Congregational participation

[Bob H]

I thought I'd throw this out and see if it would draw any interest here. I thought it interesting. {Read his follow-up}


http://holysoup.com/2014/05/21/why-they-dont-sing-on-sunday-anymore/

 

[ALAYMAN]

Absolutely dead stinkin' on the bullseye.  I particularly thought the first point hit the mark...


Spectator set-up. Increasingly, the church has constructed the worship service as a spectator event. Everyone expects the people on stage to perform while the pew-sitters fulfill the expectation of any good audience–file in, be still, be quiet, don’t question, don’t contribute (except to the offering plate), and watch the spotlighted musicians deliver their well-rehearsed concerts.


Other than his 4 points, I'd add the two facts that many people simply don't value worship, whether in song or sermon.  They are there just to put in their dutiful time.  And secondly, many are probably unsaved.  Why expect a cat to bark?

 

[subllibrm]

Absolutely dead stinkin' on the bullseye.  I particularly thought the first point hit the mark...


Spectator set-up. Increasingly, the church has constructed the worship service as a spectator event. Everyone expects the people on stage to perform while the pew-sitters fulfill the expectation of any good audience–file in, be still, be quiet, don’t question, don’t contribute (except to the offering plate), and watch the spotlighted musicians deliver their well-rehearsed concerts.


Other than his 4 points, I'd add the two facts that many people simply don't value worship, whether in song or sermon.  They are there just to put in their dutiful time.  And secondly, many are probably unsaved.  Why expect a cat to bark?

WOW!!!! 

I can go back and forth with you to discuss one thing or another and walk away respecting your integrity. But brother, you have seriously crossed a line here. 

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Absolutely dead stinkin' on the bullseye.  I particularly thought the first point hit the mark...


Spectator set-up. Increasingly, the church has constructed the worship service as a spectator event. Everyone expects the people on stage to perform while the pew-sitters fulfill the expectation of any good audience–file in, be still, be quiet, don’t question, don’t contribute (except to the offering plate), and watch the spotlighted musicians deliver their well-rehearsed concerts.

I completely agree with the above paragraph. But I would include "listening to preaching" as a part of the performance. This is one of the reasons I believe that home churches are more like Christ intended. Much easier for people to interact, let the Spirit lead each individual, encourage one another in a group setting, pray for one another, and confront one another with correction as needed.

 

[rsc2a]

Absolutely dead stinkin' on the bullseye.  I particularly thought the first point hit the mark...


Spectator set-up. Increasingly, the church has constructed the worship service as a spectator event. Everyone expects the people on stage to perform while the pew-sitters fulfill the expectation of any good audience–file in, be still, be quiet, don’t question, don’t contribute (except to the offering plate), and watch the spotlighted musicians deliver their well-rehearsed concerts.


Other than his 4 points, I'd add the two facts that many people simply don't value worship, whether in song or sermon.  They are there just to put in their dutiful time.  And secondly, many are probably unsaved.  Why expect a cat to bark?

WOW!!!! 

I can go back and forth with you to discuss one thing or another and walk away respecting your integrity. But brother, you have seriously crossed a line here. 

What is incredibly amusing about the entire thing is he has been defending this type of thing for nearly a week now.

 

[ALAYMAN]

WOW!!!! 

I can go back and forth with you to discuss one thing or another and walk away respecting your integrity. But brother, you have seriously crossed a line here. 

I'm guessing that this is another one of those areas of miscommunication and misunderstanding.  I'd rather not put words in your mouth, and ask for clarification.  What line have I crossed? 

What is incredibly amusing about the entire thing is he has been defending this type of thing for nearly a week now.

What is incredibly amusing about the entire thing is how pompous you've been for nearly a lifetime now. 


You regularly miss the point, and/or misrepresent other people's perspective.  You're a snake in the grass, and I feel sorry for the people you have influence over.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Absolutely dead stinkin' on the bullseye.  I particularly thought the first point hit the mark...


Spectator set-up. Increasingly, the church has constructed the worship service as a spectator event. Everyone expects the people on stage to perform while the pew-sitters fulfill the expectation of any good audience–file in, be still, be quiet, don’t question, don’t contribute (except to the offering plate), and watch the spotlighted musicians deliver their well-rehearsed concerts.


Other than his 4 points, I'd add the two facts that many people simply don't value worship, whether in song or sermon.  They are there just to put in their dutiful time.  And secondly, many are probably unsaved.  Why expect a cat to bark?

I seem to recall being verbally crucified for expressing this opinion. 

