Are dress standards dead in a majority of churches?

[rsc2a]

Anyone who equates CCM, pants on wimmins, or using newer translations of the Bible with worldliness doesn't have a clue as to how the term is actually used in scripture.

 

[Ransom]

Anyone who equates CCM, pants on wimmins, or using newer translations of the Bible with worldliness doesn't have a clue as to how the term is actually used in scripture.

What, it's not "be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your wardrobes"?

 

[praise_yeshua]

In this, YOU are the one who is misinformed; according to baptist2baptist.net, there are 30 SBC churches with a woman pastor, with two of these in Texas.

I remember listening to coverage of the SBC Conventions 30 years ago where both this topic and the inerrancy of the Scriptures were topics of controversy.

Walt.... go to the source.

http://www.sbc.net/faqs.asp

Southern Baptists have long valued the priceless contribution of women as they have ministered to advance God's Kingdom. The Baptist Faith and Message (BF&M) affirms the vital role of women serving in the church. Yet it recognizes the biblical restriction concerning the office of pastor, saying: "While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture." The passages that restrict the office of pastor to men do not negate the essential equality of men and women before God, but rather focus on the assignment of roles.

The Southern Baptist Convention also passed a resolution in the early 1980s recognizing that offices requiring ordination are restricted to men. However the BF&M and resolutions are not binding upon local churches. Each church is responsible to prayerfully search the Scriptures and establish its own policy.

We've included links below to the BF&M ("Article VI: The Church" applies), as well as a link to an article that we ran in SBC LIFE several years back addressing this issue. These should prove helpful in studying the topic.

The Southern Baptist Convention has not addressed the issue of all the available avenues through which a woman may serve, only the biblical restrictions concerning pastoral ministry and ministry requiring ordination. The potential opportunities for women to serve in vocational ministry within the SBC are indeed vast.

http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/1225/on-biblical-scholarship-and-the-doctrine-of-inerrancy

WHEREAS, Some biblical scholars who identify themselves as evangelicals have in recent years denied the historicity of Adam and Eve (Genesis 1–2) and of the fall of mankind into sin (Genesis 3), among other historical assertions of Scripture; and

WHEREAS, Many of these same scholars have called on other evangelical scholars to abandon the doctrine of inerrancy and to embrace on a wholesale basis the methodology of higher critical biblical scholarship in the study of Scripture; and

WHEREAS, The Bible asserts for itself that it is God-breathed and is altogether sufficient “for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16–17); and

WHEREAS, The human authors of Scripture wrote not from their own imaginations, but instead as they were “moved by the Holy Spirit, men spoke from God” (2 Peter 1:21); and

WHEREAS, The primary purpose of biblical scholarship is to glorify God through the study and proclamation of “the faith that was delivered to the saints once for all” (Jude 3), which faith is set forth in Holy Scripture; and

WHEREAS, Southern Baptists have affirmed historically and consistently our unshakeable belief that the Bible in its entirety has “truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter,” and is therefore “totally true and trustworthy” (The Baptist Faith and Message, Article I, “The Scriptures”); now, therefore, be it

RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in New Orleans, Louisiana, June 19–20, 2012, do hereby reaffirm our belief in and adherence to the doctrine of the inerrancy of Scripture, as set forth in the Bible itself and in Article I of The Baptist Faith and Message; and be it further

RESOLVED, That we affirm our belief specifically in the direct creation and historicity of Adam and Eve and in a literal, space-time fall of mankind into sin; and be it finally

RESOLVED, That we call on all biblical scholars serving in Southern Baptist institutions to help shape the Christian worldview of the next generation by carrying out their work of teaching, research, and writing with an excellence and freedom that is always in submission to Jesus Christ and in the service of the inerrant Word of God.

You really should keep up with things  and not TRUST a SMEAR website for information....

