Interesting Historical Thoughts

[epomare2018]

Ah yes, I've been watching this unfold from the sidelines on FB. One side attacking an "independent Baptist". Pastor with a feeling of justification, the other side passionately defending a guy who has a smoke machine and purple lights blasting during the song service.

I've taken a couple thoughts away from all of this:

1. While I don't agree with KB, it's not any of my business. That church is an autonomous church and they have a right to do what they feel led to do, whether I agree or not. I am not a member of that church so I have no say.

2. Using FB. As a platform to air all of this out publicly has done nothing but cause division, and has brought the worst out of people on both sides. You don't like what KB's Church is doing? Call him. Tell him, cancel your scheduled meetings with him if you feel led by the Lord to do so.

Just my .02$, but hey, I'm a nobody

What a church does is none of my business. They can do what they feel led to do. Churches don't all worship the same. That said, in the Presbyterian system, if someone were preaching false doctrine or whatever, there si a mechanism to report that to the local presbytery that the pastor is a member of (pastors in the Presbyterian world are members of presbyteries rather than the local church). Pastor Shiflett should have confronted Pastor Baldwin privately if he were so upset by it, not go out on Facebook and rant about it for all to see. I think Shiflett was out of order to do what he did. Then again, he and Spencer Smith (as much as I like Smith—I appreciate his discernment ministry) are known over-reactors. Smith himself can be an edge lord at times.

 

[Ekklesian]

Pastor Shiflett should have confronted Pastor Baldwin privately if he were so upset by it, not go out on Facebook and rant about it for all to see.

Why? The offense was public and paraded about for all to see.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Why? The offense was public and paraded about for all to see.

What exactly was ‘the offense’?

 

[Ekklesian]

What exactly was ‘the offense’?

Oops. Thought I was reading the comments on the 'coming soon' thread. On my phone, and got fat-fingered.

Well, now I'm not so puzzled about the 'autonomy' arguments.

 

[ALAYMAN]

It was not my intention to answer my own question. What I'm trying to say is what it would have been like had Hyles not become the de facto leader he had become in our timeline. I know already that the IFB world then and now has differing factions and flavors. That said, I wonder what it would have been like if less doctrinaire persons like Falwell and Roberson took the lead rather than Hyles or even others like Roloff. I do think that some of the stereotypes associated with the IFB movement and the scandals surrounding things like Abuse come in part from the Hyles crowd, but not exclusively so. I'm still open to hearing thoughts.



BTW, if you thought Baptists are factious, you should see Presbyterians like me. Presbyterian history is full of splits, re-splits and reunions going on several times in a row! In the early years of Baptism in America, the first major split that I can think of was the Regular and Separate Baptists in the eighteenth century. Though both were very Calvinistic by modern standards, the Separates leaned more Wesleyan/Arminian in some of their views, and didn't really place emphasis on training their ministers (though Stearns trained his workers in "bush colleges" like many other Separates—Princeton is the one bush college that still exists, being founded by Separate Presbyterians as an offshoot of Yale, I think). That said, learning about the origins of the IFB is interesting. A lot of it I have learnt by reading and through after-church chats with my pastor. He's a Crown graduate (class of 1999)

My current pastor is a Crown graduate, the previous two I sat under were Hyles graduates. The founding pastor (1967) was a graduate of Arlington Baptist college, founded by J Frank Norris, who some people call the granddaddy of independent Baptist fundamentalism (certainly of the southern variety). At one point in the 80s it was headed by a Ruckmanite, followed by a BBF Springfield man (all before my time).

An interesting personal story about Crown. In my younger days as a burgeoning fundamentalist (circa 2004), I was somewhat of a Hyles advocate. There was a Crown graduate who participated on this forum. He was generally supportive of conservative views on the usual stuff that separates independent Baptist from other folk, like music, worship styles, Bible versions, etc.

But there was a big difference, as he was very cordial and not militantly combative. I noticed the difference when we developed somewhat of a internet friendship, and I eventually met up with him down there in Tennessee near Crown and Temple Baptist.

