Adrian Peterson.....corporal punishment revisited.

[ALAYMAN]

Again, this is a proverb, an observation about life, not an absolute truth.

If you believe it is an absolute truth, then I disagree with the writer's premise and would stand guilty of his accusations.

"Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for another." In contrast, by Jesus' words, I love my children because I would die for them.

Your line of reasoning here seems to be that the Proverbs are wisdom literature, and as such, don't absolutely demand that corporal punishment be used, but the reality is that the things that are said to be generally true in the Proverbs must be a course of behavior that is usual and acceptable.  So while I agree with you that corporal punishment is not always effective (which proves the nature of wisdom literature), and that it may not work for you for a variety of reasons,  your anecdotal experience and preferences don't overthrow the Scriptural advice.

 

[rsc2a]

Again, this is a proverb, an observation about life, not an absolute truth.

If you believe it is an absolute truth, then I disagree with the writer's premise and would stand guilty of his accusations.

"Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for another." In contrast, by Jesus' words, I love my children because I would die for them.

Your line of reasoning here seems to be that the Proverbs are wisdom literature, and as such, don't absolutely demand that corporal punishment be used, but the reality is that the things that are said to be generally true in the Proverbs must be a course of behavior that is usual and acceptable.  So while I agree with you that corporal punishment is not always effective (which proves the nature of wisdom literature), and that it may not work for you for a variety of reasons,  your anecdotal experience and preferences don't overthrow the Scriptural advice.

Do you have a car payment? Student loans? Perhaps you have a mortgage?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Again, this is a proverb, an observation about life, not an absolute truth.

If you believe it is an absolute truth, then I disagree with the writer's premise and would stand guilty of his accusations.

"Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for another." In contrast, by Jesus' words, I love my children because I would die for them.

Your line of reasoning here seems to be that the Proverbs are wisdom literature, and as such, don't absolutely demand that corporal punishment be used, but the reality is that the things that are said to be generally true in the Proverbs must be a course of behavior that is usual and acceptable.  So while I agree with you that corporal punishment is not always effective (which proves the nature of wisdom literature), and that it may not work for you for a variety of reasons,  your anecdotal experience and preferences don't overthrow the Scriptural advice.

Well, when it comes to advice about life in general, I would much rather take those that are recorded of the Son of God over poetry written by a horny, "wise" polygamist whose parental track record was not stellar in the least and who recorded his struggles with life in general. (Sounds a lot like John Steinbeck.)

 

[ALAYMAN]

Do you have a car payment? Student loans? Perhaps you have a mortgage?

I have a short attention span, especially for coyness, so get to the point.

Well, when it comes to advice about life in general, I would much rather take those that are recorded of the Son of God over poetry written by a horny, "wise" polygamist whose parental track record was not stellar in the least and who recorded his struggles with life in general. (Sounds a lot like John Steinbeck.)

Jesus had much more respect for that "horny wise polygamist" and the Old Testament than you do. Regardless of that, you just moved the goalposts of the argument.  You could have saved Green Beret and everybody else by saying from the beginning of the thread that you only considered red letter arguments to be authoritative.

 

[Green Beret]

Again, this is a proverb, an observation about life, not an absolute truth.

If you believe it is an absolute truth, then I disagree with the writer's premise and would stand guilty of his accusations.

"Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for another." In contrast, by Jesus' words, I love my children because I would die for them.

OK, Smellin', I get it. You do not accept the "premise" that Proverbs is included in the following:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

I've always enjoyed (for the most part) your take on things and your candor when you discuss them. Unlike many on here who have turned from what they once believed and become like the very pious gasbags they condemn in their vain rhetoric, you have maintained a balance in your communication.

Please believe that my concern is genuine when I say be very careful and pray for discernment when it comes to this topic. Many have come before who think they have found a better way when it comes to child rearing. I'm saying don't throw out important and clear admonitions in scripture as you are forging your way.

 

[rsc2a]

Do you have a car payment? Student loans? Perhaps you have a mortgage?

I have a short attention span, especially for coyness, so get to the point.

My point is pretty obvious.  Do you want to answer the question?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Again, this is a proverb, an observation about life, not an absolute truth.

If you believe it is an absolute truth, then I disagree with the writer's premise and would stand guilty of his accusations.

"Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for another." In contrast, by Jesus' words, I love my children because I would die for them.

OK, Smellin', I get it. You do not accept the "premise" that Proverbs is included in the following:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

I've always enjoyed (for the most part) your take on things and your candor when you discuss them. Unlike many on here who have turned from what they once believed and become like the very pious gasbags they condemn in their vain rhetoric, you have maintained a balance in your communication.

Please believe that my concern is genuine when I say be very careful and pray for discernment when it comes to this topic. Many have come before who think they have found a better way when it comes to child rearing. I'm saying don't throw out important and clear admonitions in scripture as you are forging your way.

Green Beret, though we may disagree on some issues, I appreciate your kind words.

The "Scripture" that Paul mentions is NOT the same "Scripture" we have in the 66-book canon. Plus, if you  look at the KJV version of that verse, you will notice that the word "is" was put in by the translators and not part of the original text. Translated correctly (without the KJV translators' addition) is "All Scripture given by God, profitable..." Paul is teaching that the part of Scripture that God gave is inspired. When you take into account that the Bible at that time had 3 sections (Law, Prophets, Scriptures - Writings), Paul it backhandedly admitting that only the portions that God gave (literally, God-breathed) were inspired.

 

[Green Beret]

Green Beret, though we may disagree on some issues, I appreciate your kind words.

You're welcome.

The "Scripture" that Paul mentions is NOT the same "Scripture" we have in the 66-book canon. Plus, if you  look at the KJV version of that verse, you will notice that the word "is" was put in by the translators and not part of the original text. Translated correctly (without the KJV translators' addition) is "All Scripture given by God, profitable..." Paul is teaching that the part of Scripture that God gave is inspired. When you take into account that the Bible at that time had 3 sections (Law, Prophets, Scriptures - Writings), Paul it backhandedly admitting that only the portions that God gave (literally, God-breathed) were inspired.

I realize that there are many who look at II Timothy 3:16 that way. I do not. I believe the Holy Spirit, speaking through Paul, was referring to God's word in its entirety even though he (Paul) may not have been aware of it at the time.

As to that particular Greek text, I must warn you I crammed two years of Greek into three when I was in Bible college. So while I am no Greek scholar, I have studied this for many years. Granted, the early, formative years of my learning were heavily influenced by insane Ruckmanism, my journey since then has been much more broad.

That all being said, this verse could be translated either way since there is no copula. However, the more natural way places the "is" before the conjunction right after the subject (Pas graphe estin theopneustos kai). It could be placed after the "kai" and the outcome is "All scripture, given of God, is also profitable".

I realize there are those who wish to make this passage seem that Paul is calling inspiration into question and make the inspiration of scripture subjective and/or open to debate. Then the battle becomes: "what did God ACTUALLY breathe?"

I believe the opposite. I think my belief is grounded in sound logic, grammar and doctrine.

 

[ALAYMAN]

My point is pretty obvious.

The top of your head?

  Do you want to answer the question?

I did answer.  You want to try not to be obtuse now, and get to your point?

 

[rsc2a]

My point is pretty obvious.

The top of your head?

Is everything you say always un-Christlike?

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

  Do you want to answer the question?

I did answer.  You want to try not to be obtuse now, and get to your point?

[/quote]"The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender."

So I'll ask for the third time: Do you have a car payment? Student loans? Perhaps you have a mortgage?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Is everything you say always un-Christlike?

Purge the estrogen, you'll be okay.

So I'll ask for the third time: Do you have a car payment? Student loans? Perhaps you have a mortgage?

Debt?

Car payment with zero interest.  Nope

Student loans.  Nope

Mortgage.  Nope

Strike three, you're out.

Futhermore, your overly simplistic application of that verse, in comparison to the complex nature of corporal punishment, shows why you shouldn't be teaching anybody anything from the Scriptures, lest you wrest it to your own destruction.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

So I'll ask for the third time: Do you have a car payment? Student loans? Perhaps you have a mortgage?

You need to get an education to rack up student loans. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

So I'll ask for the third time: Do you have a car payment? Student loans? Perhaps you have a mortgage?

You need to get an education to rack up student loans.

rsc2a
Is everything you say always un-Christlike?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

That doesn't make corporal punishment wrong. In fact, the Word of God says it is right. What do you say?

