James W. Knox

ALAYMAN said:
Interesting, there haven’t been any vocal KJVo folk around here in quite awhile.

So what’s the twist?
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BTW:
Contrary to the FFF moniker, I am not not so much into fighting over KJVO.
 
JimKnox said:
Ok. Here goes.
I am a very rare bird.
Very rare indeed.
So rare that I was banned on the BaptistBoard many years ago due to their Phariseeism.
I am Midtrib and Millenial Kingdom Exclusionist.
Most MKE are pretrib and premil.
I am midtrib but premil.
So, is that gonna get me banned here too?
HaHa!
Ya'know. I come here for stimulating conversation and not an echo chamber. Did I find the right place?
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Edumacte me... What do you mean by Exclusionist?

We get all kinds here... From the kooky to the downright heretical. I've never seen anyone banned for any position let alone an eschatological one. However, be prepared to defend your position against folks whose mind you'll never change and who will argue for argument's sake. Hope you have thick skin.

Myself, I am a traditional dispy who holds very solid to a premillennialist view. I make it a point to avoid arguing over the subject simply because it isn't a hill to die on.

As you can tell, I attend a Calvary Chapel, been so since 2001. Before that I attended a Baptist church that was MacArthur-esque. After relocating to the PNW, I began seeking a Baptist church that was very strong but almost none were to be found. I was wanting to get back to my IFB roots and found a congregation that was clearly IFB. About that time, I was hanging out with the only single adult ministry in town which was connected to a Calvary Chapel. I checked the out and found them to be closer to my previous IFB affiliation than anything else I had been affiliated with in about a dozen years. It was different but I soon became so accustomed to their expository teaching style, that I knew I found what I was looking for. I relocated to my present congregation in 2002. I don't see myself changing my affiliation with CC anytime soon, even with all of CC's idiosyncrasies.
 
JimKnox said:
Ok. Here goes.
I am a very rare bird.
Very rare indeed.
So rare that I was banned on the BaptistBoard many years ago due to their Phariseeism.
I am Midtrib and Millenial Kingdom Exclusionist.
Most MKE are pretrib and premil.
I am midtrib but premil.
So, is that gonna get me banned here too?
HaHa!
Ya'know. I come here for stimulating conversation and not an echo chamber. Did I find the right place?
Click to expand...
Are you StandingfirminChrist?
 
JimKnox said:
..,
Ya'know. I come here for stimulating conversation and not an echo chamber. Did I find the right place?
Click to expand...
The conversation here is reflective of a diverse background of evangelical and fundamental voices. Most have some kind of direct or distant relationship to fundamentalist thinking (usually IFB) and practice, though there are a few that still participate here that are currently practicing IFB. I am one of them. I was formerly KJVO myself, but would now identify as KJV preferred. Of course, within the KJVO world there is a couple of different strains, from the Ruckman version where the KJV is believed to correct the original languages, to the Byzantine text Family adherents. What type of KJVO would you describe yourself as?
 
abcaines said:
Edumacte me... What do you mean by Exclusionist?

We get all kinds here... From the kooky to the downright heretical. I've never seen anyone banned for any position let alone an eschatological one. However, be prepared to defend your position against folks whose mind you'll never change and who will argue for argument's sake. Hope you have thick skin.

Myself, I am a traditional dispy who holds very solid to a premillennialist view. I make it a point to avoid arguing over the subject simply because it isn't a hill to die on.

As you can tell, I attend a Calvary Chapel, been so since 2001. Before that I attended a Baptist church that was MacArthur-esque. After relocating to the PNW, I began seeking a Baptist church that was very strong but almost none were to be found. I was wanting to get back to my IFB roots and found a congregation that was clearly IFB. About that time, I was hanging out with the only single adult ministry in town which was connected to a Calvary Chapel. I checked the out and found them to be closer to my previous IFB affiliation than anything else I had been affiliated with in about a dozen years. It was different but I soon became so accustomed to their expository teaching style, that I knew I found what I was looking for. I relocated to my present congregation in 2002. I don't see myself changing my affiliation with CC anytime soon, even with all of CC's idiosyncrasies.
Click to expand...
Millenial Kingdom Exclusionist believe unfaithful Christians can be judged unworthy of Kingdom entrance at the JSOC based upon Matt, Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians and other Scriptures.
________
I prefer expository preaching best. J.W. Knox preaches that way. My current pastor uses both topical and expository styles.
__________
My journey on this Pilgrim's Way has been peppered with many interesting encounters. Pentecostal, SDA, Armstrongism, Nazarene and Calvary Chapel, SBC and finally IFB in 1998. My reason for drifting through so many for the first 18 years since salvation was akin to the Bereans of old; and that is how I landed on IFB.
_______
Then I enrolled in Bible Institute and earned my BD degree. That is how I came to believe both Midtrib and MKE. Not that they taught those doctrines but that I was taught that one must "feed himself" on the meat of God's pure words. My own study discovered those things and then I found others who also saw what I was seeing.
 
