Amos, Prosperity and America

[subllibrm]

The problem as I see it is the "us against them" mindset that has taken such deep root in our society. No one understands nuance or considers circumstance.

How that relates to the OP is summed up in statements like "I don't mind helping those who are willing to help themselves but there is no way that I am giving a dime to some deadbeat". How delightfully convenient to have the excuse in hand before the need is communicated. And how quickly the determination of deadbeatism follows.

Most of our churches have some sort of youth program. Do any have mentoring programs to help the parents of those "bus kids" from the projects (or trailer parks or down in the holler)? Sometimes it isn't that the parents don't "want to" it is that they don't know how. Worse, they don't think that they can. Neither of the approaches common to the american church help much. All stick (you get yourself cleaned up and we will help) or all carrot (who are we to judge, we just keep giving cause Jesus told us to) both fail. Repeatedly.

Help them with expectations (note I am not saying conditions) that they can and will succeed. Build relationships that give rise to teaching and training. This should look a lot like how a parent develops good habits in their child. Mentoring, life coaching, discipling; call it what you will but there needs to be an investment beyond money or things.

Yes, I know that I am rambling. 

 

[ddgently]

Quite wise rambling, though.

 

[ALAYMAN]

The problem as I see it is the "us against them" mindset that has taken such deep root in our society. No one understands nuance or considers circumstance.

How that relates to the OP is summed up in statements like "I don't mind helping those who are willing to help themselves but there is no way that I am giving a dime to some deadbeat". How delightfully convenient to have the excuse in hand before the need is communicated. And how quickly the determination of deadbeatism follows.

Most of our churches have some sort of youth program. Do any have mentoring programs to help the parents of those "bus kids" from the projects (or trailer parks or down in the holler)? Sometimes it isn't that the parents don't "want to" it is that they don't know how. Worse, they don't think that they can. Neither of the approaches common to the american church help much. All stick (you get yourself cleaned up and we will help) or all carrot (who are we to judge, we just keep giving cause Jesus told us to) both fail. Repeatedly.

Help them with expectations (note I am not saying conditions) that they can and will succeed. Build relationships that give rise to teaching and training. This should look a lot like how a parent develops good habits in their child. Mentoring, life coaching, discipling; call it what you will but there needs to be an investment beyond money or things.

Yes, I know that I am rambling. 

The CNN article is, as you said, a hack job.  Calling Ramsey's advice and ministry a form of "prosperity gospel" is careless, or ignorant.  And while I agree with you that often times there are plenty of people with a ready made excuse to not help the poor (particularly financially), it is those same people who aren't helping the church either, simply because they'd rather just keep their money in their pocket.  And while I also agree with you that many poor need some help up, not merely a handout, it has been my overwhelming experience that the entitlement mentality that is so pervasive in our society today is also prevalent amongst those looking for help from the church.  And when discipleship is offered in order to assist folk out of the hole, they don't want to do what it takes to dig out.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Most of it is implicit (although some is explicit) as seen here:

http://www.daveramsey.com/blog/20-things-the-rich-do-every-day

The implicit message being if the poor would just get it together, they wouldn't be poor anymore. This is not to excuse every individual's personal obligation to live as responsibly as possible. But poverty is a multi-faceted issue, and it's certainly more complex than "make better choices and you'll stop being poor."

This is a good response to the Ramsey article, which explains the problems better than I can:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/11/30/what-dave-ramsey-gets-wrong-about-poverty/

In that link, did you read Ramsey's response to the allegation you seem to purport, where he defended himself from the false allegation that he was "anti-poor"?

I have read his response. I think the CNN piece deals with it quite well, and undercuts some of his assumptions/conclusions.

CNN?!
After stufffundieslike, they're my favorite agenda driven propagandists.

 

[Biker]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Since you used the word "ordained" (apparently in some interpretive sense analogous to our reformed brethren's understanding of the regulative principle), do you have a verse where Jesus "ordained" that when people gather to worship him they don't do so via any form of comfort or padded pew?  The reductio ad absurdum logic is not meant condescendingly towards you, but rather to point out that you appear to be using your own subjective judgment to impose your moral value(s) for worship on others.

Are you really arguing that it would be more reflective of our Savior to make sure the church could afford the extra soft, plush cushioning in blood red for their pews than it would be to feed a family that is unable to provide for themselves?

Only those with reading comprehension could come away with that conclusion when I've specifically stated that a false dichotomy has been presented.  Both the feeding and the maintenance can be done.  But let's take you and SC logic to its necessary conclusion.  If any form of spending for "extravagant" things such as padded pews is verboten so long as there's suffering in the world, why do you have a church building at all?  As SC is arguing essentially, take the money for such unnecessary buildings and give it to the poor.  Of course we need not stop there.  Why do you have a home?  Shouldn't you live in the most bare essentials that will allow you to survive, say, oh, a tent or lean-to?

