Billy Graham: Why The Hate?

[The Rogue Tomato]

John 14:6 (KJV)

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Does one of them offer some other avenue beside Jesus? If they have I would like to see the proof.

Dr. Schuller: "Tell me, what is the future of Christianity?"

Dr. Graham: "Well, Christianity and being a true believer, you know, I think there's the body of Christ which comes from all the Christian groups around the world, or outside the Christian groups. I think that everybody that loves Christ or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the body of Christ. And I don't think that we're going to see a great sweeping revival that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time."

"What God is doing today is calling people out of the world for His name. Whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the body of Christ because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their hearts they need something that they don't have and they turn to the only light they have and I think they're saved and they're going to be with us in heaven."

Dr. Schuller: "What I hear you saying is that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into a human heart and soul and life even if they've been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you're saying?"

Dr. Graham: "Yes it is because I believe that. I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations that they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, have never heard of Jesus but they've believed in their hearts that there is a God and they tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived."

Dr. Schuller: "This is fantastic. I'm so thrilled to hear you say that. There's a wideness in God's mercy.

Dr. Graham: There is. There definitely is."

I can't tell you what Graham was thinking when he said that.  But I might say the same thing, thinking Jesus saved these people, and that is made evident by the change in their lives.  No one comes to the Father except through Jesus is like saying no one comes into my bedroom except through the bedroom door.  It's a statement of truth that Jesus, and no one else, saves.  That says nothing about having to know the words "bedroom door", or reading a book about bedroom doors. 

 

[Anchor]

...

I can't tell you what Graham was thinking when he said that.  But I might say the same thing, thinking Jesus saved these people, and that is made evident by the change in their lives.  No one comes to the Father except through Jesus is like saying no one comes into my bedroom except through the bedroom door.  It's a statement of truth that Jesus, and no one else, saves.  That says nothing about having to know the words "bedroom door", or reading a book about bedroom doors.

OK, that pretty much doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

...

I can't tell you what Graham was thinking when he said that.  But I might say the same thing, thinking Jesus saved these people, and that is made evident by the change in their lives.  No one comes to the Father except through Jesus is like saying no one comes into my bedroom except through the bedroom door.  It's a statement of truth that Jesus, and no one else, saves.  That says nothing about having to know the words "bedroom door", or reading a book about bedroom doors.

OK, that pretty much doesn't make any sense at all.

Did you not understand what I was saying?  Or do you simply think that Jesus is unable to save anyone without a preacher and a Bible? 

 

[praise_yeshua]

...

I can't tell you what Graham was thinking when he said that.  But I might say the same thing, thinking Jesus saved these people, and that is made evident by the change in their lives.  No one comes to the Father except through Jesus is like saying no one comes into my bedroom except through the bedroom door.  It's a statement of truth that Jesus, and no one else, saves.  That says nothing about having to know the words "bedroom door", or reading a book about bedroom doors.

OK, that pretty much doesn't make any sense at all.

Did you not understand what I was saying?  Or do you simply think that Jesus is unable to save anyone without a preacher and a Bible?

Like Osmosis?

Paul answered this very question in Romans 10. Paul also told Titus that the promise of Eternal Life was manifest through preaching.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This whole approach is creating a distinction where there is no difference...Nobody would have denied when Jesus, Paul and others taught about trusting in Jesus as Savior, that the intent would not also be the recognition of His Lordship.  To not teach this is to deny a part of the Gospel...1) what Jesus did (died for our sin) 2) Who Jesus is (Lord of the Universe).  While men may separate these two to make their own doctrine of salvation...the Scripture does not.

Do you teach confessing Jesus as your Lord to be born again?

I know you do.

How can someone accept Jesus Christ for who He is with confessing Him as Lord?

Exactly my point.  Those who fight the "Lordship salvation" are making a distinction where the Bible does not.  The Bible makes it clear...and again I would say when salvation was taught originally in the first century church the thought of separating the two was not even on the radar.

Exactly!

So - every person who didn't confess him as Lord are still dead in their sins?

Now you're trolling. I'll leave you to your game.

No. I am actually quite serious. Yes or No?

See. I would say No. But ... what say you?

What's the difference between saying the words "I confess Jesus Christ as Lord"... .and saying "Lord Jesus, save me"....or "Lord" save me?

 

[rsc2a]

...

I can't tell you what Graham was thinking when he said that.  But I might say the same thing, thinking Jesus saved these people, and that is made evident by the change in their lives.  No one comes to the Father except through Jesus is like saying no one comes into my bedroom except through the bedroom door.  It's a statement of truth that Jesus, and no one else, saves.  That says nothing about having to know the words "bedroom door", or reading a book about bedroom doors.

OK, that pretty much doesn't make any sense at all.

Did you not understand what I was saying?  Or do you simply think that Jesus is unable to save anyone without a preacher and a Bible?

