Billy Graham: Why The Hate?

[subllibrm]

Piper and Graham say the same thing about salvation, that it is through Jesus.

Not even close. Why are you conflating the two entirely different approaches?

Would either of them argue with these words:

Jesus paid it all,
All to Him I owe.
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as s now.

Or more importantly, these:

John 14:6 (KJV)

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Does one of them offer some other avenue beside Jesus? If they have I would like to see the proof.

 

[subllibrm]

In short, I view this whole Lordship topic as "works for salvation" when placed before, or required for, salvation.

And I would agree with you if anyone taught that.

 

[rsc2a]

In short, I view this whole Lordship topic as "works for salvation" when placed before, or required for, salvation.

Both/and , not either/or.

 

[subllibrm]

In short, I view this whole Lordship topic as "works for salvation" when placed before, or required for, salvation.

And I would agree with you if anyone taught that.

Do you agree with the following? In order to be saved, one must not only believe and acknowledge that Christ is Lord, but also submit to His lordship.

Can a saved person truly believe and not submit to His lordship?

The devils believe and acknowledge that Jesus is Lord and I know men who say that they know who Jesus is but that He can not save them due to the severity of their sin. Neither has saving faith.

If we don't think submission is part of the package then why do we sing "I Surrender (submit) All?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I don't hate Billy Graham. But, I question his salvation message.

More specifically, his fourth point regarding salvation: (I think he puts the cart before the horse)

"Fourth, we must understand the cost of coming to Christ and following Christ. Jesus constantly called upon those who would follow Him to count the cost. A person must determine to leave his sins behind and turn from them. Some people may be unwilling to do so. And there may be other costs as well when we decide to follow Christ. In some cultures, a person who turns to Christ may be disowned by family, alienated from social life, imprisoned or even killed.

The ultimate cost of true discipleship is the cost of renouncing self: self-will, self-plans, self-motivations. Christ is to be Lord of our lives. Jesus declared, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me” (Luke 9:23, NIV). Jesus does not call us to a life of selfish comfort and ease–He calls us to a battle! He calls us to give up our own plans and to follow Him without reserve–even to death.

Yes, it costs to follow Christ. But it also costs not to follow Christ. It cost the Apostle Paul the prestige of a high-level position in the Jewish nation. But he declared, “whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things” (Philippians 3:7-8, NIV). Christ calls men and women not only to trust Him as Savior, but also to follow Him as Lord."

http://billygraham.org/story/have-you-heard-the-good-news-of-salvation/

Jesus brought up something important to the rich young ruler......something that he refused to turn away from.

You either come empty handed or you don't come at all. The absolute abandonment of a man's way... is the only way to Christ.

I remember when I got saved. I had asked God to save me before. Several times. This time, I wasn't holding on to anything. Far too many people are talking the "just in case" route. I'll just do it to get it out of the way and maybe its true.... maybe it isn't. I don't know!!!!

That's not faith. Faith is believing God and abandoning everything else.

For salvation you must believe that instead of working for this salvation, Jesus has already done what needs to be done. We receive it. "As many as received him, who believed in his name, he gave them the right to become the children of God." - John Piper

http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/what-must-someone-believe-in-order-to-be-saved

The article above gives an idea of what I believe regarding salvation. His words are far more better than anything I could write right now.

But - let me add - when it comes to the Rich Young Ruler encounter. I think that man, and Christ Jesus, knew that he was trusting  riches more than Christ Jesus. I don't believe Jesus asks us to sell everything prior to following him - that example was unique. But - once we today accept the gift Jesus may ask us to pack up our homes and move to Africa.

I think Billy Graham has tailored his method of sharing the gospel to match that of a man blind or forgetful of what it was like to hear the gospel for the first time, see the need to accept this gift of eternal life, and begin a life under Jesus Christ. The simple gospel message takes a great amount of faith.

I have children who have accepted the gift. Their minds are young and they don't think deep like grown men. They see their need to accept the gift. And they understand that only Jesus Saves.

