Amos, Prosperity and America

[ddgently]

And, personally, I just prefer not to advertise how my family gives. Something about trumpets.

It is enough that it is the right thing to do. The fact that some people in our personal lives have acknowledged it is just icing.

I think when an attack has personally been levied against you, it's appropriate, especially in an anonymous setting. That said, I don't feel great about it.

 

[rsc2a]

And, personally, I just prefer not to advertise how my family gives. Something about trumpets.

It is enough that it is the right thing to do. The fact that some people in our personal lives have acknowledged it is just icing.

I think when an attack has personally been levied against you, it's appropriate, especially in an anonymous setting. That said, I don't feel great about it.

I agree.  I didn't mean it as a condemnation of you personally,  just saying why I choose not to disclose that information / take the bait.

 

[christundivided]

You again. Well for your information, "the turd" personally gives ongoing financial support to:
(1) a local mission that provides housing and Christian education for the city's homeless;
(2) the Salvation Army;
(3) the fund established by the utility company to pay for electricity and heat in the winter for those who can't afford it;
(4)  World Impact (worldimpact.org) -- probably my favorite one. They do absolutely amazing work;
(5) A Christian sports outreach program in Liberia .  . .

I could keep going, but I think I've made my point.

Talk is cheap. Post your donation slips.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]I don't doubt that...met a few myself, but today, they are the exception (in my experience).
Around here, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a church program designed to 'help the poor'.

Those quote marks are quite telling...
[/quote]

Yes, they are....glad you noticed that. 

 

[ddgently]

You again. Well for your information, "the turd" personally gives ongoing financial support to:
(1) a local mission that provides housing and Christian education for the city's homeless;
(2) the Salvation Army;
(3) the fund established by the utility company to pay for electricity and heat in the winter for those who can't afford it;
(4)  World Impact (worldimpact.org) -- probably my favorite one. They do absolutely amazing work;
(5) A Christian sports outreach program in Liberia .  . .

I could keep going, but I think I've made my point.

Talk is cheap. Post your donation slips.

"Forget you." - Cee Lo Green

I don't owe you any explanation of my giving. You've contributed nothing to this discussion, so why don't you think of something constructive to say and not come back until you do.

 

[rsc2a]

I think it is telling that donation slips are what he needs for proof.  I couldn't provide a single donation slip, largely because I think it would be in terrible taste to ask my neighbours for receipts when I dropped off a bag of groceries. But then, if your charitable giving is limited  to institutions...

 

[subllibrm]

Well, considering how pervasive anti-poor sentiments are in Christian and conservative (and especially conservative Christian) circles, I don't think it's that funny.

I don't know of any Christians (conservative or otherwise) who are anti-poor.  I know of many who are against abuse of welfare, disability and food stamps, but that's not being anti-poor.  That's anti-irresponsibility.

I also know several whose first response isn't 'how can I help'but instead 'what did you do to cause this'.

NO... people like you don't want to know how someone got there......so it might not happen again.... You just enjoy bashing someone who refuses to help someone that willingly lives in the gutter.

It was very nice of you to prove his point for him.

 

[subllibrm]

NO... people like you don't want to know how someone got there......so it might not happen again.... You just enjoy bashing someone who refuses to help someone that willing lives in the gutter.

“Then the King will say to those on his Religious Right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you told me Wal-Mart was hiring, I was thirsty and you made sure I wasn't an alcoholic before you gave me what was left of your bottled water, I was a stranger and you asked to see my papers, I needed clothes and you asked why I hadn't been more responsible with the clothes I had, I was sick and you passed laws to make sure my liberty wasn't taken away by socialized medicine, I was in prison and you made damn sure I stayed there.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Right on!’’

Matthew 25:.34-37 (NCV)*

*New Conservative Version

Now that is funny in a sadly true sort of way. 

 

[rsc2a]

Well, considering how pervasive anti-poor sentiments are in Christian and conservative (and especially conservative Christian) circles, I don't think it's that funny.

I don't know of any Christians (conservative or otherwise) who are anti-poor.  I know of many who are against abuse of welfare, disability and food stamps, but that's not being anti-poor.  That's anti-irresponsibility.

I also know several whose first response isn't 'how can I help'but instead 'what did you do to cause this'.