 

[subllibrm]

Other than his 4 points, I'd add the two facts that many people simply don't value worship, whether in song or sermon.  They are there just to put in their dutiful time.  And secondly, many are probably unsaved.  Why expect a cat to bark?

Followed by personal suppositions/assumptions of other people's motives. You stated your opinion of what moves people to "do church" in a way that you don't approve of. Your opinion is not FACT. I doubt that it is even particularly accurate.

And every church will have tares in with the wheat regardless of practice or worship style. And don't assume that some of those faithful three to thrive'rs aren't there on Wednesday night just to "put in their dutiful time".

You have no idea who is at church for what reason, what they value in the worship experience and you certainly don't know their spiritual condition.

That is the line you crossed.

 

[subllibrm]

I seem to recall being verbally crucified for expressing this opinion.

That is true but you accused the traditional service people and they all go to church for the right reasons and do church the right way. Can't you see the difference? 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Absolutely dead stinkin' on the bullseye.  I particularly thought the first point hit the mark...


Spectator set-up. Increasingly, the church has constructed the worship service as a spectator event. Everyone expects the people on stage to perform while the pew-sitters fulfill the expectation of any good audience–file in, be still, be quiet, don’t question, don’t contribute (except to the offering plate), and watch the spotlighted musicians deliver their well-rehearsed concerts.


Other than his 4 points, I'd add the two facts that many people simply don't value worship, whether in song or sermon.  They are there just to put in their dutiful time.  And secondly, many are probably unsaved.  Why expect a cat to bark?

I seem to recall being verbally crucified for expressing this opinion.

yeah.... i remember that too....  : ... but i had no idea you were talking about the churches your forum friends here attended... ???.. i thought you were talking about the kind like mine use to be.... and the one i attend now still is ..... which is nothing at all like the model being discussed here.......  :-\

is it too late to apologize?........  ???

I wasn't talking about anyone on here, except to poke fun at a couple forum pastors.  I was talking about the contemporary church model, which is a theatrical model that grew out of pagan podium oratory.  People come as spectators to see a performance in both the music and the preaching.  While that works for some people (I guess), unless you mitigate it some way (such as with open discussions in Sunday school classes -- not just a teacher and students, which is still just passive non-participation) it cripples one the main points of the gathering of believers, which is mutual edification. 

No, it's not too late to apologize.  I forgive you and my other accusers. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

Absolutely dead stinkin' on the bullseye.  I particularly thought the first point hit the mark...


Spectator set-up. Increasingly, the church has constructed the worship service as a spectator event. Everyone expects the people on stage to perform while the pew-sitters fulfill the expectation of any good audience–file in, be still, be quiet, don’t question, don’t contribute (except to the offering plate), and watch the spotlighted musicians deliver their well-rehearsed concerts.


Other than his 4 points, I'd add the two facts that many people simply don't value worship, whether in song or sermon.  They are there just to put in their dutiful time.  And secondly, many are probably unsaved.  Why expect a cat to bark?

I seem to recall being verbally crucified for expressing this opinion.

I don't want to spill a lot of cyber ink here, so this will be a very brief synopsis.  There are points of agreement I have and had with you that the typical church model becomes an excuse for people to be entertained.  The point of divergence is that you seem to lay a disproportionate amount of blame on the traditional sermon as part of the "pagan church" problem.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Other than his 4 points, I'd add the two facts that many people simply don't value worship, whether in song or sermon.  They are there just to put in their dutiful time.  And secondly, many are probably unsaved.  Why expect a cat to bark?

Followed by personal suppositions/assumptions of other people's motives. You stated your opinion of what moves people to "do church" in a way that you don't approve of. Your opinion is not FACT. I doubt that it is even particularly accurate.

And every church will have tares in with the wheat regardless of practice or worship style. And don't assume that some of those faithful three to thrive'rs aren't there on Wednesday night just to "put in their dutiful time".

You have no idea who is at church for what reason, what they value in the worship experience and you certainly don't know their spiritual condition.

That is the line you crossed.

You are overly sensitive.  My comments weren't intended with merely the Contemporary church in mind, and after re-reading the link, neither was it the intention of the author of the article.  As far as judging motives, I merely stated what many better men than me (Lloyd-Jones, Spurgeon, Hyles , etc) have said about their belief that many in the pews are unconverted.  Ultimately, we don't know who is and who ain't, but if a significant number of attendees don't show marked signs of the rebirth in their daily lives then I likewise wouldn't expect them to enjoy real worship (like songs or sermons, let alone service) of a Savior they don't even know.

 

[Bob H]

Absolutely dead stinkin' on the bullseye.  I particularly thought the first point hit the mark...


