Pastor's salaries/lifestyle.

As you all know, I’m an admirer of the late President Jimmy Carter. I believe I’ve posted this before, but as a former governor and US president, Carter spent his life in the same house he bought as a young man. He bought his clothes from the local Dollar General. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/former-president-jimmy-carter-spent-154519805.html

Carter pretty much comes from the same generation as Warren Buffett and Sam Walton. I still have some grandparents alive who are in their 90s. Many of these people were affected, either directly or indirectly, by the Great Depression. They lived their lives modestly and humbly because the thought that everyone could lose it all was etched in their psyche.
 
Ransom said:
We are not all equal in our attributes. Some are faster and stronger than others, some are more intelligent, some are better-looking, and some are more blessed materially. Being rich isn't a sin. Envy is (Mark 7:22), and so is showing favoritism (Jas. 2:1ff).
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Agreed.

This is actually part of the rationale that I would use to say that making the pastor's salary equivalent to the median of the congregation, while a generally decent approach, should not be chiseled in stone.

Some people have attributes and energies that exceed the norm. So long as their lifestyle is not about gaudy ostentatiousness I think it could be a pitfall to assume just because we see a Pastor in a beamer that he is not fulfilling the biblical description for his calling. And abcaines' statement earlier really resonates with me that there are numerous expectations congregants place upon the pastor, often unreasonable ones, that they are not willing to place upon themselves. Even though as a Christian, those same principles might justifiably be applied to their lives.

All things considered, Pipers advice for the model is admirable and a very prudent path.
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
I’m not a pastor and this thread is about pastoral salaries and lifestyles.
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Yes, it's about Pastor salaries and lifestyles. But the discussion can't be removed from potential inconsistencies in expectations that congregants place upon their pastors.

Keeping in the vein of that idea, as mentioned earlier by me, there's often an undercurrent of keeping the pastor poor. I think the same wrong-headedness that goes into that has some root in the idea of saying the pastor should make the same salary as the average person in the congregation. Put another way, people and finance committees in church have been known to quip "Lord, you keep him humble, and we’ll keep him poor". It could compared to the socialist mindset of mediocrity that we have permeating society today saying that we are all equal. It's true that we are all morally equal, but as Ransom alluded to earlier we are not all equipped and qualified the same with identical attributes.
 
ALAYMAN said:
Yes, it's about Pastor salaries and lifestyles. But the discussion can't be removed from potential inconsistencies in expectations that congregants place upon their pastors.

Keeping in the vein of that idea, as mentioned earlier by me, there's often an undercurrent of keeping the pastor poor. I think the same wrong-headedness that goes into that has some root in the idea of saying the pastor should make the same salary as the average person in the congregation. Put another way, people and finance committees in church have been known to quip "Lord, you keep him humble, and we’ll keep him poor". It could compared to the socialist mindset of mediocrity that we have permeating society today saying that we are all equal. It's true that we are all morally equal, but as Ransom alluded to earlier we are not all equipped and qualified the same with identical attributes.
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Matthew 6:19 - 21:

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

I don’t interpret this to mean that a pastor should live in squalor, but I can’t find any evidence to indicate that a pastor should be driving luxury cars and living in a mansion.

BTW, on a side note, people of true wealth rarely want others to know they have wealth.(I’m not talking about the Kardashians or celebrities.)
 
Ransom said:
Jimmy Carter's net worth was an estimated $10 million.
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Exactly. But he presented himself as a local resident of Plains, Ga, buying clothes from the Dollar General and living in a house that’s valued at around $200K. I’d also point out that Carter is the only president in recent history to not charge fees for public speeches. That $10 million could have probably been doubled by that alone. https://www.seattletimes.com/nation...0the%20White,my%20ambition%20to%20be%20rich.”
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
If Warren Buffett, who is worth an estimated $160 billion, can live in the same modest house that he first purchased in 1958, then I don’t see why the local pastor can’t do the same. And if Sam Walton can drive an old Ford pickup truck around Bentonville, Arkansas, then I fail to see why the pastor needs a Mercedes Benz. https://www.zarownymotorsblog.com/sam-waltons-iconic-1979-ford-f-150-custom/

As @Bruh mentioned, I think the cars and housing should reflect the local socioeconomic conditions of the members. That’s probably a good rule of thumb.
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My man!
 
abcaines said:
Ok... Are you willing to subject yourself to the same rules?
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Maybe, does the pastor work 50 to 60 hours like I do? Maybe some pastors do work as many hours as I do. My experience tells me, they do not.
 
ALAYMAN said:
Was thinking something similar. I challenged my co-worker not to mandate pastoral goose requirements that weren't likewise good for the congregant-gander.


But Huk, rather than applying that rationale, I would simply say that our guiding principles and constraints are to be Scripture driven rather than based on secular/corporate models for ethics?
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Why would it be wrong to pay the pastor the medium income of the church building location?
 
Bruh said:
Maybe, does the pastor work 50 to 60 hours like I do? Maybe some pastors do work as many hours as I do. My experience tells me, they do not.
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What do you suppose a pastor's work week consists of? Break it down for us.
 
Bruh said:
Why would it be wrong to pay the pastor the medium income of the church building location?
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Is the median income of the church building location consistent with the salary of a professional with a comparable level of education and responsibility?