Like Osmosis?

Paul answered this very question in Romans 10. Paul also told Titus that the promise of Eternal Life was manifest through preaching.

Why don't you believe Romans 2?

 

[subllibrm]

Apparently the reports of Muslims coming to Christ through dreams and visions aren't true. Or the many missionary stories of meeting people who had put their faith in the "one who made me" God over the man made gods of the culture they lived in were all lies.

And there is a wideness to God's mercy. He offers it to all. How much wider can it be than that?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

...

I can't tell you what Graham was thinking when he said that.  But I might say the same thing, thinking Jesus saved these people, and that is made evident by the change in their lives.  No one comes to the Father except through Jesus is like saying no one comes into my bedroom except through the bedroom door.  It's a statement of truth that Jesus, and no one else, saves.  That says nothing about having to know the words "bedroom door", or reading a book about bedroom doors.

OK, that pretty much doesn't make any sense at all.

Did you not understand what I was saying?  Or do you simply think that Jesus is unable to save anyone without a preacher and a Bible?

Like Osmosis?

Paul answered this very question in Romans 10. Paul also told Titus that the promise of Eternal Life was manifest through preaching.

Yes, Jesus uses preaching, etc., as a means.  My question was, is that the ONLY means?  Is Jesus unable to save anyone without a preacher and a Bible? 

 

[rsc2a]

...

I can't tell you what Graham was thinking when he said that.  But I might say the same thing, thinking Jesus saved these people, and that is made evident by the change in their lives.  No one comes to the Father except through Jesus is like saying no one comes into my bedroom except through the bedroom door.  It's a statement of truth that Jesus, and no one else, saves.  That says nothing about having to know the words "bedroom door", or reading a book about bedroom doors.

OK, that pretty much doesn't make any sense at all.

Did you not understand what I was saying?  Or do you simply think that Jesus is unable to save anyone without a preacher and a Bible?

Like Osmosis?

Paul answered this very question in Romans 10. Paul also told Titus that the promise of Eternal Life was manifest through preaching.

Yes, Jesus uses preaching, etc., as a means.  My question was, is that the ONLY means?

Not according to Romans 2.

Is Jesus unable to save anyone without a preacher and a Bible?

Might be a good time to pull out your list on how people are saved.

 

[praise_yeshua]

...

I can't tell you what Graham was thinking when he said that.  But I might say the same thing, thinking Jesus saved these people, and that is made evident by the change in their lives.  No one comes to the Father except through Jesus is like saying no one comes into my bedroom except through the bedroom door.  It's a statement of truth that Jesus, and no one else, saves.  That says nothing about having to know the words "bedroom door", or reading a book about bedroom doors.

OK, that pretty much doesn't make any sense at all.

Did you not understand what I was saying?  Or do you simply think that Jesus is unable to save anyone without a preacher and a Bible?

Like Osmosis?

Paul answered this very question in Romans 10. Paul also told Titus that the promise of Eternal Life was manifest through preaching.

Yes, Jesus uses preaching, etc., as a means.  My question was, is that the ONLY means?  Is Jesus unable to save anyone without a preacher and a Bible?

Well. The Bible is preaching. Its just preaching that's written down. The same can be said of the message of the Gospel. The message itself was preached. Those that heard.... passed it on.

I can't say that God chooses to save people by any other means.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This whole approach is creating a distinction where there is no difference...Nobody would have denied when Jesus, Paul and others taught about trusting in Jesus as Savior, that the intent would not also be the recognition of His Lordship.  To not teach this is to deny a part of the Gospel...1) what Jesus did (died for our sin) 2) Who Jesus is (Lord of the Universe).  While men may separate these two to make their own doctrine of salvation...the Scripture does not.

Do you teach confessing Jesus as your Lord to be born again?

I know you do.

How can someone accept Jesus Christ for who He is with confessing Him as Lord?

Exactly my point.  Those who fight the "Lordship salvation" are making a distinction where the Bible does not.  The Bible makes it clear...and again I would say when salvation was taught originally in the first century church the thought of separating the two was not even on the radar.

Exactly!

So - every person who didn't confess him as Lord are still dead in their sins?

Now you're trolling. I'll leave you to your game.

No. I am actually quite serious. Yes or No?

See. I would say No. But ... what say you?

What's the difference between saying the words "I confess Jesus Christ as Lord"... .and saying "Lord Jesus, save me"....or "Lord" save me?

You didn't answer the question.

Is every person who did not confess him as Lord at their time of conversion still dead in their sins?

Is a person saved (or can a person be saved) if they do not refer to Jesus Christ as Lord at their time of conversion?

I want to understand your doctrine better. I don't ask people to audibly declare Christ as LORD when I share the gospel. I don't even call him Lord. I call Him God's Son. Jesus Christ died for your sins.

Who else can die for your sins but someone who has power over life? The LORD!

