Article: Why I Have Not Left The Independent Baptist Movement.

[christundivided]

I had not read the man's other articles.  Only that one.
I have the joy of pastoring an independent Baptist church that truly is independent.  The pastor before me, a man who stayed at our church for 39 years and who is now struggling with dementia, was an expository preacher before it was cool, and faithfully stayed by the stuff.  Most of the people in our church have no idea who Jack Hyles, Curtis Hutson, or Frank Norris were.  If they know the names Paul Chappell or Clarence Sexton, it is just because their names occasionally grace a Sunday School book.  Frankly, I don't care what other independent Baptists are doing and we aren't trying to fit in with that crowd.  My only interest in the outside independent Baptist world comes because the words independent Baptist are on our church sign.
I worked for a pastor for five years who was, in my opinion, one of the most gracious and balanced men I have ever known.  After I had been hurt at another IFB church, he took me under his wing and spent time with me almost every day for the whole time I was with him, helping me and encouraging me.  He wasn't a part of any "crowd" and yet he managed to befriend an extremely diverse group of independent Baptist leaders. 
Why am I an independent Baptist?  I'm a baptist.  I enjoy the independence of our church.  I am a ecclesiastical separatist.  But I am under no misleadings that independent Baptists have a corner on truth or are the only people who are faithful to the Lord and His Word.  There are many Southern Baptists, Presbyterians and non-denominational leaders who I respect and learn from.  I have a cousin who is an orthodox presbyterian and though I don't share his ecclesiology or his eschatology, I think He loves the Lord and I enjoy listening to Him preach.
That's a muddled mess, hope that answers your questions.

Thanks for the clarification. It appears being IFB is just a personal preference to you. Am I correct?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I agree that behavior and belief are joined at the hip.

I agree. Hence, over the last 40 years, I have found the behavior of a lot of "church" people and leaders extremely inconsistent, if not altogether deplorable.

My journey to find truth continues.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

  Frankly, I don't care what other independent Baptists are doing and we aren't trying to fit in with that crowd.  My only interest in the outside independent Baptist world comes because the words independent Baptist are on our church sign.

That really confuses me. And you had mentioned in another post at another time you are trying to start a "movement"? If that movement is outside your church, how does that not destroy your church's "independence"?

Not trying to get picky with you, just trying to understand the logic.

 

[Izdaari]

I never left it because I was never in it. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I agree that behavior and belief are joined at the hip.

I agree. Hence, over the last 40 years, I have found the behavior of a lot of "church" people and leaders extremely inconsistent, if not altogether deplorable.

My journey to find truth continues.

On your 'journey' I'm afraid you'll find hypocrites in every structure, organization, group, class and family.
But, happy trails.....

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

No where else to go? How about back to the roots of Christianity? Do you really believe you need the name "Baptist" to truly identify with Christ and His teachings? Can you make a case for this belief? If its a personal preference, then fine. Treat it as such. Yet, don't preach it as the "best place to be".

no
we are there
yes
yes, though I'm not interested in doing it with you
...and I fully intend to keep preaching it as the 'best place to be'

You're welcome. 

Tom, I like, appreciate and respect you.....BUT  .....
Which place is the best place?
Your place?
Every IFB place?
Or, do you get to choose which places fit into the best category?
and 

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I agree that behavior and belief are joined at the hip.

I agree. Hence, over the last 40 years, I have found the behavior of a lot of "church" people and leaders extremely inconsistent, if not altogether deplorable.

My journey to find truth continues.

On your 'journey' I'm afraid you'll find hypocrites in every structure, organization, group, class and family.
But, happy trails.....

True. But it should be expected of "the world" but should not be expected in Christ's church. I'm not talking about perfection as obviously we all fail. I'm talking about purposeful deceit with no remorse or regard for the well-being of others.

 

[christundivided]

I agree that behavior and belief are joined at the hip.

I agree. Hence, over the last 40 years, I have found the behavior of a lot of "church" people and leaders extremely inconsistent, if not altogether deplorable.

My journey to find truth continues.

On your 'journey' I'm afraid you'll find hypocrites in every structure, organization, group, class and family.
But, happy trails.....

True. But it should be expected of "the world" but should not be expected in Christ's church. I'm not talking about perfection as obviously we all fail. I'm talking about purposeful deceit with no remorse or regard for the well-being of others.

Well said....