Tying the pastor's income merely to the location seems arbitrary. Why not, instead, the median income of workers in comparable professions--say, other clergy, lawyers, or college instructors? People with similar education and skills.
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
...
I don’t interpret this to mean that a pastor should live in squalor, but I can’t find any evidence to indicate that a pastor should be driving luxury cars and living in a mansion.
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But those don't have to be the only two options, right? There could be a very large range between the median salary of his congregation and "living in a mansion". Forcing a standard of living on him that requires he live similarly to the median congregant's standard of living seems arbitrary and subjective.
 
Bruh said:
Why would it be wrong to pay the pastor the medium income of the church building location?
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If they agree to those terms, I never said it was wrong. Likewise, if they agree, I don't see why a variety of economic factors couldn't allow him to live at a standard above the median.
 
A salary on par with that of those in his congregation seems fair. One should also take into account what he may have sacrificed in order to get a decent Seminary education so he could be adequately equipped for the job at hand? Seminary degrees are not cheap and they require a significant investment of their time. He could've probably gotten an MBA in less time and making two to three times more than the average congregation is willing to pay but instead, he (and likely his family) went without for 3-4 years or so. He probably worked during that time but likely nothing with significant earning potential which would've taken away time from his studies, etc.

Yeah, I guess you could go the "Anti-intellectual, Anti-Educashun" route and hire some "Dumb Hillbilly for Jesus" who has a good heart and knows how to "Hoe the Corn" with some real "Barn Stormer" messages. I do not see such a church getting much beyond the "Store Front" stage so yeah, he will probably need to work a full-time job and likely will not be available when you need him unless your car breaks down and he is working as an auto mechanic or whatever.

In other words, you do get what you pay for! I believe someone who has taken the time to get an MDiv and has proven himself faithful in the ministry ought to be taken care of and you had better not take him for granted! If he lives in a nicer house and drives a better car than you, consider what he might've had to go through in order to get there.
 
Baptist Renegade said:
I believe someone who has taken the time to get an MDiv and has proven himself faithful in the ministry ought to be taken care of and you had better not take him for granted!
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A hypothetical situation: Suppose the church's congregation consists of a majority of retail employees. Paul says, "Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching." "Honor" here means monetary value; in other words, a teaching elder deserves to be well paid. Yet if we arbitrarily apply the "median income" rule, he's worth part time at minimum wage.

The pastor's salary and time commitment is a matter between himself and the congregation; however, if he is paid so little that he needs to find a second job to support himself or his family, then the congregation can reasonably neither demand nor expect a minister who will devote his full time to the church. As you said, you get what you pay for.
 
ALAYMAN said:
But those don't have to be the only two options, right? There could be a very large range between the median salary of his congregation and "living in a mansion". Forcing a standard of living on him that requires he live similarly to the median congregant's standard of living seems arbitrary and subjective.
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Hypothetically, if the median per-person salary of members in a church is $50,000 a year, what salary would you recommend as appropriate for the head pastor?
 
Ransom said:
A hypothetical situation: Suppose the church's congregation consists of a majority of retail employees. Paul says, "Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching." "Honor" here means monetary value; in other words, a teaching elder deserves to be well paid. Yet if we arbitrarily apply the "median income" rule, he's worth part time at minimum wage.

The pastor's salary and time commitment is a matter between himself and the congregation; however, if he is paid so little that he needs to find a second job to support himself or his family, then the congregation can reasonably neither demand nor expect a minister who will devote his full time to the church. As you said, you get what you pay for.
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I would think that such a church would have difficulty calling such pastor but if they did, I am certain such a pastor would have no intention of keeping the church at such a level. I believe good Bible expositors are worth their weight in gold especially of they are pushing back against the "Big Eva" crowd (rocking praise band, laser light show, 'relevant' messages, etc.) and actually teaching their people the Bible. As the church grows, the pastor should be paid accordingly.
 
DrHuk&Duck said:
Hypothetically, if the median per-person salary of members in a church is $50,000 a year, what salary would you recommend as appropriate for the head pastor?
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It depends on what kind of revenue streams are available to the church, and more specifically to the pastor. As has already been noted by the pastoral examples of prolific writers and speakers, they might generate sources of revenue outside of median income of their congregants. In such case, why should they be held to the same standard of living? And again, I'm not saying that they should live in mansions and live like the sultan of Brunei, but there is a potential big difference between what a pastor might generate (or what he earned prior to entering the ministry) and what his congregants can earn. To make him live just like them sounds a lot like socialism to me, lol.
 
ALAYMAN said:
It depends on what kind of revenue streams are available to the church, and more specifically to the pastor. As has already been noted by the pastoral examples of prolific writers and speakers, they might generate sources of revenue outside of median income of their congregants. In such case, why should they be held to the same standard of living? And again, I'm not saying that they should live in mansions and live like the sultan of Brunei, but there is a potential big difference between what a pastor might generate (or what he earned prior to entering the ministry) and what his congregants can earn. To make him live just like them sounds a lot like socialism to me, lol.
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It wasn’t meant as a trick or gotcha question. I’m just looking for a straightforward answer. I’ll repost my question:

“Hypothetically, if the median per-person salary of members in a church is $50,000 a year, what salary would you recommend as appropriate for the head pastor?“
 
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