Champion Christian College - No surprises here!

[Bruh]

Maybe Eric should ask TTU how their shift to the left went. :-[

I think the TTU shift is apples to oranges with the Champion situation. At TTU, they did try to follow the old path set by Dr Roberson. In fact, the alumni fought any effort to bring changes to the school...no matter how minor they were. Yet, that same alumni base did not support the school financially or any other way that I could see...they were only interested in fighting compromise (which to them was any change).

Outside of Chappell and Sexton, I don't know of any right leaning Bible College that is thriving...and I'm not certain those two are. It just could be that the Bible College model, to train IFBs to work in IFB ministry is not viable today.

I think these new IFB's simply see this and like all other generations before them know that change is simply a part of life. The problem is that to the IFB old paths, old guard any change is compromise. That's the view from where I stand, at least.

Or it might make me think of what my mother used to say: "If everyone else jumps off a cliff,  does that mean that you have to follow them?

Depends.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Maybe Eric should ask TTU how their shift to the left went. :-[

I think the TTU shift is apples to oranges with the Champion situation. At TTU, they did try to follow the old path set by Dr Roberson. In fact, the alumni fought any effort to bring changes to the school...no matter how minor they were. Yet, that same alumni base did not support the school financially or any other way that I could see...they were only interested in fighting compromise (which to them was any change).

Outside of Chappell and Sexton, I don't know of any right leaning Bible College that is thriving...and I'm not certain those two are. It just could be that the Bible College model, to train IFBs to work in IFB ministry is not viable today.

I think these new IFB's simply see this and like all other generations before them know that change is simply a part of life. The problem is that to the IFB old paths, old guard any change is compromise. That's the view from where I stand, at least.

Or it might make me think of what my mother used to say: "If everyone else jumps off a cliff,  does that mean that you have to follow them?

If you equate changing methods and methodology with jumping of a cliff, I guess that's an analogy. But, back to my point, the guys standing on the cliff in the middle of the old paths aren't exactly thriving, either.

Now, if the guy at Champion had renounced the virgin birth, I could see your point. But he took Baptist off the sign. Will you and Raider be upset when Hyles
Anderson Baptist College does the same? ? 

It is really hard for me to understand how you, Tom and Raider define fundamental, although I acknowledge the difference. But, I just don't see KJVO! pants, and Baptist on the mast head as fundamentals of the faith.

 

[bgwilkinson]

KJVO, women's dress and the Baptist name are NOT  fundamentals of the faith, the virgin birth absolutely.

This happens when people over the years have had a sliding definition of fundamentalist.

The fundamentalists of the early 20th century would be very surprised at the new old path people who think they are old path people but are not.

 

[Fresh Air]

It is really hard for me to understand how you, Tom and Raider define fundamental, although I acknowledge the difference. But, I just don't see KJVO! pants, and Baptist on the mast head as fundamentals of the faith.

I don't think you are intentionally misreading what I have posted but I cannot see any other way you can write that sentence above. Fundamentalism is a combination of three things - orthodoxy, militancy, and separatism. I can furnish you with a dozen fundamentalist historian's quotes to that effect. That is what I believe. It is what I have repeatedly maintained. What in the world about that do you not get?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

It is really hard for me to understand how you, Tom and Raider define fundamental, although I acknowledge the difference. But, I just don't see KJVO! pants, and Baptist on the mast head as fundamentals of the faith.

I don't think you are intentionally misreading what I have posted but I cannot see any other way you can write that sentence above. Fundamentalism is a combination of three things - orthodoxy, militancy, and separatism. I can furnish you with a dozen fundamentalist historian's quotes to that effect. That is what I believe. It is what I have repeatedly maintained. What in the world about that do you not get?

Tom, we've gone around this bend before.
I know what you are saying, but have not and do not see the rationale behind how some define a fundamentalist. In the modernist fundamentalist controversy, separation was based on orthodoxy. And militancy is, in essence, one's attitude as he separates. I have read George Dollar's book and he postulates that separation should be on 'standards'....not biblical standards, but personal conduct. Which I would hardly call grounds to determine a fundamentalist.

Perhaps you could site some sources for your position, I'd be interested in who and when that position came to be....