FYI, there are things at the church I currently attend with which I strongly disagree. However, there is one main point with which I do: they meet weekly in a YMCA because it is cheaper to rent the gym once per week than it is to maintain a campus. They choose to take 50% of the tithes and give it away to support charitable organizations and people, both secular and Christian. Expenses still exist but are minimal.

Nothing wrong with being rich. I have a friend who bought a home with 4 floors and 7 bedrooms (he has 3 kids). Top floor is for housing people in the church who are in need (currently a single mom who got laid off lives there rent free) and he opens his pantry to this lady's family. He donates his basement to regular youth meetings where kids get to meet in Christian community. He said God called him to buy the big house and use it for the helping of others and he does just that.
[/quote] Your church sounds very biblically grounded regarding finances. How refreshing...good job. 

 

[ddgently]

Most of it is implicit (although some is explicit) as seen here:

http://www.daveramsey.com/blog/20-things-the-rich-do-every-day

The implicit message being if the poor would just get it together, they wouldn't be poor anymore. This is not to excuse every individual's personal obligation to live as responsibly as possible. But poverty is a multi-faceted issue, and it's certainly more complex than "make better choices and you'll stop being poor."

This is a good response to the Ramsey article, which explains the problems better than I can:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/11/30/what-dave-ramsey-gets-wrong-about-poverty/

In that link, did you read Ramsey's response to the allegation you seem to purport, where he defended himself from the false allegation that he was "anti-poor"?

I have read his response. I think the CNN piece deals with it quite well, and undercuts some of his assumptions/conclusions.

CNN?!
After stufffundieslike, they're my favorite agenda driven propagandists.

It was a guest column by Rachel Held Evans, who is an evangelical blogger.

 

[christundivided]

The problem as I see it is the "us against them" mindset that has taken such deep root in our society. No one understands nuance or considers circumstance.

How that relates to the OP is summed up in statements like "I don't mind helping those who are willing to help themselves but there is no way that I am giving a dime to some deadbeat". How delightfully convenient to have the excuse in hand before the need is communicated. And how quickly the determination of deadbeatism follows.

Most of our churches have some sort of youth program. Do any have mentoring programs to help the parents of those "bus kids" from the projects (or trailer parks or down in the holler)? Sometimes it isn't that the parents don't "want to" it is that they don't know how. Worse, they don't think that they can. Neither of the approaches common to the american church help much. All stick (you get yourself cleaned up and we will help) or all carrot (who are we to judge, we just keep giving cause Jesus told us to) both fail. Repeatedly.

Help them with expectations (note I am not saying conditions) that they can and will succeed. Build relationships that give rise to teaching and training. This should look a lot like how a parent develops good habits in their child. Mentoring, life coaching, discipling; call it what you will but there needs to be an investment beyond money or things.

Yes, I know that I am rambling. 

Isn't to so refreshing to see a liberal questioning what someone gives!!!! Its not like almost every word that comes out their mouths is "don't judge" anything. In the end..... they aren't really trying to remove judgement and promote acceptance. They just want you to be like them.

Sorry silly..... I'll give my money to whomever I want... when I want to give it.... and ever how I want to give. That is why its called a "gift". You don't get to question my "gift". You really need to look up the word "gift" sometime. You're expecting "payment" to the poor. A "gift" doesn't work that way numb nut.

 

[subllibrm]

The problem as I see it is the "us against them" mindset that has taken such deep root in our society. No one understands nuance or considers circumstance.

How that relates to the OP is summed up in statements like "I don't mind helping those who are willing to help themselves but there is no way that I am giving a dime to some deadbeat". How delightfully convenient to have the excuse in hand before the need is communicated. And how quickly the determination of deadbeatism follows.

Most of our churches have some sort of youth program. Do any have mentoring programs to help the parents of those "bus kids" from the projects (or trailer parks or down in the holler)? Sometimes it isn't that the parents don't "want to" it is that they don't know how. Worse, they don't think that they can. Neither of the approaches common to the american church help much. All stick (you get yourself cleaned up and we will help) or all carrot (who are we to judge, we just keep giving cause Jesus told us to) both fail. Repeatedly.

Help them with expectations (note I am not saying conditions) that they can and will succeed. Build relationships that give rise to teaching and training. This should look a lot like how a parent develops good habits in their child. Mentoring, life coaching, discipling; call it what you will but there needs to be an investment beyond money or things.

Yes, I know that I am rambling. 

Isn't to so refreshing to see a liberal questioning what someone gives!!!! Its not like almost every word that comes out their mouths is "don't judge" anything. In the end..... they aren't really trying to remove judgement and promote acceptance. They just want you to be like them.

