Be Kind?!?

Haven't been on FARCEbook in nearly five years. Don't miss it one bit.
 
subllibrm said:
The nerve.


Facebook

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can;t see it...... facebook has been blocked on our household network since february 2004 when it was first started up under that name.... ..and if people checked the history of how facebook started - and the government program called lifelog that preceded it.. they would have nothing to do with it too......
 
Found on FB

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Reclaiming the virtue of Spirit-led kindness:

" During the height of COVID, a pastor-friend called and asked if he could come to my house to talk. He had been invited to our state capital to take part in a "listening-session" with the Governor of Michigan. At the end, they requested each pastor take a photo with the Governor, which he then posted on Facebook along with a statement praising the Governor for listening to his concerns.

That's when the shoe dropped. There was an uproar within his congregation and within the church's leadership board. Many were opening calling for his termination. At church services, congregants were calling him a "sell-out" and "traitor." To them, the Governor was the "enemy," and any act of kindness (in word or deed) was considered betrayal. I sat with a brother in Christ who sobbed in my dinning room, acutely aware that the congregation he loved and tried to gently shepherd had completely turned on him (he would ultimately be fired over this incident).

We live in a politicized age. The task of partisan politics is to draw lines, create categories, and enlarge the chasm between groups. Every politician decries identity politics while simultaneously relying on identity politics to secure their base. In the game of politics, anger (not kindness) drives people to open their checkbooks and go to the polling booths. This attitude infects our culture, and sadly it has consumed our churches.

But when we turn to Scripture, we see a different attitude. The apostles, such as Paul and Peter, lived in an age where the Roman authorities were increasingly persecuting Christians. People were being rounded-up, imprisoned, and tortured. Real people were dying. Peter's own congregation had been forced to scatter due to increased persecution. Nevertheless, he reminds them of their Spirit-filled duty to "honor the King" (1 Peter 2:17). That same kingship would later order Peter's execution. Paul praised the emperor of Rome (the one who ordered the persecution of Christians) as being the "servant of God" (Romans 13:4). Imagine that! Paul speaks kindly about the very man behind the torture and killing of his friends! The Kingdom of Jesus is a very different thing, entirely.

How do we know if we've allowed sinful partisan ideologies to control our heart? Maybe one way is to ask yourself if you refuse to acknowledge anything good about the politician you dislike. Are you outraged by everything Trump does? Would you change churches if your pastor was photographed shaking hands with a Democratic governor? Do you neglect praying for and praising God for the politicians you dislike the most? Do words like "fascist" roll off your tongue without restraint? Do you cut off friendships with anyone supporting the politicians you deem villainous?

If so, I understand. It's easy to treat the Bible as a single-dimensional moral textbook. That is, we tend to lean into our prophetic call to rebuke with truth while ignoring the nuances involving gentleness, kindness, and grace (or vice-versa: many lean into kindness while ignoring our call to speak truth). Of course, when we do so the "truth" we speak looks less and less like biblical truth over time.

All of us are influenced by worldly ideologies, including the ideologies of partisan politics. Frankly, I'd appreciate it if you'd lovingly come alongside me and, with Bible open, point out any worldly influences in my own life. But in this situation, the rage of partisan politics is always incompatible with a life lived in submission to the Holy Spirit. Come out from among them, beloved. "
 
subllibrm said:
Found on FB

*****************

Reclaiming the virtue of Spirit-led kindness:

" During the height of COVID, a pastor-friend called and asked if he could come to my house to talk. He had been invited to our state capital to take part in a "listening-session" with the Governor of Michigan. At the end, they requested each pastor take a photo with the Governor, which he then posted on Facebook along with a statement praising the Governor for listening to his concerns.

That's when the shoe dropped. There was an uproar within his congregation and within the church's leadership board. Many were opening calling for his termination. At church services, congregants were calling him a "sell-out" and "traitor." To them, the Governor was the "enemy," and any act of kindness (in word or deed) was considered betrayal. I sat with a brother in Christ who sobbed in my dinning room, acutely aware that the congregation he loved and tried to gently shepherd had completely turned on him (he would ultimately be fired over this incident).