ALAYMAN said:
The conversation here is reflective of a diverse background of evangelical and fundamental voices. Most have some kind of direct or distant relationship to fundamentalist thinking (usually IFB) and practice, though there are a few that still participate here that are currently practicing IFB. I am one of them. I was formerly KJVO myself, but would now identify as KJV preferred. Of course, within the KJVO world there is a couple of different strains, from the Ruckman version where the KJV is believed to correct the original languages, to the Byzantine text Family adherents. What type of KJVO would you describe yourself as?
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What 'type' of KJVO am I?
I was trained in Bible Institue by a graduate from Ruckman's school. That was in Idaho. A few things Ruckman taught bristles my hackles. His racism was a huge red flag.
I am not as mild as (preferred) but I am not as rabid as the KJV corrects it's underlying Greek texts either. Although, I do think it corrects (some) Greek MSS like LXX, Aleph or B.
I do NOT believe "older is better". Just because something is old it does not automatically mean it is better than something more recent.
And, I am far from an expert so I remain teachable.
 
JimKnox said:
What 'type' of KJVO am I?
I was trained in Bible Institue by a graduate from Ruckman's school. That was in Idaho. A few things Ruckman taught bristles my hackles.
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I am an assistant pastor in an IFB church that I have been in for over 25 years. In that time I have sat under men who were educated at Arlington Baptist, BBF Springfield, Hyles Anderson (2), and Crown College. Before my time as a member, they had a Ruckman educated pastor. Obviously you can imagine there were different points of emphasis on the KJV amongst those men.
JimKnox said:
…And, I am far from an expert so I remain teachable.
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Admirable quality. I look forward to your participation and perspective, especially on the exclusionist eschatology. It has been a couple decades since I have encountered that unique eschatological variation.
 
JimKnox said:
Millenial Kingdom Exclusionist believe unfaithful Christians can be judged unworthy of Kingdom entrance at the JSOC based upon Matt, Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians and other Scriptures.
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So... Saved but not really saved?

Please elaborate on the scriptures you listed (and others) you believe teach this sort of thing.
 
abcaines said:
So... Saved but not really saved?

Please elaborate on the scriptures you listed (and others) you believe teach this sort of thing.
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Ok. Let's start with the very first and most important misunderstanding, i.e. 'salvation'.
Depending on context, the word/concept of salvation carries with it more than one definition. Of course, this is true of many English words. Table, for example, can be a chemical chart, a flat topped hill or a piece of furniture. So, too, does our word 'salvation' carry different meanings. For this discussion, I will show TWO different meanings.
1. Salvation = eternal life. (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.)
2. Salvation = preservation of physical life. (He that endureth unto the end shall be saved)
Unfortunately, this medium is not the greatest way for an in depth and effective study. So I will stick to question and answer as we cover each passage.
We all know that the parables of Christ tell a fictional story that teaches a literal Truth.
In Matthew 25:14-30 Jesus explains who will enter His kingdom and who will be excluded. The context is twofold. It is about believers, and for believers. Notice, He said the man called his OWN servants to care for his goods while HE went to a far country. This pictures Jesus' charge to his disciples at the Mount of Ascension in Acts ch1.
Then vs 19 pictures the Judgement Seat of Christ. ONLY His servants are present. I am not going to exegete every verse. But the conclusion is SOME will hear "well done thou good and faithful servant" while others will be "cast into outer darkness".
Paul confirms this also in 1 Cor 3:8-15 and again in 1 Cor 9:24-27 and Romans 14:10-13.
 