Sorry silly..... I'll give my money to whomever I want... when I want to give it.... and ever how I want to give. That is why its called a "gift". You don't get to question my "gift". You really need to look up the word "gift" sometime. You're expect "payment" to the poor. A "gift" doesn't work that way numb nut.

You are an odd little man.

 

[christundivided]

The problem as I see it is the "us against them" mindset that has taken such deep root in our society. No one understands nuance or considers circumstance.

How that relates to the OP is summed up in statements like "I don't mind helping those who are willing to help themselves but there is no way that I am giving a dime to some deadbeat". How delightfully convenient to have the excuse in hand before the need is communicated. And how quickly the determination of deadbeatism follows.

Most of our churches have some sort of youth program. Do any have mentoring programs to help the parents of those "bus kids" from the projects (or trailer parks or down in the holler)? Sometimes it isn't that the parents don't "want to" it is that they don't know how. Worse, they don't think that they can. Neither of the approaches common to the american church help much. All stick (you get yourself cleaned up and we will help) or all carrot (who are we to judge, we just keep giving cause Jesus told us to) both fail. Repeatedly.

Help them with expectations (note I am not saying conditions) that they can and will succeed. Build relationships that give rise to teaching and training. This should look a lot like how a parent develops good habits in their child. Mentoring, life coaching, discipling; call it what you will but there needs to be an investment beyond money or things.

Yes, I know that I am rambling. 

Isn't to so refreshing to see a liberal questioning what someone gives!!!! Its not like almost every word that comes out their mouths is "don't judge" anything. In the end..... they aren't really trying to remove judgement and promote acceptance. They just want you to be like them.

Sorry silly..... I'll give my money to whomever I want... when I want to give it.... and ever how I want to give. That is why its called a "gift". You don't get to question my "gift". You really need to look up the word "gift" sometime. You're expect "payment" to the poor. A "gift" doesn't work that way numb nut.

You are an odd little man.

Not really. Just got your #.

 

[subllibrm]

The problem as I see it is the "us against them" mindset that has taken such deep root in our society. No one understands nuance or considers circumstance.

How that relates to the OP is summed up in statements like "I don't mind helping those who are willing to help themselves but there is no way that I am giving a dime to some deadbeat". How delightfully convenient to have the excuse in hand before the need is communicated. And how quickly the determination of deadbeatism follows.

Most of our churches have some sort of youth program. Do any have mentoring programs to help the parents of those "bus kids" from the projects (or trailer parks or down in the holler)? Sometimes it isn't that the parents don't "want to" it is that they don't know how. Worse, they don't think that they can. Neither of the approaches common to the american church help much. All stick (you get yourself cleaned up and we will help) or all carrot (who are we to judge, we just keep giving cause Jesus told us to) both fail. Repeatedly.

Help them with expectations (note I am not saying conditions) that they can and will succeed. Build relationships that give rise to teaching and training. This should look a lot like how a parent develops good habits in their child. Mentoring, life coaching, discipling; call it what you will but there needs to be an investment beyond money or things.

Yes, I know that I am rambling. 

Isn't to so refreshing to see a liberal questioning what someone gives!!!! Its not like almost every word that comes out their mouths is "don't judge" anything. In the end..... they aren't really trying to remove judgement and promote acceptance. They just want you to be like them.

Sorry silly..... I'll give my money to whomever I want... when I want to give it.... and ever how I want to give. That is why its called a "gift". You don't get to question my "gift". You really need to look up the word "gift" sometime. You're expect "payment" to the poor. A "gift" doesn't work that way numb nut.

You are an odd little man.

Not really. Just got your #.

Since you haven't quoted me accurately yet and you have misinterpreted just about everything I have posted I am left with only one conclusion how you process information; to a man with a hammer all the world is a nail.

 

[christundivided]

The problem as I see it is the "us against them" mindset that has taken such deep root in our society. No one understands nuance or considers circumstance.

How that relates to the OP is summed up in statements like "I don't mind helping those who are willing to help themselves but there is no way that I am giving a dime to some deadbeat". How delightfully convenient to have the excuse in hand before the need is communicated. And how quickly the determination of deadbeatism follows.

Most of our churches have some sort of youth program. Do any have mentoring programs to help the parents of those "bus kids" from the projects (or trailer parks or down in the holler)? Sometimes it isn't that the parents don't "want to" it is that they don't know how. Worse, they don't think that they can. Neither of the approaches common to the american church help much. All stick (you get yourself cleaned up and we will help) or all carrot (who are we to judge, we just keep giving cause Jesus told us to) both fail. Repeatedly.

