Christian leaders with no scars is the problem?

[Tarheel Baptist]

Either way. Neither you nor rsca are Evangelical. You reject the very core if its teaching and rsca runs around crying "victory" while abandoning a focus on Christ paying the penalty for our sins.

I can't speak for rsc2a but you are correct about me. I do attend an evangelical church but I no longer consider myself evangelical in belief or practice. That, however, does not negate the last two decades where my beliefs and practices toed the evangelical line nor does it negate the two decades before that where I was an overly-strict fundamental Baptist. Hence, my perception of both the fundamentalists and evangelicals comes from my years of experience in those realms.

Are you saying that your perception has greater credibility because you've rejected what you once practiced....twice?  I reject polygamy and  human sacrifice....but confess I've never believed or practiced either. I also reject the liberal guilt trip because I've not taken a vow of poverty.....

I'm saying I do have more credibility based on my past personal human experience than would an outsider who only understood from what he has perhaps read or heard about. Not saying one should not form an opinion based on those things but rather that in a sub-culture, things are more intimately understood by those who have been entrenched at one point or another than those on the outside looking in.

From my limited perspective, I come to the opposite conclusion...you've rejected what you've practiced...twice!  Makes you more of an expert on vacillating....

What you consider vacillating, I consider metamorphosis...

I think that should be metamorphoses....

 

[SaviorSelf]

Totally agree, Christian leaders need scars, preferably vertically across the eyebrows. Physical cues of battle and triumph is absolutely essential to commanding respect.

 

[Mathew Ward]

The problem with a theme of fighting is that Christians fight more among themselves then with anyone else.

And this shall all men know you are my disciples if you go out and fight with the world.

Who did Christ fight with? The corrupt Roman government and culture? I think not. He fight with the legalists and corruptors of the Jewish religion. He affiliated himself with the sinners in order to minister in love and grace.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

The problem with a theme of fighting is that Christians fight more among themselves then with anyone else.

And this shall all men know you are my disciples if you go out and fight with the world.

Who did Christ fight with? The corrupt Roman government and culture? I think not. He fight with the legalists and corruptors of the Jewish religion. He affiliated himself with the sinners in order to minister in love and grace.

How Niemoller of you....

 

[Mathew Ward]

The problem with a theme of fighting is that Christians fight more among themselves then with anyone else.

And this shall all men know you are my disciples if you go out and fight with the world.

Who did Christ fight with? The corrupt Roman government and culture? I think not. He fight with the legalists and corruptors of the Jewish religion. He affiliated himself with the sinners in order to minister in love and grace.

How Niemoller of you....

Never heard or read of him.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

The problem with a theme of fighting is that Christians fight more among themselves then with anyone else.

And this shall all men know you are my disciples if you go out and fight with the world.

Who did Christ fight with? The corrupt Roman government and culture? I think not. He fight with the legalists and corruptors of the Jewish religion. He affiliated himself with the sinners in order to minister in love and grace.

How Niemoller of you....

Never heard or read of him.

He's probably not familiar with you either. 

 

[Matthew1323]

Its is very rare that you find anyone that will do much of anything that's not in their "own self interest". If they do, their actions are often planned or used as a cloak of "righteousness" to justify the "end game".

Life would be sad, discouraging, and miserable for me too, if I shared your stated outlook concerning "others."

I would be naive, inexperienced, and immature too, if I shared your stated outlook concerning "others."

For the record. I'm not sad at all. Let me share a few words Our Master spoke of mankind.

Joh 2:23  Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
Joh 2:24  But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
Joh 2:25  And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Jesus found that 11 out of the 12 that he chose to spend his time with turned out to be pretty decent individuals. Maybe if you find new friends and associates your perspective concerning others would be different.

 

[sword]

The problem with a theme of fighting is that Christians fight more among themselves then with anyone else.

And this shall all men know you are my disciples if you go out and fight with the world.

Who did Christ fight with? The corrupt Roman government and culture? I think not. He fight with the legalists and corruptors of the Jewish religion. He affiliated himself with the sinners in order to minister in love and grace.