Now - I don't deny his Lordship. I just don't emphasize it in a specific methodical way.

Good grief.

I know what the Scriptures declare. I know what they say. What you're saying.... doesn't line up with the Scriptures. Jesus Christ is Lord

Matthew 22 records a rather interesting argument that Jesus Christ had with the religious crowd of His day. He asked why "David" said these words....

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Do you remember those words? Do you know why they are important? Do you recognize that Jesus, your LORD and MASTER, said this of Himself?

The Jehovah witness believes that Jesus is the son of God. They certainly don't address Him properly.

Do you enjoy being like a Jehovah witness? I recommend you change your attitude/message concerning the Eternal Son of God. The Lord Jesus Christ.

I confessed Jesus as my Lord and Savior. The Gospel is more than just a  "man" that died for our sins. It wasn't just any man. It wasn't just good old "Yeshua".

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I can't say that God chooses to save people by any other means.

I didn't ask what you can say or what you think God chooses.  I asked, is Jesus unable to save anyone without a preacher and a Bible? 

 

[praise_yeshua]

I can't say that God chooses to save people by any other means.

I didn't ask what you can say or what you think God chooses.  I asked, is Jesus unable to save anyone without a preacher and a Bible?

You Calvinist are so stuck in such logic.... you can't see how irrelevant it is...

God can do as He pleases in ANYTHING. This doesn't mean God does ANY and EVERYTHING.

Is Jesus capable of setting a limit whereby He, Himself, chooses NOT to do something?

The onus is upon you to provide evidence that God saves someone apart from the Scriptures. I told you. The Scriptures are PREACHING.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This whole approach is creating a distinction where there is no difference...Nobody would have denied when Jesus, Paul and others taught about trusting in Jesus as Savior, that the intent would not also be the recognition of His Lordship.  To not teach this is to deny a part of the Gospel...1) what Jesus did (died for our sin) 2) Who Jesus is (Lord of the Universe).  While men may separate these two to make their own doctrine of salvation...the Scripture does not.

Do you teach confessing Jesus as your Lord to be born again?

I know you do.

How can someone accept Jesus Christ for who He is with confessing Him as Lord?

Exactly my point.  Those who fight the "Lordship salvation" are making a distinction where the Bible does not.  The Bible makes it clear...and again I would say when salvation was taught originally in the first century church the thought of separating the two was not even on the radar.

Exactly!

So - every person who didn't confess him as Lord are still dead in their sins?

Now you're trolling. I'll leave you to your game.

No. I am actually quite serious. Yes or No?

See. I would say No. But ... what say you?

What's the difference between saying the words "I confess Jesus Christ as Lord"... .and saying "Lord Jesus, save me"....or "Lord" save me?

You didn't answer the question.

Is every person who did not confess him as Lord at their time of conversion still dead in their sins?

Is a person saved (or can a person be saved) if they do not refer to Jesus Christ as Lord at their time of conversion?

I want to understand your doctrine better. I don't ask people to audibly declare Christ as LORD when I share the gospel. I don't even call him Lord. I call Him God's Son. Jesus Christ died for your sins.

Who else can die for your sins but someone who has power over life? The LORD!

Now - I don't deny his Lordship. I just don't emphasize it in a specific methodical way.

Good grief.

I know what the Scriptures declare. I know what they say. What you're saying.... doesn't line up with the Scriptures. Jesus Christ is Lord

Matthew 22 records a rather interesting argument that Jesus Christ had with the religious crowd of His day. He asked why "David" said these words....

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Do you remember those words? Do you know why they are important? Do you recognize that Jesus, your LORD and MASTER, said this of Himself?

The Jehovah witness believes that Jesus is the son of God. They certainly don't address Him properly.

Do you enjoy being like a Jehovah witness? I recommend you change your attitude/message concerning the Eternal Son of God. The Lord Jesus Christ.

I confessed Jesus as my Lord and Savior. The Gospel is more than just a  "man" that died for our sins. It wasn't just any man. It wasn't just good old "Yeshua".

Sooooo .... you are saying "yes" it appears. Wow. So many people dead in hell. Indeed the way is very narrow - and you just made it even more narrow. Who can be saved? So many who never called him LORD at the time of their conversion. Wow.

I never said Yes. That is your answer. I gave my answer. Its not a YES or NO answer. I'm not the one that matters when it comes to YES or NO. God is.

By the way, just how do you know all these people didn't call upon the Lord? You got a mouse in you pocket somewhere?\


I asked you a few questions. Why don't you answer mine? Do you enjoy preaching the same gospel as the Jehovah Witness? Do you take pleasure in leaving out "Lord" in the referencing your Master?

Do you do this on purpose to prove a point? Are you so narrow minded that you can't change?