So you're actually going to post a video of a borderline hyper-Calvinist and talk of how Graham's message is wrong?

Really?

Good grief man. Piper is down right NUT.

Why do you care if you believe like Piper????Are you one of those NUTS that believe man is drawn irresistible of his own freewill? That God subdues the rebellious spirit in some men and enjoys sending his exactly identical neighbor to hell... and passing him bye?

You don't a ANYTHING to say against Graham if you believe this junk!!!!!!!!

I didn't say I endorse everything Piper writes or says. I find the specific article linked a good representation of what I believe in regards to salvation. I find Billy Graham is adding to the gospel. And it seems you might be as well. Piper might not have the best theology regarding how God works - but he seems to understand a man is saved simply by accepting Christ Jesus.

I suppose the only thing we can't hold onto is another method to be right with God. Jesus is the only savior. Only he stands as my mediator.

I didn't add anything.

Question for you....

How does a man simply believe God in accepting Jesus Christ and hold on to anything? To believe God is to abandon everything you believe and face them just as God sees them.

I don't think Graham is saying anything different than what I just said. He's just saying it differently.

A man who sees his condition, sees the solution, accepts the solution holds onto a glorious hope of eternal life for one! That and the knowledge that his sins are now as far as the east is from the west. He can rest from working and worrying about his souls condition - Jesus gives peace.

And he develops a fear of God. A desire to serve and obey. See - I said already that Billy Graham is putting the cart before the horse. Only the saved man can see the need to make Jesus Lord of his life - not the man looking curiously at salvation from the outside. The unsaved man learns he needs Jesus (Holy Spirit draws him) - the saved man learns he needs to obey Jesus (Holy Spirit instructs).

That is how I see it when I study the Bible anyway.

Why didn't you answer the question I asked? I know why..... You know the answer is clear and goes against what you're saying.

I can't believe you said "Only the saved man can see the need to make Jesus Lord of his life"

Do you know how stupid that is? Do you even know its essential that every man confess Jesus Christ as Lord? Are you really that lost in this?

A person can not be saved apart from making Jesus Christ the Lord of his life. You've bought the silly rhetoric of NUTS like Piper to the point its impossible for you to believe the Scriptures.

I was under the personal impression I answered your question.

Sorry for believing the Bible. The Bible says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

In short, I view this whole Lordship topic as "works for salvation" when placed before, or required for, salvation.

I see you and raise you

Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

It is essential for a person to confess JESUS AS LORD!

How the world you seek to separate this fact from the Gospel is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[praise_yeshua]

In short, I view this whole Lordship topic as "works for salvation" when placed before, or required for, salvation.

And I would agree with you if anyone taught that.

Do you agree with the following? In order to be saved, one must not only believe and acknowledge that Christ is Lord, but also submit to His lordship.

Can a saved person truly believe and not submit to His lordship?

The devils believe and acknowledge that Jesus is Lord and I know men who say that they know who Jesus is but that He can not save them due to the severity of their sin. Neither has saving faith.

If we don't think submission is part of the package then why do we sing "I Surrender (submit) All?

Let me share what the late Dr. McGee said: "Every Christian should commit his life to Christ. However, no unsaved person is asked to commit his life to Christ.... God has only one question to ask the unsaved: "What will you do with My Son who died for you?" If you are unsaved, you are not asked to keep the Mosaic law. You are not asked to do anything. You are asked to believe God and trust Christ who did it all for your salvation. . . . You are saved by faith, faith plus nothing--not even commitment."

God naturally knows the heart.

How many times have we taken a gift from someone only to toss it aside moments later? Did we accept the gift or reject the gift? I would say it was rejected based on what we did moments after taking it. Or - how many times have we genuinely accepted a gift only to learn it required time to appreciate? But the gift was awesome and we wanted to learn more about it.