We live in a politicized age. The task of partisan politics is to draw lines, create categories, and enlarge the chasm between groups. Every politician decries identity politics while simultaneously relying on identity politics to secure their base. In the game of politics, anger (not kindness) drives people to open their checkbooks and go to the polling booths. This attitude infects our culture, and sadly it has consumed our churches.

But when we turn to Scripture, we see a different attitude. The apostles, such as Paul and Peter, lived in an age where the Roman authorities were increasingly persecuting Christians. People were being rounded-up, imprisoned, and tortured. Real people were dying. Peter's own congregation had been forced to scatter due to increased persecution. Nevertheless, he reminds them of their Spirit-filled duty to "honor the King" (1 Peter 2:17). That same kingship would later order Peter's execution. Paul praised the emperor of Rome (the one who ordered the persecution of Christians) as being the "servant of God" (Romans 13:4). Imagine that! Paul speaks kindly about the very man behind the torture and killing of his friends! The Kingdom of Jesus is a very different thing, entirely.

How do we know if we've allowed sinful partisan ideologies to control our heart? Maybe one way is to ask yourself if you refuse to acknowledge anything good about the politician you dislike. Are you outraged by everything Trump does? Would you change churches if your pastor was photographed shaking hands with a Democratic governor? Do you neglect praying for and praising God for the politicians you dislike the most? Do words like "fascist" roll off your tongue without restraint? Do you cut off friendships with anyone supporting the politicians you deem villainous?

If so, I understand. It's easy to treat the Bible as a single-dimensional moral textbook. That is, we tend to lean into our prophetic call to rebuke with truth while ignoring the nuances involving gentleness, kindness, and grace (or vice-versa: many lean into kindness while ignoring our call to speak truth). Of course, when we do so the "truth" we speak looks less and less like biblical truth over time.

All of us are influenced by worldly ideologies, including the ideologies of partisan politics. Frankly, I'd appreciate it if you'd lovingly come alongside me and, with Bible open, point out any worldly influences in my own life. But in this situation, the rage of partisan politics is always incompatible with a life lived in submission to the Holy Spirit. Come out from among them, beloved. "
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thanks for posting it out in the open... ..i;m glad i got to read it........ ....but i do have some criticisms... :cautious:..

in general i think he made some very good points... .. but he also undermined those points by broadbrushing both all politicans with the same paint he sees on the worst of them... and then broadbrushes everyone else.. (all of us)... with the same paint he finds himself smeared with..... ...not a good way to go about convincing people to change.. ..

with regards to the opening 2 paragraphs where he discribes the incident that led him to write this composition - we have only his opinions ... (which is second hand since the original story was told to him by his pastor friend).. and nothing but his opinions of why the incident occured.... ...

we don;t really know all the reasons why the congregation fired the pastor ... or if the reason was truly political and nothing else.... ... ......and that .. for all practical purposes ... (according to how i have seen arguments of logic on this forum play out)...... makes the church and the congregation he is trying to shame - strawmen..... and renders his composition little more than a full page virtue signal.........

beyond all that the overall impression i came away with is that this writer is among the growing ranks of christians who have decided christians should take no part at all in politics and that includes not even voting.... .....i know a few people like that personally.... and they claim christians who vote are violating the spirit of romans 13.....like him they also lean heavily on romans 13-4 taken out of context.....
 
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aleshanee said:
thanks for posting it out in the open... ..i;m glad i got to read it........ ....but i do have some criticisms... :cautious:..

in general i think he made some very good points... .. but he also undermined those points by broadbrushing both all politicans with the same paint he sees on the worst of them... and then broadbrushes everyone else.. (all of us)... with the same paint he finds himself smeared with..... ...not a good way to go about convincing people to change.. ..

with regards to the opening 2 paragraphs where he discribes the incident that led him to write this composition - we have only his opinions ... (which is second hand since the original story was told to him by his pastor friend).. and nothing but his opinions of why the incident occured.... ...

we don;t really know all the reasons why the congregation fired the pastor ... or if the reason was truly political and nothing else.... ... ......and that .. for all practical purposes ... (according to how i have seen arguments of logic on this forum play out)...... makes the church and the congregation he is trying to shame - strawmen..... and renders his composition little more than a full page virtue signal.........

beyond all that the overall impression i came away with is that this writer is among the growing ranks of christians who have decided christians should take no part at all in politics and that includes not even voting.... .....i know a few people like that personally.... and they claim christians who vote are violating the spirit of romans 13.....like him they also lean heavily on romans 13-4 taken out of context.....
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Thank you for sharing your impression. I will respectfully disagree with your conclusions.
 
subllibrm said:
Thank you for sharing your impression. I will respectfully disagree with your conclusions.
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I admit after having read your OP, and before aleshanee responded, my first reaction was one of incredulity that a church would abandon their pastor and split all because of a photo with a politician.