How Niemoller of you....

Never heard or read of him.

He's probably not familiar with you either. 

I suppose I'm too slow to understand the "Niemoller" reference.

I do believe in giving honor where honor is do. It takes great courage to stand alone against tyranny.

Martin Niemöller (1892-1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps.

Niemöller is perhaps best remembered for the quotation:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

[Mathew Ward]

The problem with a theme of fighting is that Christians fight more among themselves then with anyone else.

And this shall all men know you are my disciples if you go out and fight with the world.

Who did Christ fight with? The corrupt Roman government and culture? I think not. He fight with the legalists and corruptors of the Jewish religion. He affiliated himself with the sinners in order to minister in love and grace.

How Niemoller of you....

Never heard or read of him.

He's probably not familiar with you either. 

No doubt.

However is God sovereign? Does He set up governments and kingdoms and tear them down?

When Jesus came to earth did He choose when that would happen with the government and kingdom?

Was it a very moral and pleasing to God kingdom?

Where was Christ's moral outrage at the government?

I find where he pays tribute as to not offend them, but never his outrage at their corrupt kingdom.

Of course the theme of his life and what he taught his followers was to cry out against a corrupt government. (tongue-in-cheek)

He did teach in His word that we pray for and be thankful for our leaders in these governments that we may live a peaceful life?


How about if the world understood more of what we are for then what we are against?

I know you get this because of all the wonderful, loving ways in which the church you pastor interacts with your community.

 

[BALAAM]

The problem with a theme of fighting is that Christians fight more among themselves then with anyone else.

And this shall all men know you are my disciples if you go out and fight with the world.

Who did Christ fight with? The corrupt Roman government and culture? I think not. He fight with the legalists and corruptors of the Jewish religion. He affiliated himself with the sinners in order to minister in love and grace.

How Niemoller of you....

Never heard or read of him.

He's probably not familiar with you either. 

I suppose I'm too slow to understand the "Niemoller" reference.

I do believe in giving honor where honor is do. It takes great courage to stand alone against tyranny.

Martin Niemöller (1892-1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps.

Niemöller is perhaps best remembered for the quotation:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

I am reading Bonhoeffer right now. A contemporary of Niemoller I would presume.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

The problem with a theme of fighting is that Christians fight more among themselves then with anyone else.

And this shall all men know you are my disciples if you go out and fight with the world.

Who did Christ fight with? The corrupt Roman government and culture? I think not. He fight with the legalists and corruptors of the Jewish religion. He affiliated himself with the sinners in order to minister in love and grace.

How Niemoller of you....

Never heard or read of him.

He's probably not familiar with you either. 

I suppose I'm too slow to understand the "Niemoller" reference.

I do believe in giving honor where honor is do. It takes great courage to stand alone against tyranny.

Martin Niemöller (1892-1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps.

Niemöller is perhaps best remembered for the quotation:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

I am reading Bonhoeffer right now. A contemporary of Niemoller I would presume.

Evidently, neither of them believed in the Sovereignty of God
...according to the logic of some here.

 

[Mathew Ward]

The problem with a theme of fighting is that Christians fight more among themselves then with anyone else.

And this shall all men know you are my disciples if you go out and fight with the world.

Who did Christ fight with? The corrupt Roman government and culture? I think not. He fight with the legalists and corruptors of the Jewish religion. He affiliated himself with the sinners in order to minister in love and grace.

How Niemoller of you....

Never heard or read of him.

He's probably not familiar with you either. 

I suppose I'm too slow to understand the "Niemoller" reference.

I do believe in giving honor where honor is do. It takes great courage to stand alone against tyranny.

Martin Niemöller (1892-1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps.

Niemöller is perhaps best remembered for the quotation:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

I am reading Bonhoeffer right now. A contemporary of Niemoller I would presume.

Evidently, neither of them believed in the Sovereignty of God
...according to the logic of some here.

Although you can answer the questions directly asked of you. In case you missed them  ;D

However is God sovereign? Does He set up governments and kingdoms and tear them down?

