Bright Future of Independent Baptists.

[Ransom]

At his coming all people will arise bodily

"Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?" (1 Cor. 15:12)

and give an accounting of their own deeds.

"no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account." (Heb. 4:13)

Those who have done good will enter eternal life,

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,  was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'" (Matt. 25:31-36)

and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'" (Matt. 25:43)

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:44)

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

Yep, at the very least, not believing what the Athanasian Creed says about the triune nature of God makes one an idolator, and idolators cannot be saved.

So where's the heresy?

 

[Jimmyjammer]

At his coming all people will arise bodily

"Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?" (1 Cor. 15:12)

and give an accounting of their own deeds.

"no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account." (Heb. 4:13)

Those who have done good will enter eternal life,

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,  was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'" (Matt. 25:31-36)

and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'" (Matt. 25:43)

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:44)

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

Yep, at the very least, not believing what the Athanasian Creed says about the triune nature of God makes one an idolator, and idolators cannot be saved.

So where's the heresy?

I knew you'd use Matthew 25. You have to use a parable to prove works salvation, which you believe.

You're using a parable about the Great White throne judgment to defend the creed. Athanasius believed in works salvation. That's why he said it.

Actually, he wasn't the one who said it. It was only ascribed to him.



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[FSSL]

He knew you would run to the Bible, Ransom! lol!!

If you have to be accused of heresy, that is a new one on me!

 

[Ransom]

I knew you'd use Matthew 25.

Early Jimmyjammer: [whines] I'm the only one using Scripture to prove my point.

Later Jimmyjammer: [whines] I knew you'd use Scripture to prove your point.

You have to use a parable to prove works salvation, which you believe.

1) When you say I believe works salvation, you're lying.

2) Where does Matthew 25 say Jesus is speaking in parables?

You're using a parable about the Great White throne judgment to defend the creed. Athanasius believed in works salvation. That's why he said it.

Jesus: "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (parable)

Athanasius: "Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire." (not a parable)

I could say, with equal basis in fact--or, rather, more basis in fact--that Athanasius was consciously referencing Jesus' words, and hence means exactly the same thing.

Athanasius believed in works salvation.

Works salvation: the belief that salvation is earned by performing good works.

Can you point out where the Creed says those who have eternal life did so because they did good?

Rather: "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10); and, "Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works" (Jas. 2:18).

Salvation is not the result of good works. Good works are a result of salvation, and an evidence of salvation. Nothing the Creed says contradicts this. Those who receive eternal life are those who have done good.

Maybe you should stick to being vague. When you try to delve into specifics, you're consistently wrong.

 

[Twisted]

It's been over an hour.  Everyone run out of gas?

 

[Jimmyjammer]

I knew you'd use Matthew 25.

Early Jimmyjammer: [whines] I'm the only one using Scripture to prove my point.

Later Jimmyjammer: [whines] I knew you'd use Scripture to prove your point.

You have to use a parable to prove works salvation, which you believe.

1) When you say I believe works salvation, you're lying.

2) Where does Matthew 25 say Jesus is speaking in parables?

You're using a parable about the Great White throne judgment to defend the creed. Athanasius believed in works salvation. That's why he said it.

Jesus: "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (parable)

Athanasius: "Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire." (not a parable)

I could say, with equal basis in fact--or, rather, more basis in fact--that Athanasius was consciously referencing Jesus' words, and hence means exactly the same thing.

Athanasius believed in works salvation.

Works salvation: the belief that salvation is earned by performing good works.

Can you point out where the Creed says those who have eternal life did so because they did good?

Rather: "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10); and, "Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works" (Jas. 2:18).

Salvation is not the result of good works. Good works are a result of salvation, and an evidence of salvation. Nothing the Creed says contradicts this. Those who receive eternal life are those who have done good.

Maybe you should stick to being vague. When you try to delve into specifics, you're consistently wrong.

Yes you believe in works salvation. There are way more creeds back then than you may know. If Athanasia (or whoever wrote it) believed in salvation by faith alone, he was the only one who wrote a creed that didn't agree with Catholic dogma. Read Schaff's Creeds of Christendom.

Matthew 25 is almost completely parables about judgment. The statement provided is no different. Notice that Christ mentions "the King" and not the Son of man.

Works is not proof of salvation.

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Romans:4:2

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans:4:5

You guys who claim that you don't believe in works salvation but go to James 2, don't realize that you are using a back door.