When God hands us the gift of Jesus Christ we can accept it. We take the Bible and learn about this gift and grow. Our fear of God deepens. We commit our life to the one who saved us!

You ask, can a saved person truly believe and not submit to His lordship?

I guess the answer would be no. True faith in Jesus will produce results. But only for the saved man - and well - that saved man didn't do anything but accept a gift (no strings attached).

This "man" must make Jesus Lord of His Life or he isn't SAVED!!!!

How difficult is this for you?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I don't hate Billy Graham. But, I question his salvation message.

More specifically, his fourth point regarding salvation: (I think he puts the cart before the horse)

"Fourth, we must understand the cost of coming to Christ and following Christ. Jesus constantly called upon those who would follow Him to count the cost. A person must determine to leave his sins behind and turn from them. Some people may be unwilling to do so. And there may be other costs as well when we decide to follow Christ. In some cultures, a person who turns to Christ may be disowned by family, alienated from social life, imprisoned or even killed.

The ultimate cost of true discipleship is the cost of renouncing self: self-will, self-plans, self-motivations. Christ is to be Lord of our lives. Jesus declared, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me” (Luke 9:23, NIV). Jesus does not call us to a life of selfish comfort and ease–He calls us to a battle! He calls us to give up our own plans and to follow Him without reserve–even to death.

Yes, it costs to follow Christ. But it also costs not to follow Christ. It cost the Apostle Paul the prestige of a high-level position in the Jewish nation. But he declared, “whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things” (Philippians 3:7-8, NIV). Christ calls men and women not only to trust Him as Savior, but also to follow Him as Lord."

http://billygraham.org/story/have-you-heard-the-good-news-of-salvation/

Jesus brought up something important to the rich young ruler......something that he refused to turn away from.

You either come empty handed or you don't come at all. The absolute abandonment of a man's way... is the only way to Christ.

I remember when I got saved. I had asked God to save me before. Several times. This time, I wasn't holding on to anything. Far too many people are talking the "just in case" route. I'll just do it to get it out of the way and maybe its true.... maybe it isn't. I don't know!!!!

That's not faith. Faith is believing God and abandoning everything else.

For salvation you must believe that instead of working for this salvation, Jesus has already done what needs to be done. We receive it. "As many as received him, who believed in his name, he gave them the right to become the children of God." - John Piper

http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/what-must-someone-believe-in-order-to-be-saved

The article above gives an idea of what I believe regarding salvation. His words are far more better than anything I could write right now.

But - let me add - when it comes to the Rich Young Ruler encounter. I think that man, and Christ Jesus, knew that he was trusting  riches more than Christ Jesus. I don't believe Jesus asks us to sell everything prior to following him - that example was unique. But - once we today accept the gift Jesus may ask us to pack up our homes and move to Africa.

I think Billy Graham has tailored his method of sharing the gospel to match that of a man blind or forgetful of what it was like to hear the gospel for the first time, see the need to accept this gift of eternal life, and begin a life under Jesus Christ. The simple gospel message takes a great amount of faith.

I have children who have accepted the gift. Their minds are young and they don't think deep like grown men. They see their need to accept the gift. And they understand that only Jesus Saves.

So you're actually going to post a video of a borderline hyper-Calvinist and talk of how Graham's message is wrong?

Really?

Good grief man. Piper is down right NUT.

Why do you care if you believe like Piper????Are you one of those NUTS that believe man is drawn irresistible of his own freewill? That God subdues the rebellious spirit in some men and enjoys sending his exactly identical neighbor to hell... and passing him bye?

You don't a ANYTHING to say against Graham if you believe this junk!!!!!!!!

I didn't say I endorse everything Piper writes or says. I find the specific article linked a good representation of what I believe in regards to salvation. I find Billy Graham is adding to the gospel. And it seems you might be as well. Piper might not have the best theology regarding how God works - but he seems to understand a man is saved simply by accepting Christ Jesus.

