Be imitators/followers of Paul

[ALAYMAN]

Again. You're deflecting and twisting the facts.

1Co 15:9  For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Paul said such things because he persecuted the church before his conversion. Don't drag him down to the level of those today. He's better than that. I'm not trying to "praise Paul" I give God the glory for his example that I can follow through the Scriptures.

The revelation of God that we have through the ministry of Paul is essential to the body of Christ. You have no other comparison to make that reachs the magnitude of his gift to the church. Not even close.

Paul didn't just commend himself, as he also spoke well of others who followed the Christlike example of more than just Timothy.

 

[ALAYMAN]

One of you says, ?I follow Paul?; another, ?I follow Apollos?; another, ?I follow Cephas?; still another, ?I follow Christ.?

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?

The divisive nature of the Corinthian church was obviously an overwhelming consideration to the theme of much of Paul's letter.  This verse is speaking of the unnecessarily schismatic nature of cliques (similar to that which went  on during the love feasts, where he told them to eat in their own homes).  It is not schismatic to demonstrate Christlike traits and hope/expect that other less mature believers imitate your lifestyle.

We see this pattern repeatedly in the New Testament God's call for believers to "be imitators" ultimately of Jesus, the perfect example of the perfect Man...



1 Cor 4:16 Therefore (based on what he has just said - see Taylor's discussion) I exhort you , be imitators of me.



Mark Taylor has an insightful note on 1Cor 4:16 and the verses in the preceding context - There is a significant connection between Paul?s description of suffering and the teaching of Jesus at this point, which paves the way for the exhortation of imitation in 4:16-17. Paul?s catalog of tribulations puts Christian values in stark contrast to worldly values. The world?s opinion of the apostles may be summed up in two phrases, translated by the NIV as ?scum of the earth? and ?refuse of the world,? terms used metaphorically for anything contemptible. Apostles were regarded by the world as the most detestable of all people, but, as such, the apostles incarnated the scandal of the cross.....


The focus of 1Cor 4:14-17, which is closely linked to 1Cor 4:6-13, is apostolic imitation. To this point in the argument Paul has established that his ministry among them embodied the wisdom of God (1Cor 2:1-5,13-16; 3:10), that he and other apostles are living examples of Christ crucified (Ed: cf Gal 2:20) (1Cor 4:9-13).....



In light of all that Paul has argued to this point in the letter and in light of his role as the founder of the church in Corinth, their father in the Gospel, he has established his right to say (literally), ?Become imitators of me.? He has not written to shame but to admonish (1Cor 4:14). But how are they to imitate Paul? 1Cor 4:17 explains that it has to do with his way of life in Christ. The most immediate example (Ed: The  context) is 1Cor 4:9-13, which includes not only the reality of suffering for the Gospel but also the proper response to those who inflict it (4:12-13) (Ed: Compare Peter's exhortation regarding suffering for doing right in 1Pe 2:20-21 and the proper response to unjust suffering in 1Pe 2:22-23). To imitate Paul would be to walk in the way of humility and suffering and godliness for the cause of Christ. Imitation is not the same as saying, ?I belong to Paul!? Rather, Paul wants them to incarnate the cross (Ed: Which recalls Paul's famous declaration in Galatians 2:20. And so Paul is calling the readers to imitate the crucified life in their daily experience. All believers have been crucified with Christ positionally but it is quite another thing to live it out in our daily lives as Jesus advocated in Mk 8:34-35, Lk 9:23), to live out their Christian identity in a real and meaningful way, to become true disciples of Christ. This teaching, Paul claims, is universal to all the churches and not specific only to the church at Corinth (see also 1Cor 7:17; 11:16; 14:33-36). There was a consistency of apostolic teaching and expectation of imitation in all the churches (Ed: Nor was Paul the only apostle who exhorted the saints to be imitators of Christ - e.g. Peter in 1Pe 2:21 and John in 1Jn 2:6). Paul?s sending Timothy was not a special case in the sense that unusual demands would be made of the Corinthians. The Corinthians are part of a greater whole (cf. 1 Cor 1:1-2).....Paul himself plans to visit Corinth in person (1Cor 4:18-21), but until he comes he wants Timothy?s actual presence in Corinth to remind them of his pattern of life in Christ. The implication that ?presence? is a necessary component of ?imitation? is hard to miss.  (1 Corinthians - New American Commentary)

 

[prophet]

Where are all the rabid cessationists, when it comes to church authority?