 

[prophet]

Once again, the Bible never tells us to dress modestly.
It defines modest dress as "good works"

Context is your friend, right?
This passage has nothing to do with clothing, it is only mentioned in a metaphor:

1Ti 2:8-15
8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Wow.... are you being sarcastic or are you really being serious?

The passage is certainly cultural.... metaphorical..... not so much....

Clothing is a metaphor for good works.
What is crazy about that?

"Women be adorned with the modest apparel of good works."

It is the only mention of modesty, and it isn't actually about clothing.

 

[rsc2a]

It's crazy. Thinking clothing means clothing.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It's crazy. Thinking clothing means clothing.

Ain't it....

I have to say that is the first time I've ever heard anyone claim a metaphor in 1 Timothy 2:9.... Now there is an allegory used in verse 13 but I can't see how it become "metaphorically" disconnected from being literally expressed in modest apparel.

 

[T-Bone]

Understood! Thanks.  God Bless

If you use the "quote" button, it will copy what the person said that you are replying to.

For what it's worth (and I feel that I am pretty much alone here), I think that CCM is worldly and shouldn't be used in churches. Yes, some of the songs may have good words (the majority don't, in my opinion).  But I'm talking about the music and the vocal style - they come from the world and (again, in my opinion) churches that adapt CCM usually begin dropping their standards.  It seems to me that most IFB churches today are where the new evangelicals were 40-50 years ago: back then, they had the same doctrine as fundamentalists -- it was only in the matter of separation that they disagreed with the  fundamentalists.  "In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty" was their cry.  But, now, looking at the fruit of that philosophy, they have given up practically every essential for the sake of unity.  It's not my intent to start a debate on CCM; it's been done in other places; I just wanted to let you know that you're not alone.

I am less certain about the dress standards; clearly, the Bible teaches modesty, and provides some guidelines for it.  But are those enough to say that women should only wear skirts/dresses?  I don't know for sure, but I'd rather err on the conservative side.

It's well known here that I am SBC...we have a blended service I our church...which means we use bot tradition and contemporary ( both very examined for content) in our worship service, as do almost all SBC churches I know...and I know a lot in 34 years of ministry.  Could you give me one biblical fundamental, just one that we have compromised on..based on our use of contemporary music.  Thanks.

I do not know your church, of course. Let's see... two areas that come to mind are (a) women preachers, and (b) inspiration of Scripture.  Used to be that SBC firmly supported the inerrant, inspiration of the Scriptures, and believed that women should not be preachers.  No longer the case, as I consider what I've heard of the convention meetings.

I'm not saying that CCM caused this; what I said was that churches that have adopted CCM have, in my opinion, let other matters slide over time.

Sorry brother you are misinformed ... I know of no SBC church that has either a woman pastor

In this, YOU are the one who is misinformed; according to baptist2baptist.net, there are 30 SBC churches with a woman pastor, with two of these in Texas.

I remember listening to coverage of the SBC Conventions 30 years ago where both this topic and the inerrancy of the Scriptures were topics of controversy.

No, my statement stands..I know of no SBC church...are there some churches out the with the name baptist, Southern or otherwise with female pastors...for sure, without a doubt.  But what you and other IFB fail to recognize is that eac SBC church is just as independent and autonomous as you are.  And the debate from 30 years ago about the inerrancy of the Scriptures is over and as I said that group has left.  So again every SBC church I know in the State of Arizona...not one has female pastors, not one denies the inerrancy of the Scriptures...and I have been here over 30 years starving at times as the President of the church growth division...I know all 400+ of them.

 

[T-Bone]

In this, YOU are the one who is misinformed; according to baptist2baptist.net, there are 30 SBC churches with a woman pastor, with two of these in Texas.

I remember listening to coverage of the SBC Conventions 30 years ago where both this topic and the inerrancy of the Scriptures were topics of controversy.