I suppose the only thing we can't hold onto is another method to be right with God. Jesus is the only savior. Only he stands as my mediator.

I didn't add anything.

Question for you....

How does a man simply believe God in accepting Jesus Christ and hold on to anything? To believe God is to abandon everything you believe and face them just as God sees them.

I don't think Graham is saying anything different than what I just said. He's just saying it differently.

A man who sees his condition, sees the solution, accepts the solution holds onto a glorious hope of eternal life for one! That and the knowledge that his sins are now as far as the east is from the west. He can rest from working and worrying about his souls condition - Jesus gives peace.

And he develops a fear of God. A desire to serve and obey. See - I said already that Billy Graham is putting the cart before the horse. Only the saved man can see the need to make Jesus Lord of his life - not the man looking curiously at salvation from the outside. The unsaved man learns he needs Jesus (Holy Spirit draws him) - the saved man learns he needs to obey Jesus (Holy Spirit instructs).

That is how I see it when I study the Bible anyway.

Why didn't you answer the question I asked? I know why..... You know the answer is clear and goes against what you're saying.

I can't believe you said "Only the saved man can see the need to make Jesus Lord of his life"

Do you know how stupid that is? Do you even know its essential that every man confess Jesus Christ as Lord? Are you really that lost in this?

A person can not be saved apart from making Jesus Christ the Lord of his life. You've bought the silly rhetoric of NUTS like Piper to the point its impossible for you to believe the Scriptures.

I was under the personal impression I answered your question.

Sorry for believing the Bible. The Bible says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

In short, I view this whole Lordship topic as "works for salvation" when placed before, or required for, salvation.

I see you and raise you

Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

It is essential for a person to confess JESUS AS LORD!

How the world you seek to separate this fact from the Gospel is absolutely ridiculous.

Romans 10:9 is taking about the character of saving faith. We will not be ashamed, we will not be silent, we will believe in the gospel ...

Good grief. You made a mistake. You messed up. Now admit you were wrong.

NO one and I mean.... NO ONE... believes this Timmy. No one.

Provide one reputable commentary of any sort.... that says this about Romans 10:9?

Confessing Jesus Christ as Lord is essential to salvation. Essential. To separate confessing Him as Lord from making Him Lord of your Life is absolute nonsense. Utter nonsense.

 

[T-Bone]

This whole approach is creating a distinction where there is no difference...Nobody would have denied when Jesus, Paul and others taught about trusting in Jesus as Savior, that the intent would not also be the recognition of His Lordship.  To not teach this is to deny a part of the Gospel...1) what Jesus did (died for our sin) 2) Who Jesus is (Lord of the Universe).  While men may separate these two to make their own doctrine of salvation...the Scripture does not.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

This "man" must make Jesus Lord of His Life or he isn't SAVED!!!!

How difficult is this for you?

Jesus IS Lord.  I don't make Jesus anything.  In time, every tongue -- of the saved and unsaved -- will confess that Jesus is Lord. 

 

[praise_yeshua]

This "man" must make Jesus Lord of His Life or he isn't SAVED!!!!

How difficult is this for you?

Jesus IS Lord.  I don't make Jesus anything.  In time, every tongue -- of the saved and unsaved -- will confess that Jesus is Lord.

Do what you want to do. You'll face God with it just as I will. That has nothing to do with what the Scriptures say.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Perhaps this is progressing into a misdirection, or maybe I am missing something.

When I got saved I was told clearly that I was a sinner in need of a savior - that savior was Jesus Christ. I didn't question his being Lord, and I didn't reject him as Lord ... I simply was told he was God's Son, he died for me, and I need to accept this gift of eternal life. I understood my situation - I was under God's judgement and needed the blood of Jesus to save me. I believed, had faith, accepted the "knocking" or "compunction" on my heart. I felt sorry for my sins, I turned to Jesus as the only way to be right with God.

My conversion was simple and to the point. Nothing long. Other than Sunday School, Church messages all leading me to a deep understanding of a need.