JimKnox said:
Ok. Let's start with the very first and most important misunderstanding, i.e. 'salvation'.
Depending on context, the word/concept of salvation carries with it more than one definition. Of course, this is true of many English words. Table, for example, can be a chemical chart, a flat topped hill or a piece of furniture. So, too, does our word 'salvation' carry different meanings. For this discussion, I will show TWO different meanings.
1. Salvation = eternal life. (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.)
2. Salvation = preservation of physical life. (He that endureth unto the end shall be saved)
Unfortunately, this medium is not the greatest way for an in depth and effective study. So I will stick to question and answer as we cover each passage.
We all know that the parables of Christ tell a fictional story that teaches a literal Truth.
In Matthew 25:14-30 Jesus explains who will enter His kingdom and who will be excluded. The context is twofold. It is about believers, and for believers. Notice, He said the man called his OWN servants to care for his goods while HE went to a far country. This pictures Jesus' charge to his disciples at the Mount of Ascension in Acts ch1.
Then vs 19 pictures the Judgement Seat of Christ. ONLY His servants are present. I am not going to exegete every verse. But the conclusion is SOME will hear "well done thou good and faithful servant" while others will be "cast into outer darkness".
Paul confirms this also in 1 Cor 3:8-15 and again in 1 Cor 9:24-27 and Romans 14:10-13.
Click to expand...

I do not see how you parce that belief out of any of those passages.
Do you believe that there will be low income housing in heaven?
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
I do not see how you parce that belief out of any of those passages.
Do you believe that there will be low income housing in heaven?
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Well that raises another issue.
I do not believe we "go to heaven".
I believe we spend eternity on the New Earth like we were created to be.
See Gen 2 and Rev 21.
Nevertheless, lots of people miss the plain language of Scripture because of their predisposition to be faithful to a system rather than the plains words of Scripture.
Please do not take that as an insult for it is not meant that way; it's just been my experience.
_________
Low income housing? What??
Where do you believe we spend eternity?
 
JimKnox said:
Ok. Let's start with the very first and most important misunderstanding, i.e. 'salvation'.
Depending on context, the word/concept of salvation carries with it more than one definition. Of course, this is true of many English words. Table, for example, can be a chemical chart, a flat topped hill or a piece of furniture. So, too, does our word 'salvation' carry different meanings. For this discussion, I will show TWO different meanings.
1. Salvation = eternal life. (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.)
2. Salvation = preservation of physical life. (He that endureth unto the end shall be saved)
Unfortunately, this medium is not the greatest way for an in depth and effective study. So I will stick to question and answer as we cover each passage.
We all know that the parables of Christ tell a fictional story that teaches a literal Truth.
In Matthew 25:14-30 Jesus explains who will enter His kingdom and who will be excluded. The context is twofold. It is about believers, and for believers. Notice, He said the man called his OWN servants to care for his goods while HE went to a far country. This pictures Jesus' charge to his disciples at the Mount of Ascension in Acts ch1.
Then vs 19 pictures the Judgement Seat of Christ. ONLY His servants are present. I am not going to exegete every verse. But the conclusion is SOME will hear "well done thou good and faithful servant" while others will be "cast into outer darkness".
Paul confirms this also in 1 Cor 3:8-15 and again in 1 Cor 9:24-27 and Romans 14:10-13.
Click to expand...
Are you saying that “cast into outer darkness” means that there are some people who will go through some form of purgatory before they get to experience full-blown salvation rather than it meaning they will be bound to hell? Are you acquainted or influenced in your thinking by the Dallas Theological “free grace” folk?
 
ALAYMAN said:
Are you saying that “cast into outer darkness” means that there are some people who will go through some form of purgatory before they get to experience full-blown salvation rather than it meaning they will be bound to hell? Are you acquainted or influenced in your thinking by the Dallas Theological “free grace” folk?
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I still haven't landed on a solid rock understanding of what the phrase, "outer darkness" actually means. However, the context tells me two things. 1. It is separate from the Kingdom. 2. It is not a happy place.
I am unwilling to call it purgatory, because Catholics have co-opted the phrase and we Baptists have a historical aversion to all things RCC.
Paul says that the unfaithful (whose works are wood, hay, stubble) WILL be saved "yet so as by fire.
Unlike other Exclusionists, I do NOT believe that place is hell. THAT fiery place is reserved for the unrepentant and unbelievers as Jesus explained in Luke 16.
_______
I landed on this doctrine a few years before I even heard of Dallas Theological.
Robert Govette was more influential to me in that regard.
C.H. Spurgeon had high praises for him, BTW.
 