NO... people like you don't want to know how someone got there......so it might not happen again.... You just enjoy bashing someone who refuses to help someone that willingly lives in the gutter.

It was very nice of you to prove his point for him.

We are supposed to be the hands and feet of Jesus. It is sad that many who claim to be of the faith think the response of Jesus to the desperate is, "Put forth a little effort of your own,  then I will decide whether you are worth saving or not."

What a twisted gospel that is.

 

[Bob H]

For ye have the poor always with you...

Good use abuse of context there.

Agreed.

But why should we pay some widow's mortgage payment when we can get ourselves some pads for our church pews?

.........If I may digress, that's what happens when one marries a deadbeat infidel hubby that doesn't provide for his family at his untimely death. Just blame it on padded pews and potlucks.






...........Carry on.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

For ye have the poor always with you...

Good use abuse of context there.

Agreed.

But why should we pay some widow's mortgage payment when we can get ourselves some pads for our church pews?

.........If I may digress, that's what happens when one marries a deadbeat infidel hubby that doesn't provide for his family at his untimely death. Just blame it on padded pews and potlucks.

...........Carry on.

And so the widow and kids are to blame then. Got it.  :-*

 

[ALAYMAN]

So the temple had padded pews and a kitchen for potlucks. Thanks for the history lesson.

FYI, the presence of God Himself dwelt in the temple at that time. That particular "upkeep" was in essence directly given for Him. Can't say the same thing about the church in America today.

Why stop at the denial of padded pews?  Maybe self-flagellation and other ascetic forms of worship is what you need to salve your conscience.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Well, considering how pervasive anti-poor sentiments are in Christian and conservative (and especially conservative Christian) circles, I don't think it's that funny.

Could you cite some examples of what you mean by "Christian conservatives with anti-poor sentiments"?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

So the temple had padded pews and a kitchen for potlucks. Thanks for the history lesson.

FYI, the presence of God Himself dwelt in the temple at that time. That particular "upkeep" was in essence directly given for Him. Can't say the same thing about the church in America today.

Why stop at the denial of padded pews?  Maybe self-flagellation and other ascetic forms of worship is what you need to salve your conscience.

Who said anything about a form of worship? It is about a form of service. Can one honestly stand before Christ someday and say that it was better for him to donate a pew to his church (maybe even getting a plaque on the side of it as a tribute) instead of helping the single mom sitting on that pew who doesn't have a job and is trying to feed her kids?

Jesus: "For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me."

Christian: "But I donated that money instead of giving it so we could sit through the service more comfortably."

Jesus: "Why didn't you say so? It is better to get into heaven with a soft tush than it is to help the needy and still get to see the Father. Best of both worlds!"

 

[ALAYMAN]

Who said anything about a form of worship? It is about a form of service. Can one honestly stand before Christ someday and say that it was better for him to donate a pew to his church (maybe even getting a plaque on the side of it as a tribute) instead of helping the single mom sitting on that pew who doesn't have a job and is trying to feed her kids?

Why be coy?  You don't think that when people gather corporately in "padded pews" that it is a form of worship?  That's either coy or obtuse.  More to the point, you've again proposed another false dichotomy.  There's no antithesis between giving to the church maintenance AND doing other charitable giving (secretly or publicly).

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Why be coy?  You don't think that when people gather corporately in "padded pews" that it is a form of worship? That's either coy or obtuse.

Anything can become a form of worship. But how does the padding of the pew make worship "better" than helping meet the medical bills of the child who sits in that pew, his body housing leukemia?

More to the point, you've again proposed another false dichotomy.  There's no antithesis between giving to the church maintenance AND doing other charitable giving (secretly or publicly).

Giving itself is an act of charity. In essence, if I choose to donate to the Republican or Democratic National Conventions, that is charity but does that really mean God ordained it or it is an acto of worship toward God?

Would James define our luxurious worship styles as being true worship?

Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Perhaps true worship is performed outside the walls of a church.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Why be coy?  You don't think that when people gather corporately in "padded pews" that it is a form of worship? That's either coy or obtuse.

Anything can become a form of worship. But how does the padding of the pew make worship "better" than helping meet the medical bills of the child who sits in that pew, his body housing leukemia?