Notice the wording:

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James:2:14

Works profit the brethren. A dead faith but saving faith exists. Otherwise James wouldn't be bringing up something that doesn't exist but then call it faith.

Lot didn't have works, yet the Bible called him "just" and "righteous."

And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2 Peter:2:7
(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
2 Peter:2:8

So you do believe works is required for salvation. It's in your London creed in Perserverence, which is nowhere in scripture.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John:3:18

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John:3:36

Belief (trust) is the only requirement for salvation.

Notice the wording:

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians:1:13

Belief, trust is the gospel of salvation. It does not include perseverance.





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[TheRealJonStewart]

Piss on your doctorate

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Hey Steven Anderson, why don't use your username Sanderson1611?

 

[FSSL]

Since eternal security and perseverance of the saints are correlating theologies.... perhaps we have now learned another truth about Jimmyjammedup

Rejection of the Trinity? Probably. He still hasn?t given us the multiple errors he sees in the Athanasian Creed.

Rejection of Eternal Security? Probably or just theologically inconsistent

Rejection of Baptist thought? Yep. Creating his own history.

Rejection of Fundamentalism? Yes. Emphatically clear he is. All of the other fundamentalists in this forum cheer as he is not one of them.

Acceptance of Liberalism? He doesn?t know it, but he has the same creed.

 

[Ransom]

Yes you believe in works salvation.

And you believe in raping babies to the exact same extent.

There are way more creeds back then than you may know.

We're discussing one in particular. Try to stick to the subject.

Matthew 25 is almost completely parables about judgment.

...he said, without evidence again.

You guys who claim that you don't believe in works salvation but go to James 2, don't realize that you are using a back door.

Since "faith without works is dead" and "I will show you my faith by my works" are both God-breathed Scripture, I will gladly enter through that back door.

So you do believe works is required for salvation.

So you do admit to being a baby rapist.

 

[Ransom]

Hey, remember this bit of windbaggery from earlier in the thread?

Your London creed is also filled with heresy.

Of course, Jimmy was only able to articulate one supposed heresy, which seems a little less impressive than "filled with." It wasn't even that much, since in defining this alleged heresy, he dishonestly conflated repentance with the Roman Catholic doctrine of penance, while omitting the essential differences that distinguish one from the other.

Once he realized he had entered a battle of wits half-armed, Jimmy soiled his jammies, and he couldn't change the subject fast enough. Unfortunately for him, he's no less inept at finding "heresy" in the Athanasian Creed where it basically quotes Jesus but somehow magically means something different from Jesus, because reasons.

Jimmyjammer is the poster boy for why we need creeds and confessions. By defining and clarifying biblical teaching, creeds separate the sheep who believe the truth from the goats who reject it. Is Jimmy a sheep or a goat? It's difficult to tell, because he loves to obfuscate. "No creed but Christ" is squishy latitudinarianism that admits false teaching into the church without accountability.

 

[Jimmyjammer]

You're the one who brought up raping babies to make your point. Only a perverted mind would think of something so vile and reprobate.

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Matthew:12:34

Everytime you made a point, it got wiped a way so fast you had to change the subject. You refused to even admit that your Reformed theology came from Calvin, who got it from Augustine. But that's the modus operandi of someone wanting to hide something.

While destroying your perseverance doctrine with BIBLE, you admitted that you went through the backdoor to works salvation. ADMITTED! (abundance of the heart) So the question remains, If I'm not saved by my works, then am I saved if I don't have the works? Romans 4:5 tells us the answer. So does Ephesians 2:8,9. That's how this doctrine falls apart fast. I didn't even get into the other TULIP doctrines.

And for you fake theologians:

PERSEVE'RANCE, n. [L. perseverantia.  See Persevere.]
1.  Persistence in any thing undertaken; continued pursuit or prosecution of any business or enterprise begun; applied alike to good or evil.
Perseverance keeps honor bright.
Patience and perseverance overcome the greatest difficulties.
2.  In theology, continuance in a state of grace to a state of glory; sometimes called final perseverance.

PRESERVA'TION, n.  The act of preserving or keeping safe; the act of keeping from injury, destruction or decay; as the preservation of life or health; the preservation of buildings from fire or decay; the preservation of grain from insects; the preservation of fruit or plants.  When a thing is kept entirely from decay, or nearly in its original state, we say it is in a high state of preservation.