Now. From what I have been reading. SOME believe that a TRUE conversion would require that I declare Jesus as LORD - from my MOUTH. I would need to say "JESUS IS LORD" or "I DECLARE HIM LORD OF MY LIFE"

But I never rejected him. I accepted him as savior. The savior from sin.

What am I missing?

So are you telling me that you didn't confess Jesus Christ as Lord when you supposedly got "saved". Is that what you're saying?

Why wouldn't you and why didn't you? If you didn't, then how in the world are you claiming anything?

 

[praise_yeshua]

This whole approach is creating a distinction where there is no difference...Nobody would have denied when Jesus, Paul and others taught about trusting in Jesus as Savior, that the intent would not also be the recognition of His Lordship.  To not teach this is to deny a part of the Gospel...1) what Jesus did (died for our sin) 2) Who Jesus is (Lord of the Universe).  While men may separate these two to make their own doctrine of salvation...the Scripture does not.

Do you teach confessing Jesus as your Lord to be born again?

I know you do.

How can someone accept Jesus Christ for who He is with confessing Him as Lord?

 

[rsc2a]

This "man" must make Jesus Lord of His Life or he isn't SAVED!!!!

How difficult is this for you?

Jesus IS Lord.  I don't make Jesus anything.  In time, every tongue -- of the saved and unsaved -- will confess that Jesus is Lord.

Do what you want to do. You'll face God with it just as I will. That has nothing to do with what the Scriptures say.

Yes, mater. That Scripture you quoted has nothing to do with Scripture.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This "man" must make Jesus Lord of His Life or he isn't SAVED!!!!

How difficult is this for you?

Jesus IS Lord.  I don't make Jesus anything.  In time, every tongue -- of the saved and unsaved -- will confess that Jesus is Lord.

Do what you want to do. You'll face God with it just as I will. That has nothing to do with what the Scriptures say.

Yes, mater. That Scripture you quoted has nothing to do with Scripture.

Ain't you clever? Did mom help you with that one?

Of course what mater said is a reference to the Scripture but it certainly doesn't have anything to do with him doing nothing and being part of the family of God. I hope he doesn't wait till the time he mentions to finally confess Christ as Lord.

 

[T-Bone]

This whole approach is creating a distinction where there is no difference...Nobody would have denied when Jesus, Paul and others taught about trusting in Jesus as Savior, that the intent would not also be the recognition of His Lordship.  To not teach this is to deny a part of the Gospel...1) what Jesus did (died for our sin) 2) Who Jesus is (Lord of the Universe).  While men may separate these two to make their own doctrine of salvation...the Scripture does not.

Do you teach confessing Jesus as your Lord to be born again?

I know you do.

How can someone accept Jesus Christ for who He is with confessing Him as Lord?

Exactly my point.  Those who fight the "Lordship salvation" are making a distinction where the Bible does not.  The Bible makes it clear...and again I would say when salvation was taught originally in the first century church the thought of separating the two was not even on the radar.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Perhaps this is progressing into a misdirection, or maybe I am missing something.

When I got saved I was told clearly that I was a sinner in need of a savior - that savior was Jesus Christ. I didn't question his being Lord, and I didn't reject him as Lord ... I simply was told he was God's Son, he died for me, and I need to accept this gift of eternal life. I understood my situation - I was under God's judgement and needed the blood of Jesus to save me. I believed, had faith, accepted the "knocking" or "compunction" on my heart. I felt sorry for my sins, I turned to Jesus as the only way to be right with God.

My conversion was simple and to the point. Nothing long. Other than Sunday School, Church messages all leading me to a deep understanding of a need.

Now. From what I have been reading. SOME believe that a TRUE conversion would require that I declare Jesus as LORD - from my MOUTH. I would need to say "JESUS IS LORD" or "I DECLARE HIM LORD OF MY LIFE"

But I never rejected him. I accepted him as savior. The savior from sin.