Walt.... go to the source.

http://www.sbc.net/faqs.asp

Southern Baptists have long valued the priceless contribution of women as they have ministered to advance God's Kingdom. The Baptist Faith and Message (BF&M) affirms the vital role of women serving in the church. Yet it recognizes the biblical restriction concerning the office of pastor, saying: "While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture." The passages that restrict the office of pastor to men do not negate the essential equality of men and women before God, but rather focus on the assignment of roles.

The Southern Baptist Convention also passed a resolution in the early 1980s recognizing that offices requiring ordination are restricted to men. However the BF&M and resolutions are not binding upon local churches. Each church is responsible to prayerfully search the Scriptures and establish its own policy.

We've included links below to the BF&M ("Article VI: The Church" applies), as well as a link to an article that we ran in SBC LIFE several years back addressing this issue. These should prove helpful in studying the topic.

The Southern Baptist Convention has not addressed the issue of all the available avenues through which a woman may serve, only the biblical restrictions concerning pastoral ministry and ministry requiring ordination. The potential opportunities for women to serve in vocational ministry within the SBC are indeed vast.

http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/1225/on-biblical-scholarship-and-the-doctrine-of-inerrancy

WHEREAS, Some biblical scholars who identify themselves as evangelicals have in recent years denied the historicity of Adam and Eve (Genesis 1–2) and of the fall of mankind into sin (Genesis 3), among other historical assertions of Scripture; and

WHEREAS, Many of these same scholars have called on other evangelical scholars to abandon the doctrine of inerrancy and to embrace on a wholesale basis the methodology of higher critical biblical scholarship in the study of Scripture; and

WHEREAS, The Bible asserts for itself that it is God-breathed and is altogether sufficient “for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16–17); and

WHEREAS, The human authors of Scripture wrote not from their own imaginations, but instead as they were “moved by the Holy Spirit, men spoke from God” (2 Peter 1:21); and

WHEREAS, The primary purpose of biblical scholarship is to glorify God through the study and proclamation of “the faith that was delivered to the saints once for all” (Jude 3), which faith is set forth in Holy Scripture; and

WHEREAS, Southern Baptists have affirmed historically and consistently our unshakeable belief that the Bible in its entirety has “truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter,” and is therefore “totally true and trustworthy” (The Baptist Faith and Message, Article I, “The Scriptures”); now, therefore, be it

RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in New Orleans, Louisiana, June 19–20, 2012, do hereby reaffirm our belief in and adherence to the doctrine of the inerrancy of Scripture, as set forth in the Bible itself and in Article I of The Baptist Faith and Message; and be it further

RESOLVED, That we affirm our belief specifically in the direct creation and historicity of Adam and Eve and in a literal, space-time fall of mankind into sin; and be it finally

RESOLVED, That we call on all biblical scholars serving in Southern Baptist institutions to help shape the Christian worldview of the next generation by carrying out their work of teaching, research, and writing with an excellence and freedom that is always in submission to Jesus Christ and in the service of the inerrant Word of God.

You really should keep up with things  and not TRUST a SMEAR website for information....

Walt, I guess your information is wrong...PY beat me to putting this up..no need for me to repost.  Now the question is are you going to let SBC speak for itself or are you going to continue to put out bogus information.

 

[Mathew Ward]

It feels like dress standards in my church are just completely gone. I thought for years that our Pastors heart was for standards, but they were never preached on. Leadership wives in our church wear pants openly to activities.  This has really worried me, and I need to know if it is like this everywhere?  Thanks

I think the best thing you could do is to study the issue of modesty for yourself. Come to your own conclusions about your understanding of the Scriptures and live accordingly.

 

[Walt]

Walt.... go to the source.


You really should keep up with things  and not TRUST a SMEAR website for information....

I did not know that it was a smear website; I admit that I have not been following SBC news; I did keep up with it in the 1980s and some in the 1990s.

 

[Walt]

In this, YOU are the one who is misinformed; according to baptist2baptist.net, there are 30 SBC churches with a woman pastor, with two of these in Texas.

