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Is what John MacArthur said in this video clip any different than what Alistair Begg said?
Alistair Begg and transgender weddings
- Thread starter Ransom
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Somewhat. MacArthur likens baking a cake for a gay wedding to serving a gay couple dinner in a restaurant--in other words, the baker is simply supplying goods or services. While I happen to disagree, for reasons I've outlined before, if you assume the premise that providing goods or services is morally neutral, the role of a caterer and the role of a wedding guest are still different.
MacArthur also frames the question in terms of freedom of religion and the government compelling forms of expression against one's conscience. Again, I disagree that a wedding cake is a morally neutral form of expression that a Christian baker ought to freely bake. But MacArthur is therefore answering a different question than Begg did, and so there should be no surprise if he comes up with a different answer as well.
And while this YouTube video came out today, I have no idea how old the MacArthur clip is. Maybe it's several years old, and he's thought through his position more thoroughly since. At face value, he's also wrong.
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MacArthur has never worried about alienating the populace by his doctrinal stances, he doesn’t go by the zeitgeist for his positions, so we know that he believes this about the gay cake baker issue legitimately and conscientiously. He reframed it as a religious liberty issue, much like the battle against the state he undertook with the COVID shutdown. I don’t know if that was an intentional sidestep of the question but I agree with the YouTuber that he might be likely to reverse field if asked that question again.
I believe that wedding cakes is purely a matter of conscience. If a Christian baker believes that by baking the cake, he or she is giving sanction and approval to the "union," then they should refuse. If they just see it as providing a "service" and are able to remain neutral, who am I to say?
The fact of the matter is that you have gay activists seeking out such people with a "conscience" rather than finding some ordinary average joe who does not have a conscience either way and would be more than happy to bake them a cake.
The absolute bottom line is that one should not be forced to violate their conscience in order to remain in business!
In such a light, would it be acceptable to skip the wedding and make an appearance at their reception? From this standpoint, I think you could "Wish them all the joy and happiness in the world" and still not give approval to their union right?
Could this possibly be what Alistair Begg was trying to convey all along??? If I were backed into a corner like he is right now, I would see this as my way out and say "Yeah, that is exactly what I meant! Go to their reception, bring a gift, and wish them the best! Of course the "best" you would have in mind would be that they come to Christ in repentance and faith and forsake this ungodly lifestyle!
I think we need to promote the following slogan:
Your rights end where my conscience begins.
I'd still have a problem with that. I cannot, will not acknowledge such a union. A gift, whether it be a physical gift or my presence, is by definition a gift to both.
We are not to grant "God's speed" to preachers of a false gospel. How then are we to do the same by celebrating an illegitimate union?
I'm thinking this would be a matter in which we could disagree though and not cancel each other? Should Alistair Begg be kicked off the airwaves if this were actually his position?
I have plenty of friends who are wrong on this... What's one more?
I've not listened to Alistair Begg for some time. I came across something else, years ago where I disagree with him... I can't remember what it is... But I haven't written any station managers about him yet.
Alistair Begg is a CALVINIST!!! This alone should make the haters bristle!!!I have plenty of friends who are wrong on this... What's one more?
I've not listened to Alistair Begg for some time. I came across something else, years ago where I disagree with him... I can't remember what it is... But I haven't written any station managers about him yet.
I don't think the average person would pick up his soteriological position by just listening to his "Truth for Life" broadcast though. Compared to all his buddies in the "Ligonier" universe, he is fairly mainstream. Not nearly as theologically rich as RC Sproul and not nearly the firebrand as is John MacArthur and others.
There are likely many things in which he and I would disagree but I have not picked apart any of his sordid positions in order to identify and articulate what these may happen to be. I just want to be as fair as possible towards someone who is obviously a brother!
I will listen to him when he comes up on Refnet but he is not one of the preachers I will go out of my way to listen to.
Those I find myself drawn to these days are Steven Lawson, Paul Washer, Voddie Baucham, John MacArthur (of course), and Richard Owen Roberts of whom I have recently discovered (you should check him out as well). I used to be a big fan of John Piper but do not listen to him so much anymore. For whatever reason, I cannot think of any "Free Willy" preachers but I do not listen to these "Calvie" preachers just because they are "calvies" but because they are actually substantive and edifying.