While I don't understand the way you define fundamentalist, I cede your right to do so....but surely you can understand my confusion. As I have stated before, I have been in the movement most of my life and with 2 exceptions did not encounter over emphasis on a code of conduct as a basis for fellowship and being listed as a fundamentalist. And when I encountered those two exceptions, I was very young and simply went along to get along, until I could get away from them. ?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

KJVO, women's dress and the Baptist name are NOT  fundamentals of the faith, the virgin birth absolutely.

This happens when people over the years have had a sliding definition of fundamentalist.

The fundamentalists of the early 20th century would be very surprised at the new old path people who think they are old path people but are not.

My position as well.

 

[RAIDER]

Now, if the guy at Champion had renounced the virgin birth, I could see your point. But he took Baptist off the sign. Will you and Raider be upset when Hyles
Anderson Baptist College does the same? ? 

Hyles-Anderson never had the name "Baptist" in the name.  Having it already in the name and removing it speaks volumes.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Now, if the guy at Champion had renounced the virgin birth, I could see your point. But he took Baptist off the sign. Will you and Raider be upset when Hyles
Anderson Baptist College does the same? ? 

Hyles-Anderson never had the name "Baptist" in the name.  Having it already in the name and removing it speaks volumes.

I'm trying to understand your logic.
Am I correct in the following:
Hyles Anderson did not have Baptist in their name and that's perfectly all right.
Champion Baptist College removed Baptisr from their name....putting them into the same 'name category' as Hyles Anderson, but they are wrong and HA is ok?

 

[RAIDER]

Now, if the guy at Champion had renounced the virgin birth, I could see your point. But he took Baptist off the sign. Will you and Raider be upset when Hyles
Anderson Baptist College does the same? ? 

Hyles-Anderson never had the name "Baptist" in the name.  Having it already in the name and removing it speaks volumes.

I'm trying to understand your logic.
Am I correct in the following:
Hyles Anderson did not have Baptist in their name and that's perfectly all right.
Champion Baptist College removed Baptisr from their name....putting them into the same 'name category' as Hyles Anderson, but they are wrong and HA is ok?

Hyles-Anderson was a IFB college from its inception.  No, they did not have "Baptist" in their name.  Today, they are still an IFB college.  Champion Baptist College was an IFB college from its inception.  They removed "Baptist" from their name because they no longer want to be an IFB college.  What is so hard to understand about that?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Now, if the guy at Champion had renounced the virgin birth, I could see your point. But he took Baptist off the sign. Will you and Raider be upset when Hyles
Anderson Baptist College does the same? ? 

Hyles-Anderson never had the name "Baptist" in the name.  Having it already in the name and removing it speaks volumes.

I'm trying to understand your logic.
Am I correct in the following:
Hyles Anderson did not have Baptist in their name and that's perfectly all right.
Champion Baptist College removed Baptisr from their name....putting them into the same 'name category' as Hyles Anderson, but they are wrong and HA is ok?

Hyles-Anderson was a IFB college from its inception.  No, they did not have "Baptist" in their name.  Today, they are still an IFB college.  Champion Baptist College was an IFB college from its inception.  They removed "Baptist" from their name because they no longer want to be an IFB college.  What is so hard to understand about that?

I did not understand that the name change reflected any doctrinal change.
If it did, your point is taken.

 

[sword]

Now, if the guy at Champion had renounced the virgin birth, I could see your point. But he took Baptist off the sign. Will you and Raider be upset when Hyles
Anderson Baptist College does the same? ? 

Hyles-Anderson never had the name "Baptist" in the name.  Having it already in the name and removing it speaks volumes.

I'm trying to understand your logic.
Am I correct in the following:
Hyles Anderson did not have Baptist in their name and that's perfectly all right.
Champion Baptist College removed Baptisr from their name....putting them into the same 'name category' as Hyles Anderson, but they are wrong and HA is ok?

Hyles-Anderson was a IFB college from its inception.  No, they did not have "Baptist" in their name.  Today, they are still an IFB college.  Champion Baptist College was an IFB college from its inception.  They removed "Baptist" from their name because they no longer want to be an IFB college.  What is so hard to understand about that?