I remember listening to coverage of the SBC Conventions 30 years ago where both this topic and the inerrancy of the Scriptures were topics of controversy.

Walt.... go to the source.

http://www.sbc.net/faqs.asp

Southern Baptists have long valued the priceless contribution of women as they have ministered to advance God's Kingdom. The Baptist Faith and Message (BF&M) affirms the vital role of women serving in the church. Yet it recognizes the biblical restriction concerning the office of pastor, saying: "While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture." The passages that restrict the office of pastor to men do not negate the essential equality of men and women before God, but rather focus on the assignment of roles.

The Southern Baptist Convention also passed a resolution in the early 1980s recognizing that offices requiring ordination are restricted to men. However the BF&M and resolutions are not binding upon local churches. Each church is responsible to prayerfully search the Scriptures and establish its own policy.

We've included links below to the BF&M ("Article VI: The Church" applies), as well as a link to an article that we ran in SBC LIFE several years back addressing this issue. These should prove helpful in studying the topic.

The Southern Baptist Convention has not addressed the issue of all the available avenues through which a woman may serve, only the biblical restrictions concerning pastoral ministry and ministry requiring ordination. The potential opportunities for women to serve in vocational ministry within the SBC are indeed vast.

http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/1225/on-biblical-scholarship-and-the-doctrine-of-inerrancy

WHEREAS, Some biblical scholars who identify themselves as evangelicals have in recent years denied the historicity of Adam and Eve (Genesis 1–2) and of the fall of mankind into sin (Genesis 3), among other historical assertions of Scripture; and

WHEREAS, Many of these same scholars have called on other evangelical scholars to abandon the doctrine of inerrancy and to embrace on a wholesale basis the methodology of higher critical biblical scholarship in the study of Scripture; and

WHEREAS, The Bible asserts for itself that it is God-breathed and is altogether sufficient “for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16–17); and

WHEREAS, The human authors of Scripture wrote not from their own imaginations, but instead as they were “moved by the Holy Spirit, men spoke from God” (2 Peter 1:21); and

WHEREAS, The primary purpose of biblical scholarship is to glorify God through the study and proclamation of “the faith that was delivered to the saints once for all” (Jude 3), which faith is set forth in Holy Scripture; and

WHEREAS, Southern Baptists have affirmed historically and consistently our unshakeable belief that the Bible in its entirety has “truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter,” and is therefore “totally true and trustworthy” (The Baptist Faith and Message, Article I, “The Scriptures”); now, therefore, be it

RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in New Orleans, Louisiana, June 19–20, 2012, do hereby reaffirm our belief in and adherence to the doctrine of the inerrancy of Scripture, as set forth in the Bible itself and in Article I of The Baptist Faith and Message; and be it further

RESOLVED, That we affirm our belief specifically in the direct creation and historicity of Adam and Eve and in a literal, space-time fall of mankind into sin; and be it finally

RESOLVED, That we call on all biblical scholars serving in Southern Baptist institutions to help shape the Christian worldview of the next generation by carrying out their work of teaching, research, and writing with an excellence and freedom that is always in submission to Jesus Christ and in the service of the inerrant Word of God.

You really should keep up with things  and not TRUST a SMEAR website for information....

Walt, I guess your information is wrong...PY beat me to putting this up..no need for me to repost.  Now the question is are you going to let SBC speak for itself or are you going to continue to put out bogus information.

Apparently... I didn't know that T-Bone spoke for the entire SBC.

So are you saying that there the SBC is just as fundamental as IFB, and that those that question the accuracy of Scripture and those supporting ordaining women to the ministry have left?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Walt:
Apparently... I didn't know that T-Bone spoke for the entire SBC.

So are you saying that there the SBC is just as fundamental as IFB, and that those that question the accuracy of Scripture and those supporting ordaining women to the ministry have left?