On one hand, you want us to believe that God no longer does anything miraculous, and that the gifts of the Spirit are "sign gifts for the apostolic age".
On the other hand, you want us to believe that the local 25 year-old Bible College grad is the second coming of Paul and Peter combined, because he is the " man of God called to pastor the local church", and assign to him all the authority of an apostle.

Which is it?

Have your cake or eat it!

Please ignore this like you did my last post.

Earnestly Contend

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Where are all the rabid cessationists, when it comes to church authority?

On one hand, you want us to believe that God no longer does anything miraculous, and that the gifts of the Spirit are "sign gifts for the apostolic age".
On the other hand, you want us to believe that the local 25 year-old Bible College grad is the second coming of Paul and Peter combined, because he is the " man of God called to pastor the local church", and assign to him all the authority of an apostle.

Which is it?

Have your cake or eat it!

Please ignore this like you did my last post.

Earnestly Contend

One of you says, ?I follow Paul?; another, ?I follow Apollos?; another, ?I follow Cephas?; still another, ?I follow Christ.?

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?

The "man of God called to pastor the local church" is named Joe, and he should write, "follow me, since I was crucified for you, and I baptized you in the name of Joe." 

 

[prophet]

Where are all the rabid cessationists, when it comes to church authority?

On one hand, you want us to believe that God no longer does anything miraculous, and that the gifts of the Spirit are "sign gifts for the apostolic age".
On the other hand, you want us to believe that the local 25 year-old Bible College grad is the second coming of Paul and Peter combined, because he is the " man of God called to pastor the local church", and assign to him all the authority of an apostle.

Which is it?

Have your cake or eat it!

Please ignore this like you did my last post.

Earnestly Contend

One of you says, ?I follow Paul?; another, ?I follow Apollos?; another, ?I follow Cephas?; still another, ?I follow Christ.?

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?

The "man of God called to pastor the local church" is named Joe, and he should write, "follow me, since I was crucified for you, and I baptized you in the name of Joe."

Shhhhh, you're giving away the answer...
Be vewwy vewwwy quiet, I'm baiting wabbits.

Earnestly Contend

 

[ALAYMAN]

Where are all the rabid cessationists, when it comes to church authority?

On one hand, you want us to believe that God no longer does anything miraculous, and that the gifts of the Spirit are "sign gifts for the apostolic age".
On the other hand, you want us to believe that the local 25 year-old Bible College grad is the second coming of Paul and Peter combined, because he is the " man of God called to pastor the local church", and assign to him all the authority of an apostle.

Which is it?

Have your cake or eat it!

Please ignore this like you did my last post.

Earnestly Contend

I ignored you for several reasons.  Because you rarely finish a conversation, regularly abandoning them.  Because you often don't make sense.  And because you have bizarre thought patterns.  Who said God never does anything miraculous anymore?


But if it makes you feel better.  Who said that one that should be followed has to be a preacher?  Who said that the one to be imitated must attend seminary?

These are all evidences of your own strawmen.  You erected them.  Knock 'em down.  Just don't think that anybody with more than a 6th grade education ought to fall for these sort of fallacious arguments.


If you had an ounce of integrity you would have addressed my last post where I rightly gave the context of the I Cor 1:13 verse (schismatic divisions and prideful allegiances), and how it has ZERO to do with rightly imitating the traits of godliness that a more mature believer is to model for those who are seeking to grow in Christ.

 

[prophet]

Where are all the rabid cessationists, when it comes to church authority?

On one hand, you want us to believe that God no longer does anything miraculous, and that the gifts of the Spirit are "sign gifts for the apostolic age".
On the other hand, you want us to believe that the local 25 year-old Bible College grad is the second coming of Paul and Peter combined, because he is the " man of God called to pastor the local church", and assign to him all the authority of an apostle.

Which is it?

Have your cake or eat it!

Please ignore this like you did my last post.

Earnestly Contend

I ignored you for several reasons.  Because you rarely finish a conversation, regularly abandoning them.  Because you often don't make sense.  And because you have bizarre thought patterns.  Who said God never does anything miraculous anymore?


But if it makes you feel better.  Who said that one that should be followed has to be a preacher?  Who said that the one to be imitated must attend seminary?

