteous egos of those apt to fall into the cult-of-personality trap.
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It was not my intention to answer my own question. What I'm trying to say is what it would have been like had Hyles not become the de facto leader he had become in our timeline. I know already that the IFB world then and now has differing factions and flavors. That said, I wonder what it would have been like if less doctrinaire persons like Falwell and Roberson took the lead rather than Hyles or even others like Roloff. I do think that some of the stereotypes associated with the IFB movement and the scandals surrounding things like Abuse come in part from the Hyles crowd, but not exclusively so. I'm still open to hearing thoughts.



BTW, if you thought Baptists are factious, you should see Presbyterians like me. Presbyterian history is full of splits, re-splits and reunions going on several times in a row! In the early years of Baptism in America, the first major split that I can think of was the Regular and Separate Baptists in the eighteenth century. Though both were very Calvinistic by modern standards, the Separates leaned more Wesleyan/Arminian in some of their views, and didn't really place emphasis on training their ministers (though Stearns trained his workers in "bush colleges" like many other Separates—Princeton is the one bush college that still exists, being founded by Separate Presbyterians as an offshoot of Yale, I think). That said, learning about the origins of the IFB is interesting. A lot of it I have learnt by reading and through after-church chats with my pastor. He's a Crown graduate (class of 1999)
 
Welcome to the forum!
As to your post, I am somewhat familiar with who Baldwin is, but just don’t understand what the standards are for acceptable music in IFB circles these days.

I think you’ll find most of the regulars here aren’t up to date on the latest in IFB goings on.
At least they don’t regularly post about them here.
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
Welcome to the forum!
As to your post, I am somewhat familiar with who Baldwin is, but just don’t understand what the standards are for acceptable music in IFB circles these days.

I think you’ll find most of the regulars here aren’t up to date on the latest in IFB goings on.
At least they don’t regularly post about them here.
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Thanks for welcoming me! The music standards seem to depend on the faction you're part of and the circles you go around. My church is a Crown church with some West Coast influence. The Independent in Independent Baptist has nothing to do with polity, but with being away from the SBC that the originals split from at the turn of the century. It seems to me that the brouhaha around Baldwin is because Shiflett (and Spencer Smith) are trying to create their own faction of churches just like the others. Don't get me wrong, I like Smith and often watch his videos, but you also need to know he overreacts a lot (IMO). Though Smith is a Crown graduate, he seems to be doing his own thing out of step with the usual Crown stuff.


The IFB may not have a central synod or assembly, as you all well know, but it does have commonalities and differences. Most IFB churches will group around whatever school the pastor went to, and will reflect that influence in some way. That includes views on music. What one side might see as compromise or liberalism another side might not. Sometimes, different IFB factions refuse fellowship with each other due to things like views on separation or church history. The David Cloud churches tend to have the concept of separation as their most distinguishing hallmark, as well as an emphasis on what they see as true repentance, a strong anti-Hyles stance, as well as opposition to anything resembling what they call "Quick Prayerism." The Cloudians don't like the Sextonians because they see the Sextonians as sufficiently separated from people they see as too liberal. Cloud is a graduate of Tennessee Temple, and he criticizes the school as having been too soft on separation from things like the SBC.

In truth, Sextonians are an offshoot or descendant of the old Roberson crowd, with Crown as its main school. First Baptist of Southwest Broward is an example of this. My old youth pastor Derrick Marrs graduated from TTU during its final decade and change of existence in 2006. By that time, TTU had long left the IFB, though on the interesting side, Derrick tells me that when he was on the baseball team, Crown was their rival. The Crown that he knew was definitely stricter in rules than what he had at Tennessee Temple.
 
I missed "the ruckus over Kenny Baldwin and his worship event" but for those who are interested, here is Pastor Stacey Shiflett's comment about this brouhaha: [Click on "see more" to see his full comment]

https://www.facebook.com/100064678273106/posts/1146562137509718

"It is a free country; you can do what you want to and be what you want to. As an Independent Baptist, you can paint your steeple purple with orange polka dots for all I care. But to go to conservative, solid, old-fashion Baptist churches that are trying to hold the line, and pretend to be like them when you CLEARLY are not, that is just wrong and it cannot be allowed to continue unchallenged. To stand on the platforms of churches and challenge their young people to stand in the old paths when your church looks like a nightclub on Friday night is beyond comprehension. It is indefensible. It is heartbreaking."

Kenny Baldwin is pastor of Crossroads Baptist Church, Baileys Crossroads, Virginia. This is a "Sword of the Lord" church - their ad is in the May 21, 2025 issue of the "Sword of the Lord," p. 14.
 
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I already saw some of this. While I don't agree with what Baldwin did, this seems to be in a sense more about personal bickering over preferences from one faction over another. People often don't realize the IFB is a Baptist denomination. You cannot be Independent Baptist and affirm LGBT, for example. The I in IFB has nothing to do with polity because in the strictest definition, all Baptists are independent Baptists, but not all are Independent Baptists. The I refers to what critics called those leaving the SBC in the early years of the movement as a kind of put-down that they later adopted for themselves.
 
epomare2018 said:
Thanks for welcoming me in. I am a Presbyterian who is a member of an IFB church here in Florida.
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WHY???

Florida is IFB-Nut Jub Central - Especially in the Pensacola are where "You know who" used to pastor!