I did not understand that the name change reflected any doctrinal change.
If it did, your point is taken.

If I recall in the early days HAC had many students from other denominations as did pastors school. In the 70 and early 80's the lines were not as drawn regarding brand, but by belief.

I always wondered if Baptist was left out of the HAC name for the purpose of expanding the net. I am very sure if the college had been started in the late 80's or after the name would have included Baptist in bold black letters.

 

[sword]

Why do you suppose Champion has decided to remove the Baptist name?

I have no issue with the name change but would have huge concerns if Capaci publicly stated he no longer wanted to be considered a Baptist. If he removed Baptist from Gospel Light Baptist Church that would be a much bigger issue to me as well. PCC, TT, BJU, Cederville and many of the older schools did not include Baptist in their name. BJU for obvious reasons. It was just not an issue then.

If anyone has insite on the reason for the change that would be helpful. I suspect it's all about marketing. Just ask PCC how that's working out for them and their school materials (Abeka).

 

 

[RAIDER]

Why do you suppose Champion has decided to remove the Baptist name?

I have no issue with the name change but would have huge concerns if Capaci publicly stated he no longer wanted to be considered a Baptist. If he removed Baptist from Gospel Light Baptist Church that would be a much bigger issue to me as well. PCC, TT, BJU, Cederville and many of the older schools did not include Baptist in their name. BJU for obvious reasons. It was just not an issue then.

If anyone has insite on the reason for the change that would be helpful. I suspect it's all about marketing. Just ask PCC how that's working out for them and their school materials (Abeka).

Here is part of the OP.

Today?s Champion Christian College was first established as Champion Baptist College in 2005 in affiliation with Gospel Light Baptist Church. High-energy CCC President and GLBC Pastor Eric Capaci?s vision for the school has been a persistent driving force for it?s initial inception and continuing development. Transitions in the last couple of years include a partnership with Central Baptist College in Conway that provides the benefit of accreditation for some of the course offerings and a name change from Champion Baptist College to Champion Christian College that removed the Baptist denominational label.  That name change potentially alienates some Baptists, but on the flip-side serves to welcome faculty, staff, and students who are Christian of other denominations, as well as others who embrace no denominational identity. Today the college?s faculty, staff, and student body reflects that increased diversity. The school also enjoys the involvement of a number of local government officials, business and professional leaders, and other community leaders who serve on an advisory council. The college is also currently engaged in the somewhat tedious process of seeking full accreditation through the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS).

 

[Jim Jones]

Why do you suppose Champion has decided to remove the Baptist name?

I have no issue with the name change but would have huge concerns if Capaci publicly stated he no longer wanted to be considered a Baptist. If he removed Baptist from Gospel Light Baptist Church that would be a much bigger issue to me as well. PCC, TT, BJU, Cederville and many of the older schools did not include Baptist in their name. BJU for obvious reasons. It was just not an issue then.

If anyone has insite on the reason for the change that would be helpful. I suspect it's all about marketing. Just ask PCC how that's working out for them and their school materials (Abeka).

Here is part of the OP.

Today?s Champion Christian College was first established as Champion Baptist College in 2005 in affiliation with Gospel Light Baptist Church. High-energy CCC President and GLBC Pastor Eric Capaci?s vision for the school has been a persistent driving force for it?s initial inception and continuing development. Transitions in the last couple of years include a partnership with Central Baptist College in Conway that provides the benefit of accreditation for some of the course offerings and a name change from Champion Baptist College to Champion Christian College that removed the Baptist denominational label.  That name change potentially alienates some Baptists, but on the flip-side serves to welcome faculty, staff, and students who are Christian of other denominations, as well as others who embrace no denominational identity. Today the college?s faculty, staff, and student body reflects that increased diversity. The school also enjoys the involvement of a number of local government officials, business and professional leaders, and other community leaders who serve on an advisory council. The college is also currently engaged in the somewhat tedious process of seeking full accreditation through the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS).

Apparently his version of INDEPENDENT is being too independent.

Being a part of the HAC independent only includes being dependent to HAC lackies.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Why do you suppose Champion has decided to remove the Baptist name?