These are all evidences of your own strawmen.  You erected them.  Knock 'em down.  Just don't think that anybody with more than a 6th grade education ought to fall for these sort of fallacious arguments.


If you had an ounce of integrity you would have addressed my last post where I rightly gave the context of the I Cor 1:13 verse (schismatic divisions and prideful allegiances), and how it has ZERO to do with rightly imitating the traits of godliness that a more mature believer is to model for those who are seeking to grow in Christ.

"If you had one ounce of integrity you'd 'do what I want you to do, while I continue to duck hard questions'"
*Part in ' ' translated by prophet.

Earnestly Contend

 

[ALAYMAN]

"If you had one ounce of integrity you'd 'do what I want you to do, while I continue to duck hard questions'"
*Part in ' ' translated by prophet.

More fallacious argumentation.

What does the notion of cessation or continuation of the sign gifts have to do with being a Christlike witness and mentoring/discipling converts?

 

[prophet]

"If you had one ounce of integrity you'd 'do what I want you to do, while I continue to duck hard questions'"
*Part in ' ' translated by prophet.

More fallacious argumentation.

What does the notion of cessation or continuation of the sign gifts have to do with being a Christlike witness and mentoring/discipling converts?

The belief in "pastoral authority" ,that keeps "disciples" in spiritual diapers , has everything to do with this discussion.

Earnestly Contend

 

[ALAYMAN]

The belief in "pastoral authority" ,that keeps "disciples" in spiritual diapers , has everything to do with this discussion.

Again, not to be overly repetitive, but as Reagan said, "there you go again".  Who said ANYTHING about pastoral authority in this thread, other than you sliding it in?  Please show your work.  Cite the phrase or statement that I've invoked pastoral authority in any sense in this thread?

And your slight of hand about Cessation, are you going to attempt to at least explain what it has to do with any point you're trying to make?

 

[prophet]

"If you had one ounce of integrity you'd 'do what I want you to do, while I continue to duck hard questions'"
*Part in ' ' translated by prophet.

More fallacious argumentation.

What does the notion of cessation or continuation of the sign gifts have to do with being a Christlike witness and mentoring/discipling converts?

The belief in "pastoral authority" ,that keeps "disciples" in spiritual diapers , has everything to do with this discussion.

Earnestly Contend

Since you seem to be incapable of putting 2 & 2 together, without help....

I'll reiterate it :

The biggest proponents of pastoral authority, seem to be the biggest proponents of apostolic cessation.
I find this to be double-minded.
Discussion:

Earnestly Contend

 

[ALAYMAN]

"If you had one ounce of integrity you'd 'do what I want you to do, while I continue to duck hard questions'"
*Part in ' ' translated by prophet.

More fallacious argumentation.

What does the notion of cessation or continuation of the sign gifts have to do with being a Christlike witness and mentoring/discipling converts?

The belief in "pastoral authority" ,that keeps "disciples" in spiritual diapers , has everything to do with this discussion.

Earnestly Contend

Since you seem to be incapable of putting 2 & 2 together, without help....

I'll reiterate it :

The biggest proponents of pastoral authority, seem to be the biggest proponents of apostolic cessation.
I find this to be double-minded.
Discussion:

Earnestly Contend

WHO HAS SAID ANYTHING ABOUT PASTORAL AUTHORITY IN THIS THREAD OTHER THAN YOU????

 

[prophet]

The belief in "pastoral authority" ,that keeps "disciples" in spiritual diapers , has everything to do with this discussion.

Again, not to be overly repetitive, but as Reagan said, "there you go again".  Who said ANYTHING about pastoral authority in this thread, other than you sliding it in?  Please show your work.  Cite the phrase or statement that I've invoked pastoral authority in any sense in this thread?

And your slight of hand about Cessation, are you going to attempt to at least explain what it has to do with any point you're trying to make?

You either do not possess the mental aptitude, or the Guide, to be able to keep up in these discussions.
I posted some breast milk for you, but after that I can't help you.
Like I said before," if you don't understand my posts, don't answer them".

By the way, were you admitting to rabid cessationism?

Earnestly Contend

 

[prophet]

Would somebody please explain to ANikko'dlayman, what "following a man" has to do with "pastoral authority"?
Cuz I give up.

Earnestly Contend

 

[ALAYMAN]

You either do not possess the mental aptitude, or the Guide, to be able to keep up in these discussions.
I posted some breast milk for you, but after that I can't help you.
Like I said before," if you don't understand my posts, don't answer them".