All of that is fairly innocuous, but the thing that stood out to me was he said something very interesting about the wrong-headedness of the Hyles mindset. He said that Hyles graduates "get the the fruit before the root", meaning they want to clean up the outside with external conformity to rules rather than allow the Holy Spirit to do the work of change in a life. There was something up to that point that I could not put my finger on and I was leaning towards a form of legalism and accepting, or at least more tolerant and defensive of the Hyles way of sanctification. That was during a turning point in my young growth, and that saying "they put fruit before the root", helped crystallize my thinking and thankfully guided my turn away from that version of Christianity.

 

[Bob Jones VI]

Welcome to the forum. Very interesting first post. You asked "What if this was so, and what changed so that Hyles was made the de facto leader?", but it seems by the end of your post you answered your own question, of sorts. There are many different puddles and ponds in Christianity. Hyles was a dynamic orator, with enough charisma to compete within the IFB world. There were other circles in his time but you have not known as much about them because they went more quietly about their business without joining the megachurch movement. Baptists are notoriously factious. Northern Baptists, Southern Baptists, Independent Baptists, Freewill Baptists, Sovereign Grace Baptists, ad nauseum. Given the leadership skills Hyles had it isn't hard to see how people were drawn to him, a and then drawn in further by the wagon-circling and legalistic tendencies that feed the self-righteous egos of those apt to fall into the cult-of-personality trap.

Hyles was never the de facto leader of fundamentlaism. He had a big church, yes, but his influence was limited.

 

[abcaines]

Hyles was never the de facto leader of fundamentlaism. He had a big church, yes, but his influence was limited.

Independent Fundamental Baptist...

Such churches are independent for a very sound reason.

 

[Bob Jones VI]

Independent Fundamental Baptist...

Such churches are independent for a very sound reason.

I was in Independent Baptist Fundamentalism for many years. Hyles was not the biggest guy,, not the leader. Only of the far right wing, KJVO, No Pants on Women, No contemporary music, no beards or mustaches variety. Even that slice of Independent Fundamental Baptists was small.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Hyles was never the de facto leader of fundamentlaism. He had a big church, yes, but his influence was limited.

In what was at that time a much larger movement, Hyles was extremely influential. The movement today is of course a shadow of when it peaked.

 

[Bob Jones VI]

In what was at that time a much larger movement, Hyles was extremely influential. The movement today is of course a shadow of when it peaked.

I know he was once, in the 70's, known as having America's largest Sunday school.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

Hyles was not the biggest guy,, not the leader.

I grew up believing Dr. Bob Jones was the de facto leader of Christian fundamentalism, but I grew up in the South and was completely unaware of Jack Hyles until many years later. I was also unaware of Bill Gothard until years later, but I imagine an argument could be made for him as well. Maybe an argument could be made for Dr. Horton of PCC/Becka books as well. Honestly, don’t think there is one real leader, just regional influencers.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I was in Independent Baptist Fundamentalism for many years. Hyles was not the biggest guy,, not the leader. Only of the far right wing, KJVO, No Pants on Women, No contemporary music, no beards or mustaches variety. Even that slice of Independent Fundamental Baptists was small.

I don't deny the veracity of your claim, but, according to the op, Hyles exceeded and eventually overshadowed some other reasonably significant names of big fish and small ponds (Roberson, Rice, etc). I took his question more in the vein of "why did Hyles surpass these men who were probably more able to keep a semblance of balance in the far right side" of the pond.

 

[epomare2018]

The IFB today has something of a plurality of leaders rather than a single one like in the past. The leaders you see depend on the faction your church is part of. My church is part of the Sexton/Crown faction, today led by Derrick Morlan. That said, we used to have a Ruckmanite party in the church out of one of the SS classes (for older adults—60+), but a big incident caused the Ruckmanites to split away and form their own church in Dania called Bible Baptist Church of Dania. One of my friends from there is a Ruckmanite and became so because of his SS teacher's influence. I think it was better in some ways that Hyles came on the scene rather than Ruckman, because Ruckman was coo-coo crazy on multiple levels with his beliefs on aliens, the KJV, Hamites (yes, really!), and more. Ruckman once said that he would've joined the KKK if they were not opposed to Jews!