 

[biscuit1953]

“In order for verses like John 3:16, John 5:25, Acts 16:31, Romans 4:5, Romans 10:13-14, and others which declare that anyone who believes on Jesus Christ (i.e. puts their faith in him for salvation) shall be saved to be true, God must save a person who is unwilling to turn from sin but believes on Jesus Christ.  If not then God is a liar.”  Steven Anderson

“No one can show me one verse in the Bible that says a person must give up any sins to be saved (or that a person must be willing to give them up).”  Steven Anderson 

Steven Anderson says he hates homosexuals and wants to see them killed also preaches against television, women wearing pants, women working, birth control, not pissing against walls etc.  He can't distinguish sin from silly man-made rules he has made up and what the Bible actually says is sin. 

People who are constantly attacking “lordship salvation” misrepresent it on purpose.  Just like Anderson and Jack Hyles they can't distinguish between “penance” and “repentance.”  Penace is a physical act made to try to atone for sin and is used by the Catholic Church as a sacrament.  Repentance is a work God does in someone's heart that results in a different action and attitude toward sin (Acts 11:17). 

Homosexuals are sinners just like anyone else.  They are to be loved and shown respect along with presenting to them the gospel and those who receive the gospel will agree with God on their behavior.  Those caught up in that lifestyle may struggle with it after salvation just like alcoholics, or those who have had problems with porn, lying, using profanity etc.  The difference is when God changes a person's heart they will act differently because God has changed their hearts instead of continuing to flaunt and revel in those things the Bible clearly condemns. 

I think Erwin Lutzer explained it best at the “Understanding the Times Conference.” 

“So there are those who say we can't preach against homosexuality or mention Islam or anything because we want to win these people to Christ and that's a barrier.  Today grace is offered up front.  Grace is offered to people when they don't even know they need it and whether or not they really care as to whether or not they want it because God loves you 'unconditionally.” 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but there are several different passages in scripture in the Psalms where it says that God says, “I am angry with the wicked every day.”  Certainly, God loves the elect, those who are saved and He loved them, the Bible says from the foundation of the world.  But to throw that out there for everybody to hear – that God loves you unconditionally – is really to water down the seriousness of sin and the real understanding of sin and the real understanding of grace. 

Because you cannot understand grace until you fully understand sin and the better you understand sin the better you will magnify grace.  But we don't have that today in our society.”

 

[subllibrm]

Yes, Jesus uses preaching, etc., as a means.  My question was, is that the ONLY means?  Is Jesus unable to save anyone without a preacher and a Bible?

You didn't ask me specifically but my answer is no. Paul had neither when he was saved on the road to Damascus.

I will concede that this was not / is not the norm but there is no way I am going to make a proclamation that God is unable to save as He sees fit to do so.

 

[subllibrm]

How many of the angels dancing on the head of a pin know how to twerk?

 

[biscuit1953]

Billy Graham was definitely in error when speaking with Robert Schuller.  However, that statement by an aged Graham is not characteristic of his entire ministry and even today his organization teaches that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.  I can think of things I may have said during the past forty years that if captured on camera and played back for all the world to see would be “proof” I have never been saved.  That can probably be said for everyone on this forum.  I don't excuse what Billy Graham said but put it in the right context.  I still think Graham has stated what true repentance is better than anyone else I've heard.

“If your sorrow is because of certain consequences which have come on your family because of your sin, this is remorse, not repentance.  If, on the other hand, you are grieved because you have sinned against God and His holy laws, then you are on the right road.”  Billy Graham

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Yes, Jesus uses preaching, etc., as a means.  My question was, is that the ONLY means?  Is Jesus unable to save anyone without a preacher and a Bible?

You didn't ask me specifically but my answer is no. Paul had neither when he was saved on the road to Damascus.

I will concede that this was not / is not the norm but there is no way I am going to make a proclamation that God is unable to save as He sees fit to do so.

Again, I don't know what Graham was thinking, so I'm not trying to speak for him.  But given that God can and does save without a preacher and Bible, then it is certainly possible that God saves the people Graham was talking about. 

This is not new or liberal thinking.  From Spurgeon:

"But suppose it should be one of those who are living in the interior of Africa, and he does not hear the gospel; what then?" He shall hear the gospel; either he shall come to the gospel, or the gospel shall go to him. Even if no minister should go to such a chosen one, he would have the gospel specially revealed to him rather than that the promise of the Almighty God should be broken.

It is human arrogance to think God cannot or will not save without the help of human intervention. 

 

[Bob H]

This is not new or liberal thinking.  From Spurgeon:

"But suppose it should be one of those who are living in the interior of Africa, and he does not hear the gospel; what then?" He shall hear the gospel; either he shall come to the gospel, or the gospel shall go to him. Even if no minister should go to such a chosen one, he would have the gospel specially revealed to him rather than that the promise of the Almighty God should be broken.

"I have my own opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else"




Charles Spurgeon