When Jesus came to earth did He choose when that would happen with the government and kingdom?

Was it a very moral and pleasing to God kingdom?

Where was Christ's moral outrage at the government?

I find where he pays tribute as to not offend them, but never his outrage at their corrupt kingdom.

Of course the theme of his life and what he taught his followers was to cry out against a corrupt government. (tongue-in-cheek)

He did teach in His word that we pray for and be thankful for our leaders in these governments that we may live a peaceful life?


How about if the world understood more of what we are for then what we are against?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

The problem with a theme of fighting is that Christians fight more among themselves then with anyone else.

And this shall all men know you are my disciples if you go out and fight with the world.

Who did Christ fight with? The corrupt Roman government and culture? I think not. He fight with the legalists and corruptors of the Jewish religion. He affiliated himself with the sinners in order to minister in love and grace.

How Niemoller of you....

Never heard or read of him.

He's probably not familiar with you either. 

I suppose I'm too slow to understand the "Niemoller" reference.

I do believe in giving honor where honor is do. It takes great courage to stand alone against tyranny.

Martin Niemöller (1892-1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps.

Niemöller is perhaps best remembered for the quotation:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

I am reading Bonhoeffer right now. A contemporary of Niemoller I would presume.

Evidently, neither of them believed in the Sovereignty of God
...according to the logic of some here.

Although you can answer the questions directly asked of you. In case you missed them  ;D

However is God sovereign? Does He set up governments and kingdoms and tear them down?

When Jesus came to earth did He choose when that would happen with the government and kingdom?

Was it a very moral and pleasing to God kingdom?

Where was Christ's moral outrage at the government?

I find where he pays tribute as to not offend them, but never his outrage at their corrupt kingdom.

Of course the theme of his life and what he taught his followers was to cry out against a corrupt government. (tongue-in-cheek)

He did teach in His word that we pray for and be thankful for our leaders in these governments that we may live a peaceful life?


How about if the world understood more of what we are for then what we are against?

I don't know how the world views you, but our church is known for many things, things we're for and thing's we're against.
I'm a 5 point Calvinist, not an easy believism b*aptist, but I'm not a fatalist!
I can pray for those in authority over me at the same time oppose their policies...what about you?  :

 

[Mathew Ward]

The problem with a theme of fighting is that Christians fight more among themselves then with anyone else.

And this shall all men know you are my disciples if you go out and fight with the world.

Who did Christ fight with? The corrupt Roman government and culture? I think not. He fight with the legalists and corruptors of the Jewish religion. He affiliated himself with the sinners in order to minister in love and grace.

How Niemoller of you....

Never heard or read of him.

He's probably not familiar with you either. 

I suppose I'm too slow to understand the "Niemoller" reference.

I do believe in giving honor where honor is do. It takes great courage to stand alone against tyranny.

Martin Niemöller (1892-1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps.

Niemöller is perhaps best remembered for the quotation:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

I am reading Bonhoeffer right now. A contemporary of Niemoller I would presume.

Evidently, neither of them believed in the Sovereignty of God
...according to the logic of some here.

Although you can answer the questions directly asked of you. In case you missed them  ;D

However is God sovereign? Does He set up governments and kingdoms and tear them down?

When Jesus came to earth did He choose when that would happen with the government and kingdom?

Was it a very moral and pleasing to God kingdom?

Where was Christ's moral outrage at the government?

I find where he pays tribute as to not offend them, but never his outrage at their corrupt kingdom.

Of course the theme of his life and what he taught his followers was to cry out against a corrupt government. (tongue-in-cheek)

He did teach in His word that we pray for and be thankful for our leaders in these governments that we may live a peaceful life?


How about if the world understood more of what we are for then what we are against?

I don't know how the world views you, but our church is known for many things, things we're for and thing's we're against.
I'm a 5 point Calvinist, not an easy believism b*aptist, but I'm not a fatalist!
I can pray for those in authority over me at the same time oppose their policies...what about you?  :

Of course I can, and do.