Oh, forgot to answer this.

If the Bible mandates that I strike a child, I refuse to obey that mandate.

Nice duck and dodge. The Bible says,

Proverbs 13:24  He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

According to the Bible, do you "hate" your son?

You know you're addressing one who's view of the Bible's inspiration is 'if it's in the Bible and you don't like it you simply declare it to be un-inspired'.
So, your argument falls upon inspirational and theological deaf ears.....

 

[rsc2a]

Is everything you say always un-Christlike?

Purge the estrogen, you'll be okay.

In short, "yes".

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

So I'll ask for the third time: Do you have a car payment? Student loans? Perhaps you have a mortgage?

Debt?

Car payment with zero interest.  Nope

Student loans.  Nope

Mortgage.  Nope

Strike three, you're out.[/quote]

Would you tell someone they are disobeying the commands of God if they got a house payment?

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Futhermore, your overly simplistic application of that verse, in comparison to the complex nature of corporal punishment...[/quote]

"If my preferred understanding requires a simple analysis, that is the correct method. If it requires a complex analysis, that is the correct method. I value my already formed biases over consistency and intellectual integrity."

[quote author=ALAYMAN]...shows why you shouldn't be teaching anybody anything from the Scriptures, lest you wrest it to your own destruction.
[/quote]

I'm good on the teaching, but that's for the concern. You'd find that I teach the whole counsel of God instead of ignoring the verses that I have issue with. In fact, the folks in our group are learning that changing the way you see reality is much more important than trying to follow an arbitrary moral code. For example, sin is a lot less appealing once you understand that the result of sin is losing a little bit of your humanity.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

You know you're addressing one who's view of the Bible's inspiration is 'if it's in the Bible and you don't like it you simply declare it to be un-inspired'.

I can't speak for SC, but I don't think it's always appropriate to take everything you read in the Bible and assume it's a rule/law to follow.  If that was the case, then I wouldn't eat crab, one of my favorite foods.  And lots of people would be in jail for taking their sons out to be stoned to death (as was pointed out earlier). 

Proverbs express truths for the purpose of gaining wisdom.  Wisdom is what gives you the ability to know if, when and how to apply the truth you learned. 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Spanking vs. ABUSE!! (Adrian Peterson Story)

 

[ALAYMAN]

In short, "yes".

In short, don't come to a place called "the fighting fundamental forum" with your thin skin.

Would you tell someone they are disobeying the commands of God if they got a house payment?

It depends on a whole host of factors.  In other words, it is not a simple answer, just like the complexity of corporal punishment is not a simple answer, but with due consideration, not all debt is sinful.

"If my preferred understanding requires a simple analysis, that is the correct method. If it requires a complex analysis, that is the correct method. I value my already formed biases over consistency and intellectual integrity."

Translation: "I'm obtuse, and this is my latest demonstration of it."

 

[ALAYMAN]

I can't speak for SC, but I don't think it's always appropriate to take everything you read in the Bible and assume it's a rule/law to follow.

Can you point to one single person in this thread who has stated that spanking is a rule/law/command to follow? 

Strawmen aren't just for fundys apparently.

 

[rsc2a]

In short, "yes".

In short, don't come to a place called "the fighting fundamental forum" with your thin skin.

My skin is fine, but thanks for the concern. It has more to do with someone who calls themselves a follower of Christ acting like the worst examples from the world. You can disagree and debate vigorously without coming across as an ass.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

Would you tell someone they are disobeying the commands of God if they got a house payment?

It depends on a whole host of factors.  In other words, it is not a simple answer, just like the complexity of corporal punishment is not a simple answer, but with due consideration, not all debt is sinful.[/quote]

Yet some here are explicitly claiming that not spanking is sinful...

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

"If my preferred understanding requires a simple analysis, that is the correct method. If it requires a complex analysis, that is the correct method. I value my already formed biases over consistency and intellectual integrity."

Translation: "I'm obtuse, and this is my latest demonstration of it."[/quote]

I've interacted with you enough times to know that your hermeneutics are driven by your already held biases. Instead of letting Scripture shape your thinking, you warp (or ignore) its meanings based on what views you've already held. As I have told people many, many times, if your own views are often called into question when you consistently engage in reading the Bible, you are reading it wrongly.