The beauty of the SBC is that their churches are as autonomous as IFB churches, except the Pastoral peer pressure is less. I would say that the SBC as a whole are just as fundamental as the IFB as a whole...if you're speaking in doctrinal terms.....apart from the added IFB fundamentals as "standards".

And, the liberals have left in droves and continue to do so as they are confronted on doctrinal error.

 

[T-Bone]

In this, YOU are the one who is misinformed; according to baptist2baptist.net, there are 30 SBC churches with a woman pastor, with two of these in Texas.

I remember listening to coverage of the SBC Conventions 30 years ago where both this topic and the inerrancy of the Scriptures were topics of controversy.

Walt.... go to the source.

http://www.sbc.net/faqs.asp

Southern Baptists have long valued the priceless contribution of women as they have ministered to advance God's Kingdom. The Baptist Faith and Message (BF&M) affirms the vital role of women serving in the church. Yet it recognizes the biblical restriction concerning the office of pastor, saying: "While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture." The passages that restrict the office of pastor to men do not negate the essential equality of men and women before God, but rather focus on the assignment of roles.

The Southern Baptist Convention also passed a resolution in the early 1980s recognizing that offices requiring ordination are restricted to men. However the BF&M and resolutions are not binding upon local churches. Each church is responsible to prayerfully search the Scriptures and establish its own policy.

We've included links below to the BF&M ("Article VI: The Church" applies), as well as a link to an article that we ran in SBC LIFE several years back addressing this issue. These should prove helpful in studying the topic.

The Southern Baptist Convention has not addressed the issue of all the available avenues through which a woman may serve, only the biblical restrictions concerning pastoral ministry and ministry requiring ordination. The potential opportunities for women to serve in vocational ministry within the SBC are indeed vast.

http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/1225/on-biblical-scholarship-and-the-doctrine-of-inerrancy

WHEREAS, Some biblical scholars who identify themselves as evangelicals have in recent years denied the historicity of Adam and Eve (Genesis 1–2) and of the fall of mankind into sin (Genesis 3), among other historical assertions of Scripture; and

WHEREAS, Many of these same scholars have called on other evangelical scholars to abandon the doctrine of inerrancy and to embrace on a wholesale basis the methodology of higher critical biblical scholarship in the study of Scripture; and

WHEREAS, The Bible asserts for itself that it is God-breathed and is altogether sufficient “for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16–17); and

WHEREAS, The human authors of Scripture wrote not from their own imaginations, but instead as they were “moved by the Holy Spirit, men spoke from God” (2 Peter 1:21); and

WHEREAS, The primary purpose of biblical scholarship is to glorify God through the study and proclamation of “the faith that was delivered to the saints once for all” (Jude 3), which faith is set forth in Holy Scripture; and

WHEREAS, Southern Baptists have affirmed historically and consistently our unshakeable belief that the Bible in its entirety has “truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter,” and is therefore “totally true and trustworthy” (The Baptist Faith and Message, Article I, “The Scriptures”); now, therefore, be it

RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in New Orleans, Louisiana, June 19–20, 2012, do hereby reaffirm our belief in and adherence to the doctrine of the inerrancy of Scripture, as set forth in the Bible itself and in Article I of The Baptist Faith and Message; and be it further

RESOLVED, That we affirm our belief specifically in the direct creation and historicity of Adam and Eve and in a literal, space-time fall of mankind into sin; and be it finally

RESOLVED, That we call on all biblical scholars serving in Southern Baptist institutions to help shape the Christian worldview of the next generation by carrying out their work of teaching, research, and writing with an excellence and freedom that is always in submission to Jesus Christ and in the service of the inerrant Word of God.

You really should keep up with things  and not TRUST a SMEAR website for information....

Walt, I guess your information is wrong...PY beat me to putting this up..no need for me to repost.  Now the question is are you going to let SBC speak for itself or are you going to continue to put out bogus information.

Apparently... I didn't know that T-Bone spoke for the entire SBC.