However the point of your thread is that Christian leaders without scars...how did Jesus line up to that premise is my point.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

The problem with a theme of fighting is that Christians fight more among themselves then with anyone else.

And this shall all men know you are my disciples if you go out and fight with the world.

Who did Christ fight with? The corrupt Roman government and culture? I think not. He fight with the legalists and corruptors of the Jewish religion. He affiliated himself with the sinners in order to minister in love and grace.

How Niemoller of you....

Never heard or read of him.

He's probably not familiar with you either. 

I suppose I'm too slow to understand the "Niemoller" reference.

I do believe in giving honor where honor is do. It takes great courage to stand alone against tyranny.

Martin Niemöller (1892-1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps.

Niemöller is perhaps best remembered for the quotation:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

I am reading Bonhoeffer right now. A contemporary of Niemoller I would presume.

Evidently, neither of them believed in the Sovereignty of God
...according to the logic of some here.

Although you can answer the questions directly asked of you. In case you missed them  ;D

However is God sovereign? Does He set up governments and kingdoms and tear them down?

When Jesus came to earth did He choose when that would happen with the government and kingdom?

Was it a very moral and pleasing to God kingdom?

Where was Christ's moral outrage at the government?

I find where he pays tribute as to not offend them, but never his outrage at their corrupt kingdom.

Of course the theme of his life and what he taught his followers was to cry out against a corrupt government. (tongue-in-cheek)

He did teach in His word that we pray for and be thankful for our leaders in these governments that we may live a peaceful life?


How about if the world understood more of what we are for then what we are against?

I don't know how the world views you, but our church is known for many things, things we're for and thing's we're against.
I'm a 5 point Calvinist, not an easy believism b*aptist, but I'm not a fatalist!
I can pray for those in authority over me at the same time oppose their policies...what about you?  :

Of course I can, and do.

However the point of your thread is that Christian leaders without scars...how did Jesus line up to that premise is my point.

Did you read the article?
There is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with Christians taking on these issues in public debate. Christian leaders who demean those who do are misguided at best.....cowardly and approval whores at worst. There is NOTHING wrong with calling abortion murder or homosexuality sinful/immoral behavior.

All of your double talk aside, there is nothing Biblically or morally wrong with having a little backbone and a Biblical standard. Give it a shot....

 

[Mathew Ward]

The problem with a theme of fighting is that Christians fight more among themselves then with anyone else.

And this shall all men know you are my disciples if you go out and fight with the world.

Who did Christ fight with? The corrupt Roman government and culture? I think not. He fight with the legalists and corruptors of the Jewish religion. He affiliated himself with the sinners in order to minister in love and grace.

How Niemoller of you....

Never heard or read of him.

He's probably not familiar with you either. 

I suppose I'm too slow to understand the "Niemoller" reference.

I do believe in giving honor where honor is do. It takes great courage to stand alone against tyranny.

Martin Niemöller (1892-1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps.

Niemöller is perhaps best remembered for the quotation:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

I am reading Bonhoeffer right now. A contemporary of Niemoller I would presume.

Evidently, neither of them believed in the Sovereignty of God
...according to the logic of some here.

Although you can answer the questions directly asked of you. In case you missed them  ;D

However is God sovereign? Does He set up governments and kingdoms and tear them down?

When Jesus came to earth did He choose when that would happen with the government and kingdom?

Was it a very moral and pleasing to God kingdom?

Where was Christ's moral outrage at the government?

I find where he pays tribute as to not offend them, but never his outrage at their corrupt kingdom.

Of course the theme of his life and what he taught his followers was to cry out against a corrupt government. (tongue-in-cheek)

He did teach in His word that we pray for and be thankful for our leaders in these governments that we may live a peaceful life?


How about if the world understood more of what we are for then what we are against?

I don't know how the world views you, but our church is known for many things, things we're for and thing's we're against.
I'm a 5 point Calvinist, not an easy believism b*aptist, but I'm not a fatalist!
I can pray for those in authority over me at the same time oppose their policies...what about you?  :

Of course I can, and do.