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I agree that behavior and belief are joined at the hip.

I agree. Hence, over the last 40 years, I have found the behavior of a lot of "church" people and leaders extremely inconsistent, if not altogether deplorable.

My journey to find truth continues.

On your 'journey' I'm afraid you'll find hypocrites in every structure, organization, group, class and family.
But, happy trails.....

True. But it should be expected of "the world" but should not be expected in Christ's church. I'm not talking about perfection as obviously we all fail. I'm talking about purposeful deceit with no remorse or regard for the well-being of others.

Jesus talked about wolves in sheep's clothing....tares among the wheat.
Why would that surprise you?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I agree that behavior and belief are joined at the hip.

I agree. Hence, over the last 40 years, I have found the behavior of a lot of "church" people and leaders extremely inconsistent, if not altogether deplorable.

My journey to find truth continues.

On your 'journey' I'm afraid you'll find hypocrites in every structure, organization, group, class and family.
But, happy trails.....

True. But it should be expected of "the world" but should not be expected in Christ's church. I'm not talking about perfection as obviously we all fail. I'm talking about purposeful deceit with no remorse or regard for the well-being of others.

Jesus talked about wolves in sheep's clothing....tares among the wheat.
Why would that surprise you?

Because in all honesty, it seems that it has become more like wheat among tares, sheep among wolves. Again, my perception I know.

 

[Fresh Air]

Tom B, do you really believe you are at the roots if Christianity? 1st century style? With not tinge of Americana attached to it?

yes
yes

...ah, now, of course there is some cultural/historical baggage attached; I do not claim to represent, in any sense, the perfect epitome of what a pastor/church ought to be. At the same time I do genuinely feel that our position is the one that is closest to the New Testament and thus to the early church. I'm slightly puzzled as to why that is controversial. If I didn't think it was here I would move (doctrine/practice) to be what I thought it was. I'm quite sure I'm not right about everything, but to the best of my knowledge and God knowing my heart, I honestly believe that our doctrine/practice is the correct ecclesiastical approach.

 

[christundivided]

Tom B, do you really believe you are at the roots if Christianity? 1st century style? With not tinge of Americana attached to it?

I honestly believe that our doctrine/practice is the correct ecclesiastical approach.

Based on what? What exactly is your "ecclesiastical approach" and what about this approach creates a worthwhile distinction in Christendom?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

In the New Testament, Jesus' church didn't have a pastor other than Christ Himself. Jesus' church met pretty much daily. Jesus' church members "had all things common". Jesus' church didn't pull in tithes to support the organizational structure. Jesus' church did not meet regularly in a sanctuary. Jesus' church used the function of deacons to serve the elderly, poor and orphans and not to make organizational decisions concerning the congregation.

Yep. The Baptist church in America today is right up there with the church Jesus built in the New Testament.

:

 

[Fresh Air]

Based on what? What exactly is your "ecclesiastical approach" and what about this approach creates a worthwhile distinction in Christendom?

I have neither the substantial time nor the inclination to go through a blow by blow explanation of what we believe and its biblical support. I suspect you know most if it all already and have, for your own reasons, rejected it and chosen something else. I've preached dozens and dozens and dozens of sermons explaining to our church what it means to be a fundamentalist, and what it means to be an independent Baptist. My point in saying that is to say that I am content in my own mind that I have studied the issue out in a fair amount of depth, and that I can give my Master a good answer when He calls me to account for how I have led this church and my family. We will all face Him and give an account of our stewardship, as I'm sure you understand. I think I will give a good account, at this point in my life, and I hope that you will as well.

 

[christundivided]

Based on what? What exactly is your "ecclesiastical approach" and what about this approach creates a worthwhile distinction in Christendom?

I have neither the substantial time nor the inclination to go through a blow by blow explanation of what we believe and its biblical support. I suspect you know most if it all already and have, for your own reasons, rejected it and chosen something else. I've preached dozens and dozens and dozens of sermons explaining to our church what it means to be a fundamentalist, and what it means to be an independent Baptist. My point in saying that is to say that I am content in my own mind that I have studied the issue out in a fair amount of depth, and that I can give my Master a good answer when He calls me to account for how I have led this church and my family. We will all face Him and give an account of our stewardship, as I'm sure you understand. I think I will give a good account, at this point in my life, and I hope that you will as well.