There's some interaction between the mainstream factions today, though the Ruckmanites still function in their own created ecosystem. The Cloudians (of all the more mainstream varieties) are probably the strictest, with their emphasis on things like modesty and separation—a favorite of theirs. There is a Cloud church in Margate called Faith that we had one of our young adults come from, and I may visit there myself before I head back to the DC area. I do know that Faith is to the right of us in many ways, though they are not Ruckmanites or Trail of Blooders from what I see. The only Trail of Blood church I know of here in South Florida is in Homestead and is pastored by a missionary we sponsor named Ted Alexander. Alexander and his crew don't really like the Sextonians very much because of their views on non-Baptists. A family I'm friends with from my church in DC (who're racially Israelites) once attended a church that was an interesting Trail of Blood-Ruckman hybrid, and they did not have the best experience there at all. From what I gather based on what the son and husband have told me, the animosity seems to boil down to them being Jewish non-Baptists (they're Presbyterians like me), which didn't sit well with the church's Alexander-style beliefs. That was the only Baptist church they ever visited.

In what was at that time a much larger movement, Hyles was extremely influential. The movement today is of course a shadow of when it peaked

 

[Bob Jones VI]

I don't deny the veracity of your claim, but, according to the op, Hyles exceeded and eventually overshadowed some other reasonably significant names of big fish and small ponds (Roberson, Rice, etc). I took his question more in the vein of "why did Hyles surpass these men who were probably more able to keep a semblance of balance in the far right side" of the pond.

That makes sense. You know, you just don't have that fire breathing anger and arrogance of so many ifb-ers, brother. I perceive that you are a very good pastor

 

[Bob Jones VI]

I grew up believing Dr. Bob Jones was the de facto leader of Christian fundamentalism, but I grew up in the South and was completely unaware of Jack Hyles until many years later. I was also unaware of Bill Gothard until years later, but I imagine an argument could be made for him as well. Maybe an argument could be made for Dr. Horton of PCC/Becka books as well. Honestly, don’t think there is one real leader, just regional influencers.

Right. I was baptized in Kalamazoo MI in 1989 and Bob Jones was seen as the elite school, Hyles as the one where you learned to do personal evangelism and bus ministry but not much more.

 

[AverageJoe]

I was in Independent Baptist Fundamentalism for many years. Hyles was not the biggest guy,, not the leader. Only of the far right wing, KJVO, No Pants on Women, No contemporary music, no beards or mustaches variety. Even that slice of Independent Fundamental Baptists was small.

I think the circle was a LOT bigger than you believe. I was raised IFB, went to IFB colleges, as did you, I believe...in fact, you went to MBBC, didn't you? I preached as an IFB laypreacher for many years. Hyles was pretty hefty in the circles that I had been around...Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Missouri, Arkansas...might have been a regional thing, but, I know there are a LOT of Hylesites here...I had four Hyles pastors here in Tennessee and Georgia alone. Thankfully I was finally able to shake free of that intenible IFB stuff and went SBC...now my wife and I are in a very small Community church that left the UMC churches in December of 2023. It was the hateful Christianity that has turned my wife pretty much against nearly anything Baptist related...Right now, after all of the attacks we've suffered from 'Christians' we just want to recover.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

I think the circle was a LOT bigger than you believe. I was raised IFB, went to IFB colleges, as did you, I believe...in fact, you went to MBBC, didn't you? I preached as an IFB laypreacher for many years. Hyles was pretty hefty in the circles that I had been around...Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Missouri, Arkansas...might have been a regional thing, but, I know there are a LOT of Hylesites here...I had four Hyles pastors here in Tennessee and Georgia alone. Thankfully I was finally able to shake free of that intenible IFB stuff and went SBC...now my wife and I are in a very small Community church that left the UMC churches in December of 2023. It was the hateful Christianity that has turned my wife pretty much against nearly anything Baptist related...Right now, after all of the attacks we've suffered from 'Christians' we just want to recover.

So many on the old FFF crying "Stop broad-brushing all of us together!"

I can truly appreciate their mindset these days although I truly had difficulty distinguishing anyone calling themselves "Independent Baptist" apart from Jack Hyles, Ruckmanism, and the KJV-Only crowd!