Help them with expectations (note I am not saying conditions) that they can and will succeed. Build relationships that give rise to teaching and training. This should look a lot like how a parent develops good habits in their child. Mentoring, life coaching, discipling; call it what you will but there needs to be an investment beyond money or things.

Yes, I know that I am rambling. 

Isn't to so refreshing to see a liberal questioning what someone gives!!!! Its not like almost every word that comes out their mouths is "don't judge" anything. In the end..... they aren't really trying to remove judgement and promote acceptance. They just want you to be like them.

Sorry silly..... I'll give my money to whomever I want... when I want to give it.... and ever how I want to give. That is why its called a "gift". You don't get to question my "gift". You really need to look up the word "gift" sometime. You're expect "payment" to the poor. A "gift" doesn't work that way numb nut.

You are an odd little man.

Not really. Just got your #.

Since you haven't quoted me accurately yet and you have misinterpreted just about everything I have posted I am left with only one conclusion how you process information; to a man with a hammer all the world is a nail.

Poor baby.... Its rather simple....

You question the motives of those who give. You question the sincerity of those who give and still think deadbeats don't deserve a "gift". You promote acceptance and then you're not accepting of those who believe deadbeats don't need to be given a "gift".

Thus, you're really not about acceptance. You just want to "cloak" you message in "acceptance"..... all the while demanding that people change.

This pretty much sums up the average liberal mentality. The average liberal really isn't accepting of others. You just enjoy bashing other people for different reason. You're just the same. You're a basher trying to pretend you're not to be a basher while preaching tolerance.... Pretty much a hypocrite.

 

[subllibrm]

Poor baby.... Its rather simple....

You question the motives of those who give. You question the sincerity of those who give and still think deadbeats don't deserve a "gift". You promote acceptance and then you're not accepting of those who believe deadbeats don't need to be given a "gift".

Thus, you're really not about acceptance. You just want to "cloak" you message in "acceptance"..... all the while demanding that people change.

This pretty much sums up the average liberal mentality. The average liberal really isn't accepting of others. You just enjoy bashing other people for different reason. You're just the same. You're a basher trying to pretend you're not to be a basher while preaching tolerance.... Pretty much a hypocrite.

Translation: "I haven't comprehended a word that you have written".

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Most of it is implicit (although some is explicit) as seen here:

http://www.daveramsey.com/blog/20-things-the-rich-do-every-day

The implicit message being if the poor would just get it together, they wouldn't be poor anymore. This is not to excuse every individual's personal obligation to live as responsibly as possible. But poverty is a multi-faceted issue, and it's certainly more complex than "make better choices and you'll stop being poor."

This is a good response to the Ramsey article, which explains the problems better than I can:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/11/30/what-dave-ramsey-gets-wrong-about-poverty/

In that link, did you read Ramsey's response to the allegation you seem to purport, where he defended himself from the false allegation that he was "anti-poor"?

I have read his response. I think the CNN piece deals with it quite well, and undercuts some of his assumptions/conclusions.

CNN?!
After stufffundieslike, they're my favorite agenda driven propagandists.

It was a guest column by Rachel Held Evans, who is an evangelical blogger.

I know who she is....stufffundieslike is also an 'evangelical' source....
She and Caryn Rivadeneira among others over- reacted hysterically IMO.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

The problem as I see it is the "us against them" mindset that has taken such deep root in our society. No one understands nuance or considers circumstance.

How that relates to the OP is summed up in statements like "I don't mind helping those who are willing to help themselves but there is no way that I am giving a dime to some deadbeat". How delightfully convenient to have the excuse in hand before the need is communicated. And how quickly the determination of deadbeatism follows.

Most of our churches have some sort of youth program. Do any have mentoring programs to help the parents of those "bus kids" from the projects (or trailer parks or down in the holler)? Sometimes it isn't that the parents don't "want to" it is that they don't know how. Worse, they don't think that they can. Neither of the approaches common to the american church help much. All stick (you get yourself cleaned up and we will help) or all carrot (who are we to judge, we just keep giving cause Jesus told us to) both fail. Repeatedly.

Help them with expectations (note I am not saying conditions) that they can and will succeed. Build relationships that give rise to teaching and training. This should look a lot like how a parent develops good habits in their child. Mentoring, life coaching, discipling; call it what you will but there needs to be an investment beyond money or things.

Yes, I know that I am rambling. 

Our church has a youth ministry...and we also have an outreach to one of the poorest and supposedly the most gang infiltrated areas of our small community. There are parents there who do the best they can with what they have. There are also some deadbeats who sell their food stamp allotment to support a drug habit.
There is a difference between offering a hand out and a hand up. Sometimes the difference is simply the character and temperament of the one on the receiving end.