I have no issue with the name change but would have huge concerns if Capaci publicly stated he no longer wanted to be considered a Baptist. If he removed Baptist from Gospel Light Baptist Church that would be a much bigger issue to me as well. PCC, TT, BJU, Cederville and many of the older schools did not include Baptist in their name. BJU for obvious reasons. It was just not an issue then.

If anyone has insite on the reason for the change that would be helpful. I suspect it's all about marketing. Just ask PCC how that's working out for them and their school materials (Abeka).

Here is part of the OP.

Today?s Champion Christian College was first established as Champion Baptist College in 2005 in affiliation with Gospel Light Baptist Church. High-energy CCC President and GLBC Pastor Eric Capaci?s vision for the school has been a persistent driving force for it?s initial inception and continuing development. Transitions in the last couple of years include a partnership with Central Baptist College in Conway that provides the benefit of accreditation for some of the course offerings and a name change from Champion Baptist College to Champion Christian College that removed the Baptist denominational label.  That name change potentially alienates some Baptists, but on the flip-side serves to welcome faculty, staff, and students who are Christian of other denominations, as well as others who embrace no denominational identity. Today the college?s faculty, staff, and student body reflects that increased diversity. The school also enjoys the involvement of a number of local government officials, business and professional leaders, and other community leaders who serve on an advisory council. The college is also currently engaged in the somewhat tedious process of seeking full accreditation through the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS).

Do you believe/assume that the name change requires a change in doctrine?
Or as I assume, it is as others here have stated, simply an attempt to broaden their base in recruiting students. Which appears to be part of the reason for Hyles-Anderson's denominationally generic name.

And if the criticism is that he desires to gain more students why is that bad/wrong IF he compromises no orthodox stand to do so?
And, I would point out, the capital B militant Baptist schools also struggle with lower enrollment and financial cuts.

 

[IFB X-Files]

... it is as others here have stated, simply an attempt to broaden their base in recruiting students. Which appears to be part of the reason for Hyles-Anderson's denominationally generic name.

I would always chuckle when I'd see those Church of Christ, Methodist and Assembly of God kids walking the halls with that stunned look on their face, asking themselves "What happened?".

In fact wasn't RAIDER a snake-handling Pentecostal when he first arrived?

 

[RAIDER]

Do you believe/assume that the name change requires a change in doctrine?
Or as I assume, it is as others here have stated, simply an attempt to broaden their base in recruiting students. Which appears to be part of the reason for Hyles-Anderson's denominationally generic name.

And if the criticism is that he desires to gain more students why is that bad/wrong IF he compromises no orthodox stand to do so?
And, I would point out, the capital B militant Baptist schools also struggle with lower enrollment and financial cuts.

I do not believe the name Hyles-Anderson was given to the college to bring students from other denominations.  As far as I know, Hyles-Anderson has never attempted to bring in students that were not Baptist.

I am not implying that Capaci has denied the fundamentals of the faith.  No where have I implied that.  He advertised Champion Baptist College as an IFB college.  There were standards of behavior and appearance set.  Many IFB sent their young people to Champion based on this.  Without notifying any parents or pastors Capaci began to implement changes.  These changes began to accelerate. 

I'm not asking you to agree or not agree with the changes.  I am just pointing them out.  They have gone to praise and worship music including a praise and worship team.  They push contemporary music.  They now have drums and guitars during the service.  They play girl's volleyball against teams that wear the tight short shorts (including in their gym).  They no longer require their teachers or students to wear modest skirts and dresses.  They have preachers from other denominations speaking to their students.

At least he is now being honest enough to publish and announce his direction.  They have a right to go whatever direction they choose.  Many on the FFF would applaud the direction Capaci is going.  All I'm doing is pointing it out.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

... it is as others here have stated, simply an attempt to broaden their base in recruiting students. Which appears to be part of the reason for Hyles-Anderson's denominationally generic name.

I would always chuckle when I'd see those Church of Christ, Methodist and Assembly of God kids walking the halls with that stunned look on their face, asking themselves "What happened?".

In fact wasn't RAIDER a snake-handling Pentecostal when he first arrived?