If a pastor had cultivated a culture in his church of such extreme political polarization, and I think a pastor usually well knows the pulse of his people on such matters, I highly doubt that he would have taken a photo with a politician who is known to be diametrically opposed to his ideology.
 
ALAYMAN said:
I admit after having read your OP, and before aleshanee responded, my first reaction was one of incredulity that a church would abandon their pastor and split all because of a photo with a politician.

If a pastor had cultivated a culture in his church of such extreme political polarization, and I think a pastor usually well knows the pulse of his people on such matters, I highly doubt that he would have taken a photo with a politician who is known to be diametrically opposed to his ideology.
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i have seen and even been a part of a group of people that left a church over changes in the leadrships ldeology..... but in that case a majority of the congregation had already adopted that new set of beliefs - which those of us who left the church saw as unbibilical and even abominable....... ....whatever the real reason was that this pastor in the storys church members kicked him out over - i can only imagine they must have felt betrayed in a way that could not be reconciled..... ... and it had to be a majority of them to be successfull in having him removed.... .... .....

either way i would have more respect for the writer if i knew he adressed this congregation directly and face to face.. ...and voiced his concerns to them instead of simply posting a facebook piece about it to the general public - most of whom he knows nothing about.. ..... i still say what he did looked more to me like a virtue signal than anything else.....
 
Having lived through the pandemic in Michigan I have no problem believing the crux of the story. My position at the time put me in contact with multiple pastors and church leaders. Over and over I was asked to pray for their people. The heat was rising and the rhetoric was getting uglier. I'm not personally aware of any of those churches that were able to weather the storm without major reshuffling of the membership rolls. Ms. Witmer was one ingredient that made the situation here even worse than in areas.

Having experienced all of that and seen the destruction in church relationships (best friends screaming at each other) I have a deep loathing for what passes as acceptable behavior within the our churches. From my perspective it has become nearly impossible to have a rational conversation without being misconstrued, misunderstood and misinterpreted. Talking points took over for communication ultimately exposing the ugliness lurking under the surface of the children of God.

FWIW my pastor at the time was excoriated simultaneously for doing too much and not enough. Without a doubt, the worst damned if you do damned if you don't situations I have ever witnessed.
 
subllibrm said:
Having lived through the pandemic in Michigan I have no problem believing the crux of the story.
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well there;s your problem..... you live in michigan...., .... j/k... ;):p

subllibrm said:
My position at the time put me in contact with multiple pastors and church leaders. Over and over I was asked to pray for their people. The heat was rising and the rhetoric was getting uglier. I'm not personally aware of any of those churches that were able to weather the storm without major reshuffling of the membership rolls. Ms. Witmer was one ingredient that made the situation here even worse than in areas.

Having experienced all of that and seen the destruction in church relationships (best friends screaming at each other) I have a deep loathing for what passes as acceptable behavior within the our churches. From my perspective it has become nearly impossible to have a rational conversation without being misconstrued, misunderstood and misinterpreted. Talking points took over for communication ultimately exposing the ugliness lurking under the surface of the children of God
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did you speak to any of these people directly that you saw yelling at each other and confront them personally about treating each other with unchristian ugliness?..... i don;t know how that would have gone over in a place like michigan ....but here in hawaii it;s expected to be done long before taking any complaint or report about it to others outside the group... ... especially to people on an internet forum......

i hope you did all that .... but approaching the forum with these issues the way you began doing ...... and especially using language like.... "impossible to have a rational conversation"... in a general sense..... and.... "exposing the ugliness lurking under the surface of the children of God"... also in general..... . it;s almost as if you are saying to us what you wish you had said to them.....:confused:

subllibrm said:
FWIW my pastor at the time was excoriated simultaneously for doing too much and not enough. Without a doubt, the worst damned if you do damned if you don't situations I have ever witnessed.
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that is most disturbing... ... i can;t say i;ve ever seen something like that play out in a church..... .
 