However the point of your thread is that Christian leaders without scars...how did Jesus line up to that premise is my point.

Did you read the article?
There is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with Christians taking on these issues in public debate. Christian leaders who demean those who do are misguided at best.....cowardly and approval whores at worst. There is NOTHING wrong with calling abortion murder or homosexuality sinful/immoral behavior.

All of your double talk aside, there is nothing Biblically or morally wrong with having a little backbone and a Biblical standard. Give it a shot....

I did read the article.

How does Jesus line up against the premise of the article?

Would he be considered a leader without scars according to the article?

Who did Jesus fight with? The homosexuals? Or was it with the Scribes and Pharisees? Was it the sinners?

Seems your double talk is avoiding of answering the question about Christ in relation to the article.

On a side note I have plenty of Biblical standards, going around denouncing anyone (unsaved) that doesn't hold to them doesn't make me spiritual.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

The problem with a theme of fighting is that Christians fight more among themselves then with anyone else.

And this shall all men know you are my disciples if you go out and fight with the world.

Who did Christ fight with? The corrupt Roman government and culture? I think not. He fight with the legalists and corruptors of the Jewish religion. He affiliated himself with the sinners in order to minister in love and grace.

How Niemoller of you....

Never heard or read of him.

He's probably not familiar with you either. 

I suppose I'm too slow to understand the "Niemoller" reference.

I do believe in giving honor where honor is do. It takes great courage to stand alone against tyranny.

Martin Niemöller (1892-1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps.

Niemöller is perhaps best remembered for the quotation:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

I am reading Bonhoeffer right now. A contemporary of Niemoller I would presume.

Evidently, neither of them believed in the Sovereignty of God
...according to the logic of some here.

Although you can answer the questions directly asked of you. In case you missed them  ;D

However is God sovereign? Does He set up governments and kingdoms and tear them down?

When Jesus came to earth did He choose when that would happen with the government and kingdom?

Was it a very moral and pleasing to God kingdom?

Where was Christ's moral outrage at the government?

I find where he pays tribute as to not offend them, but never his outrage at their corrupt kingdom.

Of course the theme of his life and what he taught his followers was to cry out against a corrupt government. (tongue-in-cheek)

He did teach in His word that we pray for and be thankful for our leaders in these governments that we may live a peaceful life?


How about if the world understood more of what we are for then what we are against?

I don't know how the world views you, but our church is known for many things, things we're for and thing's we're against.
I'm a 5 point Calvinist, not an easy believism b*aptist, but I'm not a fatalist!
I can pray for those in authority over me at the same time oppose their policies...what about you?  :

Of course I can, and do.

However the point of your thread is that Christian leaders without scars...how did Jesus line up to that premise is my point.

Did you read the article?
There is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with Christians taking on these issues in public debate. Christian leaders who demean those who do are misguided at best.....cowardly and approval whores at worst. There is NOTHING wrong with calling abortion murder or homosexuality sinful/immoral behavior.

All of your double talk aside, there is nothing Biblically or morally wrong with having a little backbone and a Biblical standard. Give it a shot....

I did read the article.

How does Jesus line up against the premise of the article?

Would he be considered a leader without scars according to the article?

Who did Jesus fight with? The homosexuals? Or was it with the Scribes and Pharisees? Was it the sinners?

Seems your double talk is avoiding of answering the question about Christ in relation to the article.

On a side note I have plenty of Biblical standards, going around denouncing anyone (unsaved) that doesn't hold to them doesn't make me spiritual.

I guess there is a difference in reading something and comprehending what you read. You read it at least. 

WWJD aside, although it was a 'catchy' catchphrase......abortion and sodomy are political issues, and they were Biblical, moral issues first. There are many Americans who oppose special rights for Sodomites and abortion who aren't Christians. I don't have to take your attitude, position or in-action to be a Christ follower or a good citizen.
BTW, I also have been outspoken politically on many other issues thru the years. I'm not fighting ex fundy guilt and I don't have a burning desire for acceptance from the evangelically tolerant left...