You must remember... I dabbled in Calvinist teaching for about a dozen years. While I don't tow the Calvinist line lock stock and barrel, I do appreciate its teaching when it comes to the sovereignty of God and the fact that I have nothing to take credit for when it comes to my redemption or my perseverance.Alistair Begg is a CALVINIST!!! This alone should make the haters bristle!!!
I used to listen to Hank Hannegraaff. He's the one who got me interested in apologetics. I was dismayed when I discovered he had slid into preterism. I thought how could he? But after reading up on covenant theology, I can see where he would take such a position the same way a dispy can slide into hyper dispensationalism.
In matters of sovereignty vs free will or dispensationalism, I have found CC to strike a pretty fair balance.
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I just saw this clip by Steve Lawson. I think it sums up what most Christians that hold to the sanctity of marriage believe.
The big problem with Hank Hanegraaff is that he decided to become chrismated into the Eastern Orthodox Church. I think that after that, he pretty much dropped off the face of the earth which was bad for him but good for Christianity. He went off the cliff but was not able to take too many others with him.
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We own a shirt embellishment business. Little League uniforms, VBS shirts and the like. I was making some traction with one off custom designs, and had a small but regular customer base. The arguments around the cake baker opened up the question as whether I would be able to decline to design messages that went against my core beliefs. I wasn't only thinking of messaging for LGB things but any messaging/groups that I didn't agree with like Planned Parenthood. What about vulgarities or sexual innuendo, risque images on up to full nudity? This is what is known as the chilling effect.
"The Harm Principle" sports the following quote: "Your liberty to swing your fist ends just where my nose begins.” A proverb often used by the left to club conservatives over the head...
I'd like to borrow from that especially where it comes to the alphabet agenda. "Your rights end where my conscience begins."
Specifically, this would apply to forcing Christians to print materials for or otherwise endorse an event they find objectionable, such as baking a cake for a gay wedding. Now, if you as a believer can do the mental calisthenics and justify providing such services, there's no issue. But the government must not be compelling speech or endorsements which violates one's conscience.
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John MacArthur clarifies his answer about baking a cake for homosexual weddings.
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MacArthur"s clarification confirms that he was framing the question in terms of a retail business providing an off-the-shelf product, rather than a bespoke one. In that context, he was correct. So at worst he is guilty of misunderstanding the question he was asked.
I don't know who this fellow is, but I'm impressed that he publicly said MacArthur"s statement changed his mind about MacArthur. He could have just been another J. D. Hall-style muckraker, but he showed his character.
On the other hand... Phil Johnson. Let's not confuse him with that other guy.
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I'm just curious. I noticed the original IThink Biblically youtube video has been tagged as "This video is private." Does that mean that partcular video has been taken down from youtube for some reason? I was wondering why the reply by John MacArthur wasn't taken down also.
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James Emery White agrees with Begg:
www.churchandculture.org
“Let’s break that down a little—first by addressing whether it is okay to participate in one, and then second, whether it is okay to attend one. I would argue that participation and attendance are distinct from one another.
Participating in a gay wedding means lending support, helping to facilitate it, enabling it to happen. It’s being involved in such a way as to bring it about. Biblically, that isn’t something a Christian can do.
This is why I am in support of the bakers and florists, bed and breakfast operators and caterers, who are being sued for not wanting to engage in activity they deem supportive of a gay wedding.”
P.S. I don’t agree with this…just posting it for the purpose of ‘discussion’.
Should You Attend a Gay Wedding? | Church & Culture
Alistair Begg is a well-known pastor who, until recently, had his program “Truth for Life” broadcast on American Family Radio (AFR). No more. AFR dropped Begg’s daily radio program following Begg’s counsel to Christians about attending LGBTQ+ weddings. In a recent interview for his lat
www.churchandculture.org
“Let’s break that down a little—first by addressing whether it is okay to participate in one, and then second, whether it is okay to attend one. I would argue that participation and attendance are distinct from one another.
Participating in a gay wedding means lending support, helping to facilitate it, enabling it to happen. It’s being involved in such a way as to bring it about. Biblically, that isn’t something a Christian can do.
This is why I am in support of the bakers and florists, bed and breakfast operators and caterers, who are being sued for not wanting to engage in activity they deem supportive of a gay wedding.”
P.S. I don’t agree with this…just posting it for the purpose of ‘discussion’.
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I would ask, What if the grandson became a hindu, was in india, and was marrying a child?
Is it okay to attend and give a gift?
Is it okay to attend and give a gift?