What am I missing?

So are you telling me that you didn't confess Jesus Christ as Lord when you supposedly got "saved". Is that what you're saying?

Why wouldn't you and why didn't you? If you didn't, then how in the world are you claiming anything?

What I am saying is that the presenter(s) of the gospel didn't tell me it was a requirement (to VERBALLY say JESUS IS LORD)

I trusted Christ as Savior. Isn't that the same as declaring him Lord since I didn't question his authority to die for my sins? I got baptized, told people about it ... I didn't hide it under any bucket.

"Jesus is Lord!" - - - am I REALLY SAVED now? I said it.

Can't people accept he is Lord without understanding or saying it verbally - simply by their pure heart of truly trusting in Christ for salvation?

So you called Jesus your Lord and Savior without saying the words "Jesus is Lord"? You told others that he was the Lord Jesus Christ? Sounds like you made Him Lord of your life.

You're being ridiculous with the line of argument. You're talking all around the issue. Those who accept Christ ....confess Him as Lord. Its not an act of obedience that takes place after they get saved and is considered some work of righteous or evidence of said actions.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This whole approach is creating a distinction where there is no difference...Nobody would have denied when Jesus, Paul and others taught about trusting in Jesus as Savior, that the intent would not also be the recognition of His Lordship.  To not teach this is to deny a part of the Gospel...1) what Jesus did (died for our sin) 2) Who Jesus is (Lord of the Universe).  While men may separate these two to make their own doctrine of salvation...the Scripture does not.

Do you teach confessing Jesus as your Lord to be born again?

I know you do.

How can someone accept Jesus Christ for who He is with confessing Him as Lord?

Exactly my point.  Those who fight the "Lordship salvation" are making a distinction where the Bible does not.  The Bible makes it clear...and again I would say when salvation was taught originally in the first century church the thought of separating the two was not even on the radar.

Exactly!

 

[praise_yeshua]

This whole approach is creating a distinction where there is no difference...Nobody would have denied when Jesus, Paul and others taught about trusting in Jesus as Savior, that the intent would not also be the recognition of His Lordship.  To not teach this is to deny a part of the Gospel...1) what Jesus did (died for our sin) 2) Who Jesus is (Lord of the Universe).  While men may separate these two to make their own doctrine of salvation...the Scripture does not.

Do you teach confessing Jesus as your Lord to be born again?

I know you do.

How can someone accept Jesus Christ for who He is with confessing Him as Lord?

Exactly my point.  Those who fight the "Lordship salvation" are making a distinction where the Bible does not.  The Bible makes it clear...and again I would say when salvation was taught originally in the first century church the thought of separating the two was not even on the radar.

Exactly!

So - every person who didn't confess him as Lord are still dead in their sins?

Now you're trolling. I'll leave you to your game.

 

[Bob H]

John 14:6 (KJV)

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Does one of them offer some other avenue beside Jesus? If they have I would like to see the proof.

Dr. Schuller: "Tell me, what is the future of Christianity?"

Dr. Graham: "Well, Christianity and being a true believer, you know, I think there's the body of Christ which comes from all the Christian groups around the world, or outside the Christian groups. I think that everybody that loves Christ or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the body of Christ. And I don't think that we're going to see a great sweeping revival that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time."

"What God is doing today is calling people out of the world for His name. Whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the body of Christ because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their hearts they need something that they don't have and they turn to the only light they have and I think they're saved and they're going to be with us in heaven."

Dr. Schuller: "What I hear you saying is that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into a human heart and soul and life even if they've been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you're saying?"

Dr. Graham: "Yes it is because I believe that. I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations that they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, have never heard of Jesus but they've believed in their hearts that there is a God and they tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived."

Dr. Schuller: "This is fantastic. I'm so thrilled to hear you say that. There's a wideness in God's mercy.

Dr. Graham: There is. There definitely is."

 

[rsc2a]

Sounds like B. Graham has read Romans.