I just got back from being over there and I'm pretty sure I went by more than a few PCA Churches that I'm guessing would be pretty decent. If you were down in the Orlando area, I would think it just about mandatory that you checked St Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, FL! I'd go check it out even being the Baptist that I am! :cool:
 
epomare2018 said:
I already saw some of this. While I don't agree with what Baldwin did, this seems to be in a sense more about personal bickering over preferences from one faction over another. People often don't realize the IFB is a Baptist denomination. You cannot be Independent Baptist and affirm LGBT, for example. The I in IFB has nothing to do with polity because in the strictest definition, all Baptists are independent Baptists, but not all are Independent Baptists. The I refers to what critics called those leaving the SBC in the early years of the movement as a kind of put-down that they later adopted for themselves.
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Not sure you can be a Bible believer and affirm the LGBTQ movement. (forget the IFB moniker)
 
Baptist Renegade said:
WHY???

Florida is IFB-Nut Jub Central - Especially in the Pensacola are where "You know who" used to pastor!

I just got back from being over there and I'm pretty sure I went by more than a few PCA Churches that I'm guessing would be pretty decent. If you were down in the Orlando area, I would think it just about mandatory that you checked St Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, FL! I'd go check it out even being the Baptist that I am! :cool:
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I still have my membership there, as it is my family church. We've worshipped there since 2015, and before that we were at another church that was technically IFB as well (but only tangentially), having left the movement proper around a decade before I was born. Our family's current church is First Baptist of Southwest Broward in Cooper City, where Tom Odom (a Crown graduate) is the lead pastor. Our former church was New Testament Baptist Church of Hialeah (Dade County), though we went to the Broward location in Davie, which's since closed. However, I gradually came to hold Presbyterian views over time in my Christian life (was converted at FBCSWB in 2016 whilst Bob Holmes was preaching), and as such, have long had sympathies toward that side. In grad school at the George Washington University in DC (former Baptist school if you know your history!), I joined the National Presbyterian Church there as an affiliate (non-voting, non-serving) member. The current pastor there is Dr. Ray Hylton, a Jamaican who is also the church's first senior pastor who is (half) black (his dad was a white police officer from a small town in the north of the island called Discovery Bay). National is part of the PCUSA. However, although it is a PCUSA church, it is not in any sense liberal, and many of you would feel very comfortable and at home there—including those of you who still worship at IFB churches! I like to joke that National is a Crown-Pensacola hybrid with West Coat tendencies. I could see them being something of a moderate IFB or even mainstream SBC if they were Baptist. It right now has around over 1,500-2,000 people in membership, and is only growing from there. Check them out sometime! You'll be glad you did.




No, my home church in Florida is not a Ruckmanite congregation if that's what you're asking, though they did have a Ruckmanite faction that split off a few years ago. FBCSWB is quite moderate, and is not in any sense legalistic. Church standards between NPC and FBC are rather similar, though neither church has ever turned people away for looking different, and never will. Staff expectations, yes, but not for members and visitors.
 
Starlifter said:
Not sure you can be a Bible believer and affirm the LGBTQ movement. (forget the IFB moniker)
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I was referring to Baptist government. All Baptists are independent Baptists, but not all Baptists are Independent Baptists. An Independent Baptist church that affirms LGBT would for sure be an outlier, and for all reality, they would have long ceased being IFB by then long ago. You're right that no true church affirms LGBT. Fun fact is that before joining my conservative and fundamental PCUSA church (yes, fundamentalism still exists in the PCUSA!), I worshipped for three weeks at an Alliance of Baptists congregation. It was unlike any Baptist church I had ben to before, more about protesting and politics than the gospel, with rainbows and the other stuff everywhere.
 
illinoisguy said:
I missed "the ruckus over Kenny Baldwin and his worship event" but for those who are interested, here is Pastor Stacey Shiflett's comment about this brouhaha: [Click on "see more" to see his full comment]

https://www.facebook.com/100064678273106/posts/1146562137509718

"It is a free country; you can do what you want to and be what you want to. As an Independent Baptist, you can paint your steeple purple with orange polka dots for all I care. But to go to conservative, solid, old-fashion Baptist churches that are trying to hold the line, and pretend to be like them when you CLEARLY are not, that is just wrong and it cannot be allowed to continue unchallenged. To stand on the platforms of churches and challenge their young people to stand in the old paths when your church looks like a nightclub on Friday night is beyond comprehension. It is indefensible. It is heartbreaking."

Kenny Baldwin is pastor of Crossroads Baptist Church, Baileys Crossroads, Virginia. This is a "Sword of the Lord" church - their ad is in the May 21, 2025 issue of the "Sword of the Lord," p. 14.
Click to expand...
Ah yes, I've been watching this unfold from the sidelines on FB. One side attacking an "independent Baptist". Pastor with a feeling of justification, the other side passionately defending a guy who has a smoke machine and purple lights blasting during the song service.

I've taken a couple thoughts away from all of this:

1. While I don't agree with KB, it's not any of my business. That church is an autonomous church and they have a right to do what they feel led to do, whether I agree or not. I am not a member of that church so I have no say.

2. Using FB. As a platform to air all of this out publicly has done nothing but cause division, and has brought the worst out of people on both sides. You don't like what KB's Church is doing? Call him. Tell him, cancel your scheduled meetings with him if you feel led by the Lord to do so.

Just my .02$, but hey, I'm a nobody 🤷
 
Baptist Renegade said:
I would think it just about mandatory that you checked St Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, FL!
Click to expand...

St. Andrews Chapel has been in the news - their allegedly abusive pastor has been suspended from ministry - sounds like good news, it may now be safe for Presbyterians to attend there.

ministrywatch.com

Burk Parsons Found Guilty by Church Commission, Suspended From Office – MinistryWatch

ministrywatch.com

wng.org

Florida PCA presbytery suspends pastor

WORLD is a news organization producing Biblically sound, daily coverage of global, national, and cultural current events.
wng.org
 
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