Fair enough. I appreciate the sentiments. I believe the distinctions often drawn by IFBs are really shared across many various "denominations". I don't particularly like or agree with the fact that IFBs often enjoy their "separation". In reality, they really aren't that different in doctrine from many various groups within Christianity. One of the clear distinction I can see is being KJVO. In practice, its becoming more and more KJV preferred. Which can be said of many people outside of IFB circles. Thanks

 

[Smellin Coffee]

In the New Testament, Jesus' church didn't have a pastor other than Christ Himself. Jesus' church met pretty much daily. Jesus' church members "had all things common". Jesus' church didn't pull in tithes to support the organizational structure. Jesus' church did not meet regularly in a sanctuary. Jesus' church used the function of deacons to serve the elderly, poor and orphans and not to make organizational decisions concerning the congregation.

Yep. The Baptist church in America today is right up there with the church Jesus built in the New Testament.

:

I would also contend that the Baptist church of today uses a different canon than did those of the New Testament church.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I remain IFB because I believe what those words mean: Independent, Fundamental Baptist.  I have withdrawn my membership from the Not-A-Denomination-Denomination.

Yes, I believe Independent, Fundamental Baptist best summarizes the teachings of Christ and the mandate, method and management of the church as laid out by the New Testament and other early historical writings of the church.

Yes, I would agree that many IFB churches have corrupted the original intent of the church.  There needs to be a pulling away from old institutions or a restoration of those institutions.  This is not uncommon.  Our history is full of good movements that are corrupted after two generations.  Typically, there has been a separation from the corruption.  I see a movement among IFB pastors under 40 years of age to restore the Biblical mandate, method and management of the church.  Obviously, this restoration movement is somewhat limited, but it is growing.

 

[christundivided]

I remain IFB because I believe what those words mean: Independent, Fundamental Baptist.  I have withdrawn my membership from the Not-A-Denomination-Denomination.

Yes, I believe Independent, Fundamental Baptist best summarizes the teachings of Christ and the mandate, method and management of the church as laid out by the New Testament and other early historical writings of the church.

Yes, I would agree that many IFB churches have corrupted the original intent of the church.  There needs to be a pulling away from old institutions or a restoration of those institutions.  This is not uncommon.  Our history is full of good movements that are corrupted after two generations.  Typically, there has been a separation from the corruption.  I see a movement among IFB pastors under 40 years of age to restore the Biblical mandate, method and management of the church.  Obviously, this restoration movement is somewhat limited, but it is growing.

Can you define what makes IFB unique? What can be found in being a proper IFB that can't be found anywhere else?

 

[rsc2a]

I remain IFB because I believe what those words mean: Independent, Fundamental Baptist.  I have withdrawn my membership from the Not-A-Denomination-Denomination.

BC -

What would you say to this?

I tend to think independent Baptists stress the"independent" entirely too much. The local body is responsible for itself, but it is still responsible to other bodies. Additionally, one should be aware of (and responsive to) history and fellow congregations even though they shouldn't treat those examples as sacrosanct. It is fundamentally impossible to be completely "independent".

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I remain IFB because I believe what those words mean: Independent, Fundamental Baptist.  I have withdrawn my membership from the Not-A-Denomination-Denomination.

BC -

What would you say to this?

I tend to think independent Baptists stress the"independent" entirely too much. The local body is responsible for itself, but it is still responsible to other bodies. Additionally, one should be aware of (and responsive to) history and fellow congregations even though they shouldn't treat those examples as sacrosanct. It is fundamentally impossible to be completely "independent".

By Independent, I mean autonomous in government.  There should be no outside force controlling the church's methods, money, membership, management or messages.  I do believe churches should take the example offered in the New Testament to notice other churches in need and send a free will offering or assist in another manner.  A prime example of this would be to support a missionary or finance a church plant or offer helping hands for a project.  However, these are all free will offerings that did not come through request or mandate of an outside body.  A church might join in another church's evangelism campaign or week long meeting.  A pastor might seek counsel from another pastor.  These would be examples of learning or in some cases, admonishing one another.  Such cases are taught in the Bible.  However, to be manipulated by an evangelist or nationally known "pastor" or speaker into changing your church, is to sacrifice your independence.  Also, to be controlled financially by another is to sacrifice your independence.  This creates a fine line.  While a church may financially support a church plant, that church must be independent and able to make its own decisions.  The support should be given as a free will offering - not as a tool of manipulation and control.