More to the point, you've again proposed another false dichotomy.  There's no antithesis between giving to the church maintenance AND doing other charitable giving (secretly or publicly).

Giving itself is an act of charity. In essence, if I choose to donate to the Republican or Democratic National Conventions, that is charity but does that really mean God ordained it or it is an acto of worship toward God?

Would James define our luxurious worship styles as being true worship?

Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Perhaps true worship is performed outside the walls of a church.

Since you used the word "ordained" (apparently in some interpretive sense analogous to our reformed brethren's understanding of the regulative principle), do you have a verse where Jesus "ordained" that when people gather to worship him they don't do so via any form of comfort or padded pew?  The reductio ad absurdum logic is not meant condescendingly towards you, but rather to point out that you appear to be using your own subjective judgment to impose your moral value(s) for worship on others.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Why be coy?  You don't think that when people gather corporately in "padded pews" that it is a form of worship? That's either coy or obtuse.

Anything can become a form of worship. But how does the padding of the pew make worship "better" than helping meet the medical bills of the child who sits in that pew, his body housing leukemia?

More to the point, you've again proposed another false dichotomy.  There's no antithesis between giving to the church maintenance AND doing other charitable giving (secretly or publicly).

Giving itself is an act of charity. In essence, if I choose to donate to the Republican or Democratic National Conventions, that is charity but does that really mean God ordained it or it is an acto of worship toward God?

Would James define our luxurious worship styles as being true worship?

Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Perhaps true worship is performed outside the walls of a church.

Since you used the word "ordained" (apparently in some interpretive sense analogous to our reformed brethren's understanding of the regulative principle),

For clarification purposes, what I mean by ordained is set into practice.

do you have a verse where Jesus "ordained" that when people gather to worship him they don't do so via any form of comfort or padded pew?

No, nor do I have a verse where Jesus "ordained" that people not gather to worship him via a rock band, stage lighting, alcoholic beverages and rhythmic dancers either.


The reduction ad absurdum logic is not meant condescendingly towards you, but rather to point out that you appear to be using your own subjective judgment to impose your moral value(s) for worship on others.

I appreciate that honest evaluation. However, I have no authority by which I should impose my own opinions on anyone else. If your pastor wants to come to the pulpit each week via a zipline from the balcony, go for it. The point I am trying to make is that God did not originate the chuch practice as the American church practices worship. It is much deeper than being entertained by an energetic speaker, rock out with "godly" tunes, chant in a humming tone, speak in some gobbledygook, be enriched by a robed choir, etc. The church should be about people and meeting their needs, spiritually, materially, emotionally, socially and physically in a community setting, and in that setting, seek to meet the needs outside the assembly the same way.

Would the first church in Jerusalem have padded pews when there were those among them in need?

And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people.

In essence, I am pointing out that worship in today's American culture (in general) is NOT the worship that Jesus had in mind nor does this culture replicate the NT church. The cultural practices of American Christian worship are rooted in paganism so it is no wonder we (myself included) don't properly follow the teachings of Jesus. Too much religious tradition, IMHO.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Since you used the word "ordained" (apparently in some interpretive sense analogous to our reformed brethren's understanding of the regulative principle), do you have a verse where Jesus "ordained" that when people gather to worship him they don't do so via any form of comfort or padded pew?  The reductio ad absurdum logic is not meant condescendingly towards you, but rather to point out that you appear to be using your own subjective judgment to impose your moral value(s) for worship on others.[/quote]

Are you really arguing that it would be more reflective of our Savior to make sure the church could afford the extra soft, plush cushioning in blood red for their pews than it would be to feed a family that is unable to provide for themselves?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Since you used the word "ordained" (apparently in some interpretive sense analogous to our reformed brethren's understanding of the regulative principle), do you have a verse where Jesus "ordained" that when people gather to worship him they don't do so via any form of comfort or padded pew?  The reductio ad absurdum logic is not meant condescendingly towards you, but rather to point out that you appear to be using your own subjective judgment to impose your moral value(s) for worship on others.

Are you really arguing that it would be more reflective of our Savior to make sure the church could afford the extra soft, plush cushioning in blood red for their pews than it would be to feed a family that is unable to provide for themselves?
[/quote]

That is how I perceived what he was saying. I hope I am wrong...