I have heard of some of this "MKE" stuff before from preachers saying that an "unworthy Christian" may find himself excluded from the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb" and thus being "cast into outer darkness" and so forth. Ruckman preached a message where he was trying to be humorous regarding Christians who refused to take their faith seriously being awarded "Silver Crowns" (rather than Golden) and having a large stack of "Travel Brochures" because they will have lots of leisure time due to the fact that they will not have any cities to rule over, and so forth.

I reject all of this quite adamantly. First of all, our salvation is ALL OF GRACE and when we stand before Christ at the judgment, it will be quite evident to all that anything we have actually "done for him" will have been through his enabling power through God working in us, and so forth. What you are describing here seems to be a "Professing Christian" who never actually POSSESSED salvation! I do not believe there is such a thing as a "Carnal Christian" who exhibits no fruit or evidence of salvation whatsoever. If you are IN CHRIST, you WILL bear fruit! The only question is whether it is "Thirty-fold, sixty-fold, or an hundred-fold."

As for me, I formerly held to the radical KJVO position and was part of the "extreme" IFB crowd that included the likes of Jack Hyles and Peter Ruckman. I still use (and even prefer) my King James and I believe I have come around full circle asserting that I am "More Independent, More Fundamental, and More Baptist than ever" with the qualification that I am quite independent of that other so-called "Independent" crowd!

I consider myself more of a historical premillennial but am not 100% dismissive of dispensationalism. I believe that Israel has a future role but reject the "Two People - Separate Destinies" premise of classic dispensationalism.
 
Baptist Renegade said:
What you are describing here seems to be a "Professing Christian" who never actually POSSESSED salvation! I do not believe there is such a thing as a "Carnal Christian" who exhibits no fruit or evidence of salvation whatsoever. If you are IN CHRIST, you WILL bear fruit! The only question is whether it is "Thirty-fold, sixty-fold, or an hundred-fold."
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A person who is genuinely called by God to be justified will be glorified (Rom. 8:28-30). To this end, God gives them the Holy Spirit. Receiving the Spirit makes us children of God and heirs to the Kingdom with Christ (vv. 14-17).

" In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory" (Eph. 1:13-14). Paul uses a specific word for "guarantee" that his readers would not have misunderstood. It is a term of commerce; today we'd call it a deposit or a down payment. It was a promise that the purchaser would follow through with the rest of the payment; in fact he was bound by contract law to do so.

In effect, God has legally committed himself to give his people their inheritance in the Kingdom. To say that he would give his children the Holy Spirit as a down payment on their future glory, and then ultimately exclude them from their promised inheritance, is tantamount to saying God can act in bad faith. Inconceivable. "I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6).

I remember having discussions about Millennial Exclusion several years ago. I don't remember whether it was on the FFF (probably the previous incarnation, if so), the BaptistBoard, or perhaps somewhere else. In any case, what I concluded then (and maintain now) is that it's a side effect of the debate between "free grace" and "Lordship salvation." And that is a niche debate between Dispensationalists. Since I'm not a Dispensationalist, it concerns me not a whit.
 
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JimKnox said:
Well that raises another issue.
I do not believe we "go to heaven".
I believe we spend eternity on the New Earth like we were created to be.
See Gen 2 and Rev 21.
Nevertheless, lots of people miss the plain language of Scripture because of their predisposition to be faithful to a system rather than the plains words of Scripture.
Please do not take that as an insult for it is not meant that way; it's just been my experience.
_________
Low income housing? What??
Where do you believe we spend eternity?
Click to expand...
I took no offense.
I’m aware of the new heaven and the new earth. Was simply asking if you believe there’s a wrong side of the tracks in heaven…or the new earth.
Just trying to understand what you believe.
 
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