subllibrm said:
During the height of COVID, a pastor-friend called and asked if he could come to my house to talk. He had been invited to our state capital to take part in a "listening-session" with the Governor of Michigan. At the end, they requested each pastor take a photo with the Governor, which he then posted on Facebook along with a statement praising the Governor for listening to his concerns.
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This first paragraph is the head scratcher for me. First, what is a "listening session"? Who was listening to who about what? Also, why was one of the more tyrannical governors of the panicdemic calling pastors to meet with her then post photos on FB praising her for listening to their concerns?

What stinks to me is that this was done during a (manufactured) crisis during an election year. What better way for a governor to pretend to listen to concerns and get some good PR out of the faith community?

This FB missive offers no details on what the governor was supposedly addressing, it offers no context as to what the church was experiencing at the time, which was almost certainly being regulated by the government regarding their gatherings.

So, there isn't enough information for me to feel sorry for this pastor and join in more of your virtue shaming us.
 
abcaines said:
This first paragraph is the head scratcher for me. First, what is a "listening session"? Who was listening to who about what? Also, why was one of the more tyrannical governors of the panicdemic calling pastors to meet with her then post photos on FB praising her for listening to their concerns?

What stinks to me is that this was done during a (manufactured) crisis during an election year. What better way for a governor to pretend to listen to concerns and get some good PR out of the faith community?

This FB missive offers no details on what the governor was supposedly addressing, it offers no context as to what the church was experiencing at the time, which was almost certainly being regulated by the government regarding their gatherings.

So, there isn't enough information for me to feel sorry for this pastor and join in more of your virtue shaming us.
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I don't know why you would feel any shame if you haven't been guilty of anything like what he related.
 
The question that I have is why would anyone be mad at a pastor for accepting an invitation to talk to the highest elected official of his state?
 
subllibrm said:
Found on FB

*****************

Reclaiming the virtue of Spirit-led kindness:

" During the height of COVID, a pastor-friend called and asked if he could come to my house to talk. He had been invited to our state capital to take part in a "listening-session" with the Governor of Michigan. At the end, they requested each pastor take a photo with the Governor, which he then posted on Facebook along with a statement praising the Governor for listening to his concerns.

That's when the shoe dropped. There was an uproar within his congregation and within the church's leadership board. Many were opening calling for his termination. At church services, congregants were calling him a "sell-out" and "traitor." To them, the Governor was the "enemy," and any act of kindness (in word or deed) was considered betrayal. I sat with a brother in Christ who sobbed in my dinning room, acutely aware that the congregation he loved and tried to gently shepherd had completely turned on him (he would ultimately be fired over this incident).

We live in a politicized age...
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Seems more like a myth to me. I wouldn't post a picture of me and Trump on facebook and I voted for him 3 times. I live on the Gulf and no longer call it Gulf of America due to the fact that I have more unbelieving friends than believers.

If this unlikely scenario is true, this pastor does not understand the value and nature of facebook. It's a communication that could really spread his ministry... he politicized it.
 
FSSL said:
Seems more like a myth to me. I wouldn't post a picture of me and Trump on facebook and I voted for him 3 times. I live on the Gulf and no longer call it Gulf of America due to the fact that I have more unbelieving friends than believers.

If this unlikely scenario is true, this pastor does not understand the value and nature of facebook. It's a communication that could really spread his ministry... he politicized it.
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I disagree. The people who were offended politicized it. Or more accurately let their politics rule their behavior. Explain to me how his participation in the event disqualifies from the role of pastor? That's the issue. This is a perfect example of the problem that has infected our thinking in the church. That disagreement at this level carries enough importance to cost a man his ministry. Disputable things I believe is how scripture refers to these things. Turn the story over and tell me that it would be fine for a church to treat a man like that because he had MAGA sympathies.

You might recall my concern regarding the church being up to her neck in politics. In what way is God honored or glorified by His children acting this way?

I do find it interesting that the different responses have a similar thought pattern. First express doubt that it happened at all then say something to the effect that even if it did happen he basically deserved it because he should have known better. The net conclusion is that the people reacted in a perfectly reasonable manner.
 
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