This is the difference. One man does, the other God does.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians:1:13
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Ephesians:1:14

Who did the sealing? The Holy Spirit. Who perseveres? Man. Which one justifies you before God?

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians:2:16

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1 John:3:4

So what are you hiding? The truth is that most Baptists reject the London confession because of the doctrines borrowed from Calvin. The conflict between the Particulars and the General Baptists is well documented. You can't handle the fact that most Baptists don't use the London creed as a test of Orthodoxy. I'd bet that most Baptist church goers don't even know what it is, much less swear to it (something your friend broke his neck trying to hide).

When pointing out that the repentance conflict came from an uncorrected translational error, you challenged me to back it up. I did, and quite well. That translational error made it into Baptist churches, modern translations, created the mourners bench and the false idea of repentance.

The Latin texts were clearly wrong and everybody knew it was in conflict with the Greek manuscripts. When both of you tried to challenge me on it, you ended up changing the subject. You also accused me of Google translational usage but ended up trying your hand at it yourself and it ended up blowing up on your lap. Doc ended up punching it in and made a fool of himself. I got news for you. You can buy the creeds, written in Greek and Latin with the English interlinear as well as the church fathers writings and pick up a little Latin. BTW, I never claimed that I know Latin. I just know some catch phrases and I can read an interlinear book. I've learned some Greek. Enough to know if someone is trying to pull a fast one, but I wouldn't claim expertise in it.

Why do you really use creeds? To stay safe from heretics? No. The creeds you use are a binding contract. To use iron to sharpen iron and to study to show yourself approved as a test is foreign to you. Because you can't effectively use scripture to defend your positions, you can point to a binding document and say "You are in violation of our oath."

Creeds aren't cute little sayings like the Dr let on. No, they're authoritative for a reason and Rome has used their authority to murder anybody that disagreed with Mariolatry, Purgutorium, and other pagan doctrines and practices. The Ante-Nicene and Post-Nicene creeds DIDN'T stop them from entering their churches. Let that sink in. Seeing your adamancy to dig in on the creedal issue, you would've bought it too, being biblically illiterate.

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[FSSL]

Creeds aren't cute little sayings like the Dr let on.

I just quoted the Bible. God calls them ?trustworthy sayings.? Your inexperience with God?s Word and belittling of His choice of words has been noted.

 

[Jimmyjammer]

Creeds aren't cute little sayings like the Dr let on.

I just quoted the Bible. God calls them ?trustworthy sayings.? Your inexperience with God?s Word and belittling of His choice of words has been noted.

And I showed you what the Bible means by "Faithful sayings." You quoted literally zero.

Just like the rest of the thread, you're showing how much of a fraud you are.

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[FSSL]

Of course they were faithful sayings. Those are not creeds. Your creeds are filled with heresy and you are willing to die on that hill. Hardly a faithful saying.

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^^^ that is neither an intelligent answer nor did you even attempt to explain it biblically.

It?s not a convincing answer.

Just a bunch of boisterous misleading nonsense.

 

[Jimmyjammer]

Of course they were faithful sayings. Those are not creeds. Your creeds are filled with heresy and you are willing to die on that hill. Hardly a faithful saying.

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^^^ that is neither an intelligent answer nor did you even attempt to explain it biblically.

It?s not a convincing answer.

Just a bunch of boisterous misleading nonsense.

Shall I bring the dictionary out again? I bet you had to redo alot of homework in school.

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[FSSL]

I bet your students want a refund.

By now, a sane, intelligent, well-read individual would have seen that they, in fact, did not give the meaning of the phrase as you tell us you imagine.

It?s simple. Study the Bible and learn what it means.

 

[Jimmyjammer]

I bet your students want a refund.

By now, a sane, intelligent, well-read individual would have seen that they, in fact, did not give the meaning of the phrase as you tell us you imagine.

It?s simple. Study the Bible and learn what it means.

That's what I've said the whole time. Learn the Bible, not a creed.

Start being honest.

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[Jimmyjammer]

The next question I have.

Do you reject ANY of the creeds?

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[FSSL]

That's what I've said the whole time. Learn the Bible, not a creed.

Start being honest.

You still have not given us the biblical meaning of ?trustworthy sayings...? You didn?t even know that the phrasing was used by Paul to refer to creeds of his day.

I have learned both creeds and the Bible. I am well-read.

 

[FSSL]

Do you reject ANY of the creeds?

Yep!