So are you saying that there the SBC is just as fundamental as IFB, and that those that question the accuracy of Scripture and those supporting ordaining women to the ministry have left?

Are you being intentionally obtuse? Every SBC church is independent & autonomous.  Everyone I know stands on the biblical fundamentals, but don't get caught up in the man made standards.  I did not have to speak for the entire SBC ...as you have been given their own words. Are there rouge churches, sure...but hey Walt there are rouge IFB churches too.  As Tarheel said, the SBC is very conservative so much so the liberals have formed their own group.  You really ought to stop listen to IFB with an agenda against the SBC and just ask us...I have been in an SBC church for over 56 years...I have pastor an SBC church for over 34 years, I have served on state boards and executive boards.  The SBC is not perfect, but it is far from liberal...as we ran those people out! It could be I know just a little more than the non SBCers you listen to, and maybe just a little more than you on this subject.

 

[Biker]

It feels like dress standards in my church are just completely gone. I thought for years that our Pastors heart was for standards, but they were never preached on. Leadership wives in our church wear pants openly to activities.  This has really worried me, and I need to know if it is like this everywhere?  Thanks

Hello nice to meet you.I've included some scripture below. I used to spend over an hour getting ready everyday, took longer than my wife. Someone on one of the FFF's asked me why I do this. Boy did she save me time and effort! Vanity is a real bugger of a sin to grapple with, still do sometimes

Anyhow..there is really no such thing as your OP suggests. IF you ever see this, or hear this heresy, run. Much of my life was wasted on this. Really, who cares?? except your spouse. Dress for them

Here are a few verses to take into consideration.

1 Tim 2:9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,10but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.…

1 Cor 12:20 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife.

^^^Per scripture,my wife's body belongs to me and mine to hers. We are commanded this authority within the institution of marriage where we merge as one body, come together. We are commanded this authority over one another. Whether we even want to be clothed right then, when and what we will wear is spontaneously our decision.
She prefers I wear tighter clothes than what I am comfortable with. So we meet in the middle. I like whatever she has on.

I once years back asked a married female if she could wear something which covers her more as a favor to someone in the congregation (who found her attractive). The clothes she got from my wife didn’t fit but she did better than before and was gracious about it. Yett to grant a group of men equal power in the marital relationship when our lord commands it authorized within holy matrimony is sin. The Cults, incl. IFBx, are widely known for pushing dress codes, so tread lightly. If scripture is your authority, you will figure it out lickety split.
oh the world invented pants which are intended for men and women. So wear them accordingly. To pretend we can place biblical restrictions on something not non- existent in scripture is again, pushing heresy.

.

 

[Bruh]

At this point in my life it's almost disturbing how a pastor will allow an obvious glutton woman teach Sunday School that wear dresses 100% of the time but, not allow a woman that wear pants teach Sunday School.

If a pastor believes pants on women is a sin, why is pants such a issue? and not other "obvious" "sins".  Honest question. 

 

[Just John]

RE: Southern Baptists, CCM and Liberalism....

I think it's much more accurate to say that since the takeover of the conservatives in the SBC in the early 80's and the gradual acceptance of CCM in SBC churches at the same time (my SBC church was full bore CCM in the early 80's) they have actually become more conservative, not less.

 

[Norefund]

The "standards" based modest clothing worn by FBC girls did not stop their youth pastor, Dave Hyles, or the pastor, Jack Schaap, from seducing them. Blaming a woman's clothing for man's impure thoughts and subsequent actions is like blaming the quality of food for causing gluttony.

 

[Izdaari]

At my church (Episcopal/Lutheran), "come as you are casual" is the standard, or at least the norm. You will occasionally see a man in suit & tie, or a woman in a formal dress, but it's rare. In the summer, I usually wear tank top, cargo shorts and flip-flops to church, and that's totally normal, draws no attention at all.

 

[BamaFan]

If your horse is dead, for goodness sake - dismount!