I did not make an assertion that was the case, but others did....so that those who were not Baptist....who attended Pastors School....might send some students to HA. I would also say that not many Church of Christ, Methodist or Pentecostal churches would attend the school in Arkansas, either.

And I suspect RAIDER was then as he is now, a true blue Baptist believer.
No insult intended. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Do you believe/assume that the name change requires a change in doctrine?
Or as I assume, it is as others here have stated, simply an attempt to broaden their base in recruiting students. Which appears to be part of the reason for Hyles-Anderson's denominationally generic name.

And if the criticism is that he desires to gain more students why is that bad/wrong IF he compromises no orthodox stand to do so?
And, I would point out, the capital B militant Baptist schools also struggle with lower enrollment and financial cuts.

I do not believe the name Hyles-Anderson was given to the college to bring students from other denominations.  As far as I know, Hyles-Anderson has never attempted to bring in students that were not Baptist.

I am not implying that Capaci has denied the fundamentals of the faith.  No where have I implied that.  He advertised Champion Baptist College as an IFB college.  There were standards of behavior and appearance set.  Many IFB sent their young people to Champion based on this.  Without notifying any parents or pastors Capaci began to implement changes.  These changes began to accelerate. 

I'm not asking you to agree or not agree with the changes.  I am just pointing them out.  They have gone to praise and worship music including a praise and worship team.  They push contemporary music.  They now have drums and guitars during the service.  They play girl's volleyball against teams that wear the tight short shorts (including in their gym).  They no longer require their teachers or students to wear modest skirts and dresses.  They have preachers from other denominations speaking to their students.

At least he is now being honest enough to publish and announce his direction.  They have a right to go whatever direction they choose.  Many on the FFF would applaud the direction Capaci is going.  All I'm doing is pointing it out.

I was asking IF you were assuming the doctrine had changed, not stating that you did.....but your ^^^ post gives clarification to your position. You believe he has moved to compromise on standards and militant separation....reflected by a praise team and allowing non-baptists to preach. By no longer require modest skirts and dresses, do you mean they allow ladies to wear pants?

I cede your right to hold your position and understand your position, if you clarify about the pants. One man's compromise is another man's common sense....at least in the fff world. 

 

[RAIDER]

I do not believe the name Hyles-Anderson was given to the college to bring students from other denominations.  As far as I know, Hyles-Anderson has never attempted to bring in students that were not Baptist.

I am not implying that Capaci has denied the fundamentals of the faith.  No where have I implied that.  He advertised Champion Baptist College as an IFB college.  There were standards of behavior and appearance set.  Many IFB sent their young people to Champion based on this.  Without notifying any parents or pastors Capaci began to implement changes.  These changes began to accelerate. 

I'm not asking you to agree or not agree with the changes.  I am just pointing them out.  They have gone to praise and worship music including a praise and worship team.  They push contemporary music.  They now have drums and guitars during the service.  They play girl's volleyball against teams that wear the tight short shorts (including in their gym).  They no longer require their teachers or students to wear modest skirts and dresses.  They have preachers from other denominations speaking to their students.

At least he is now being honest enough to publish and announce his direction.  They have a right to go whatever direction they choose.  Many on the FFF would applaud the direction Capaci is going.  All I'm doing is pointing it out.

I was asking IF you were assuming the doctrine had changed, not stating that you did.....but your ^^^ post gives clarification to your position. You believe he has moved to compromise on standards and militant separation....reflected by a praise team and allowing non-baptists to preach. By no longer require modest skirts and dresses, do you mean they allow ladies to wear pants?

I cede your right to hold your position and understand your position, if you clarify about the pants. One man's compromise is another man's common sense....at least in the fff world. 

In my OP I posted the announcement from Champion.  This thread was started to discuss the change.  I just listed the changes of which I am aware.  The doctrine of virgin birth, salvation by grace through faith, etc have not changed.  The standards that they enforced and held to a very few years ago have changed.  Yes, they now allow teachers and students to wear pants. 

Parents that sent their children to Champion thought they were sending their children to the college that was presented to them.  If Capaci had come out 5 years ago and notified parents that this was the direction he wanted to go, the parents and students could have made an informed decision.  He did not.  Now that it is obvious to anyone who steps foot on the property, he is making the announcement.