I found a really good IFB (BBFI) Church though, shortly after moving back to the Houston area in 2006. We attended there for a while and I even filled the pulpit a couple of times and was on track to become a deacon there. My (now ex) wife was still struggling with some of the "IFB-isms" and this caused us to ultimately leave but looking back, I probably should've exercised some spiritual leadership and stayed there! The current pastor of the Church graduated from the Seminary of which I am still taking classes so in many respects, I guess I have come full-circle! My current church happens to be SBC but I would rather not call myself a "Southern Baptist" based upon what has been going on with the SBC at the national level. These days, I am just an onry old Baptist and I am fine with that! You may refer to me as "Independent" so long as you do not think I have anything to do with the aforementioned nut-jobs!

 

[epomare2018]

So many on the old FFF crying "Stop broad-brushing all of us together!"

I can truly appreciate their mindset these days although I truly had difficulty distinguishing anyone calling themselves "Independent Baptist" apart from Jack Hyles, Ruckmanism, and the KJV-Only crowd!

I found a really good IFB (BBFI) Church though, shortly after moving back to the Houston area in 2006. We attended there for a while and I even filled the pulpit a couple of times and was on track to become a deacon there. My (now ex) wife was still struggling with some of the "IFB-isms" and this caused us to ultimately leave but looking back, I probably should've exercised some spiritual leadership and stayed there! The current pastor of the Church graduated from the Seminary of which I am still taking classes so in many respects, I guess I have come full-circle! My current church happens to be SBC but I would rather not call myself a "Southern Baptist" based upon what has been going on with the SBC at the national level. These days, I am just an onry old Baptist and I am fine with that! You may refer to me as "Independent" so long as you do not think I have anything to do with the aforementioned nut-jobs!

Josh Barzon's recent Twitter/X post on the history of the Independent Baptists and their various factions is good to look at if you want.

 

[Bob Jones VI]

I think the circle was a LOT bigger than you believe. I was raised IFB, went to IFB colleges, as did you, I believe...in fact, you went to MBBC, didn't you? I preached as an IFB laypreacher for many years. Hyles was pretty hefty in the circles that I had been around...Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Missouri, Arkansas...might have been a regional thing, but, I know there are a LOT of Hylesites here...I had four Hyles pastors here in Tennessee and Georgia alone. Thankfully I was finally able to shake free of that intenible IFB stuff and went SBC...now my wife and I are in a very small Community church that left the UMC churches in December of 2023. It was the hateful Christianity that has turned my wife pretty much against nearly anything Baptist related...Right now, after all of the attacks we've suffered from 'Christians' we just want to recover.

Kind of related. I did campus ministry in a fairly well known Independent Fundamental Baptist church out east (BJU stripe), and spent 4 years discipling this group of students. The one girl who was serious about her faith left college, married a guy in Nashville and got a masters at Vanderbilt. Her hubby is musical, so he worked in music ministry in Independent Baptist churches and they got burned sooooooooooooooooooooooo bad that they vowed they would never ever set foot in an IFB church again. They were bitter for years. Attended church, but very weak theology. Now they have found a solid Non denominational church that was Lutheran.

 

[Bob Jones VI]

So many on the old FFF crying "Stop broad-brushing all of us together!"

I can truly appreciate their mindset these days although I truly had difficulty distinguishing anyone calling themselves "Independent Baptist" apart from Jack Hyles, Ruckmanism, and the KJV-Only crowd!

I found a really good IFB (BBFI) Church though, shortly after moving back to the Houston area in 2006. We attended there for a while and I even filled the pulpit a couple of times and was on track to become a deacon there. My (now ex) wife was still struggling with some of the "IFB-isms" and this caused us to ultimately leave but looking back, I probably should've exercised some spiritual leadership and stayed there! The current pastor of the Church graduated from the Seminary of which I am still taking classes so in many respects, I guess I have come full-circle! My current church happens to be SBC but I would rather not call myself a "Southern Baptist" based upon what has been going on with the SBC at the national level. These days, I am just an onry old Baptist and I am fine with that! You may refer to me as "Independent" so long as you do not think I have anything to do with the aforementioned nut-jobs!

You should write a book,