And I didn't accuse you of being spiritual.  ;D

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

The problem with a theme of fighting is that Christians fight more among themselves then with anyone else.

And this shall all men know you are my disciples if you go out and fight with the world.

Who did Christ fight with? The corrupt Roman government and culture? I think not. He fight with the legalists and corruptors of the Jewish religion. He affiliated himself with the sinners in order to minister in love and grace.

How Niemoller of you....

Never heard or read of him.

He's probably not familiar with you either. 

I suppose I'm too slow to understand the "Niemoller" reference.

I do believe in giving honor where honor is do. It takes great courage to stand alone against tyranny.

Martin Niemöller (1892-1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps.

Niemöller is perhaps best remembered for the quotation:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

I am reading Bonhoeffer right now. A contemporary of Niemoller I would presume.

Evidently, neither of them believed in the Sovereignty of God
...according to the logic of some here.

Although you can answer the questions directly asked of you. In case you missed them  ;D

However is God sovereign? Does He set up governments and kingdoms and tear them down?

When Jesus came to earth did He choose when that would happen with the government and kingdom?

Was it a very moral and pleasing to God kingdom?

Where was Christ's moral outrage at the government?

I find where he pays tribute as to not offend them, but never his outrage at their corrupt kingdom.

Of course the theme of his life and what he taught his followers was to cry out against a corrupt government. (tongue-in-cheek)

He did teach in His word that we pray for and be thankful for our leaders in these governments that we may live a peaceful life?


How about if the world understood more of what we are for then what we are against?

I don't know how the world views you, but our church is known for many things, things we're for and thing's we're against.
I'm a 5 point Calvinist, not an easy believism b*aptist, but I'm not a fatalist!
I can pray for those in authority over me at the same time oppose their policies...what about you?  :

Of course I can, and do.

However the point of your thread is that Christian leaders without scars...how did Jesus line up to that premise is my point.

You do?
When, how?
That's exactly what fishin's e-mail did.
Tell us how to do it right!

 

[Mathew Ward]

I guess there is a difference in reading something and comprehending what you read. You read it at least. 

WWJD aside, although it was a 'catchy' catchphrase......abortion and sodomy are political issues, and they were Biblical, moral issues first. There are many Americans who oppose special rights for Sodomites and abortion who aren't Christians. I don't have to take your attitude, position or in-action to be a Christ follower or a good citizen.
BTW, I also have been outspoken politically on many other issues thru the years. I'm not fighting ex fundy guilt and I don't have a burning desire for acceptance from the evangelically tolerant left...

And I didn't accuse you of being spiritual.  ;D

It is nice of you to try and put ex-fundy guilt on me, but I hate to disappoint you, I don't have any. Also the only acceptance I am looking for is God's.

remember this is a two way street..."I don't have to take your attitude, position or in-action to be a Christ follower or a good citizen".

I guess there is a difference in writing something and comprehending what you write. You wrote it at least. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I guess there is a difference in reading something and comprehending what you read. You read it at least. 

WWJD aside, although it was a 'catchy' catchphrase......abortion and sodomy are political issues, and they were Biblical, moral issues first. There are many Americans who oppose special rights for Sodomites and abortion who aren't Christians. I don't have to take your attitude, position or in-action to be a Christ follower or a good citizen.
BTW, I also have been outspoken politically on many other issues thru the years. I'm not fighting ex fundy guilt and I don't have a burning desire for acceptance from the evangelically tolerant left...

And I didn't accuse you of being spiritual.  ;D

It is nice of you to try and put ex-fundy guilt on me, but I hate to disappoint you, I don't have any. Also the only acceptance I am looking for is God's.

remember this is a two way street..."I don't have to take your attitude, position or in-action to be a Christ follower or a good citizen".

I guess there is a difference in writing something and comprehending what you write. You wrote it at least. 

I didn't put it on you...just pointed it out.
Thank the good Lord for that!
I'm not responsible for your comprehension or lack thereof...thankful squared!