By the way, were you admitting to rabid cessationism?

Earnestly Contend

You must be insane.

It's an easy question.  Who in this thread, besides you, has introduced the concept of pastoral authority?

To try to get you back on track with rational thought, here's the OP...

Recently some freebird folk have protested the Apostle's words "be ye followers of me even as I also am of Christ".  They have done so under the auspices that to follow any man will eventually lead a person into imitation of one who will show the wrong path in some manner or another.  Though I agree completely that all humans are prone to sinful faults, the Scriptures are replete with injunctions to observe more mature believers and learn from them. Here are just a few examples of how the Apostle Paul told those who were under his spiritual tutelage to imitate/follow his doctrine and/or example.  Notice how Paul wields the authority of one who has been delegated the power to command others to observe and learn from his life examples and teachings....

Notice the big words above?  No mention of pastors, anywhere.  But there is a mention of mature believers.  That point alone completely undermines your insane hijack.  Are all mature believers also pastors/bishops/elders  in your addled mind?

 

[prophet]

And yet another ducked question.

I asked where the rabid cessationists are, and Anikkolaymen showed up and foamed at the mouth....
Hmmmm...

Earnestly Contend

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Would somebody please explain to ANikko'dlayman, what "following a man" has to do with "pastoral authority"?
Cuz I give up.

Earnestly Contend

I gave up a while ago and put him on ignore.  ALAYMAN is a Pharisee, obsessed with control and usurping the authority of Christ. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

And yet another ducked question.

I asked where the rabid cessationists are, and Anikkolaymen showed up and foamed at the mouth....
Hmmmm...

Earnestly Contend

No, you obfuscated, introducing multiple unrelated and irrelevant concepts into the thread, simultaneously refusing to answer one question I've asked you.  So again...

1)  Who has introduced PASTORAL authority into the discussion, except it be you?

2) What in Beelzebub's name does the concept of cessation have to do with being a Christlike example/mentor/tutor to young believers?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

And yet another ducked question.

I asked where the rabid cessationists are, and Anikkolaymen showed up and foamed at the mouth....
Hmmmm...

Earnestly Contend

No, you obfuscated, introducing multiple unrelated and irrelevant concepts into the thread, simultaneously refusing to answer one question I've asked you.  So again...

1)  Who has introduced PASTORAL authority into the discussion, except it be you?

2) What in Beelzebub's name does the concept of cessation have to do with being a Christlike example/mentor/tutor to young believers?

Peeerophet, like mater want to argue not against the Biblical concept of spiritual leadership or the office of Pastor in the local church, but against their experience of the dictatorial self centered self proclaimed man of god...which, I submit is the exception to the rule of Pastors as servant leaders.

Peerophet would like what happened at a friend's church over the past 2 years. A church of about 300 on Sunday mornings called a pastor who used his leadership skills and spiritual 'gifts' to get the church attendance down so it could fit into a house on sunday am. Now, that's what peerophet is talkin 'bout.  ;D

 

[ALAYMAN]

And yet another ducked question.

I asked where the rabid cessationists are, and Anikkolaymen showed up and foamed at the mouth....
Hmmmm...

Earnestly Contend

No, you obfuscated, introducing multiple unrelated and irrelevant concepts into the thread, simultaneously refusing to answer one question I've asked you.  So again...

1)  Who has introduced PASTORAL authority into the discussion, except it be you?

2) What in Beelzebub's name does the concept of cessation have to do with being a Christlike example/mentor/tutor to young believers?

Peeerophet, like mater want to argue not against the Biblical concept of spiritual leadership or the office of Pastor in the local church, but against their experience of the dictatorial self centered self proclaimed man of god...which, I submit is the exception to the rule of Pastors as servant leaders.

Peerophet would like what happened at a friend's church over the past 2 years. A church of about 300 on Sunday mornings called a pastor who used his leadership skills and spiritual 'gifts' to get the church attendance down so it could fit into a house on sunday am. Now, that's what peerophet is talkin 'bout.  ;D

Yeah, but whaddayouknow?  You're just a money-grubbin'-mannagawd-control-freak-republican-with-a-messiah-complex!!!


THAT'S IT, I'M PUTTING YOU ON IGNORE !!!!!!!!11!!!!!!1!!!