Spectator set-up. Increasingly, the church has constructed the worship service as a spectator event. Everyone expects the people on stage to perform while the pew-sitters fulfill the expectation of any good audience–file in, be still, be quiet, don’t question, don’t contribute (except to the offering plate), and watch the spotlighted musicians deliver their well-rehearsed concerts.

I completely agree with the above paragraph. But I would include "listening to preaching" as a part of the performance.

Whether the Word is spoken thru a sermon or with a one on one confrontation with a individual it's the Holy Spirit's job then no matter what the motive of the listener. That's all we can do. God convicts & God converts


"For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.""







PS: This retired life is rough. Thinking of different ways of doing nuttin ain't so easy 

 

[subllibrm]

Other than his 4 points, I'd add the two facts that many people simply don't value worship, whether in song or sermon.  They are there just to put in their dutiful time.  And secondly, many are probably unsaved.  Why expect a cat to bark?

Followed by personal suppositions/assumptions of other people's motives. You stated your opinion of what moves people to "do church" in a way that you don't approve of. Your opinion is not FACT. I doubt that it is even particularly accurate.

And every church will have tares in with the wheat regardless of practice or worship style. And don't assume that some of those faithful three to thrive'rs aren't there on Wednesday night just to "put in their dutiful time".

You have no idea who is at church for what reason, what they value in the worship experience and you certainly don't know their spiritual condition.

That is the line you crossed.

You are overly sensitive.  My comments weren't intended with merely the Contemporary church in mind, and after re-reading the link, neither was it the intention of the author of the article.  As far as judging motives, I merely stated what many better men than me (Lloyd-Jones, Spurgeon, Hyles , etc) have said about their belief that many in the pews are unconverted.  Ultimately, we don't know who is and who ain't, but if a significant number of attendees don't show marked signs of the rebirth in their daily lives then I likewise wouldn't expect them to enjoy real worship (like songs or sermons, let alone service) of a Savior they don't even know.

So maybe the tomato is right after all. 

And since all of the men you mentioned used essentially the same methodology for their church services (as the tomato has pointed out), one could make the argument that they should consider how their approach to worship has influenced/cultivated this attitude in the flock.

In the best scene from "Remember The Titans":

Gary (team captain) - "that's the worst attitude I have ever heard"

Julius - "attitude reflect leadership, cap'n"

 

[ALAYMAN]

So maybe the tomato is right after all. 

In so far as those churches that use the pulpit for entertainment rather than sound Biblical exposition, I probably would agree with him.  But again, where I would sharply disagree would be in his claim that a single pastor, or elder rule structure is wrong (with regards to the model that has one of those men preaching regularly rather than allowing everyone in the congregation a dialoguing participation).

 

[prophet]

Absolutely dead stinkin' on the bullseye.  I particularly thought the first point hit the mark...


Spectator set-up. Increasingly, the church has constructed the worship service as a spectator event. Everyone expects the people on stage to perform while the pew-sitters fulfill the expectation of any good audience–file in, be still, be quiet, don’t question, don’t contribute (except to the offering plate), and watch the spotlighted musicians deliver their well-rehearsed concerts.


Other than his 4 points, I'd add the two facts that many people simply don't value worship, whether in song or sermon.  They are there just to put in their dutiful time.  And secondly, many are probably unsaved.  Why expect a cat to bark?

I seem to recall being verbally crucified for expressing this opinion.

yeah.... i remember that too....  : ... but i had no idea you were talking about the churches your forum friends here attended... ???.. i thought you were talking about the kind like mine use to be.... and the one i attend now still is ..... which is nothing at all like the model being discussed here.......  :-

is it too late to apologize?........  ???

I wasn't talking about anyone on here, except to poke fun at a couple forum pastors.  I was talking about the contemporary church model, which is a theatrical model that grew out of pagan podium oratory.  People come as spectators to see a performance in both the music and the preaching.  While that works for some people (I guess), unless you mitigate it some way (such as with open discussions in Sunday school classes -- not just a teacher and students, which is still just passive non-participation) it cripples one the main points of the gathering of believers, which is mutual edification. 

No, it's not too late to apologize.  I forgive you and my other accusers.

1Co 14:31
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

Apparently, God agrees with you on this.

Anishinabe

 

[ALAYMAN]

1Co 14:31
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

Apparently, God agrees with you on this.

Anishinabe

There are varying spiritual gifts in a congregation and there are rules for how to use those gifts.  Not everybody has the gift of prophecy.  Context is our friend.

 

[prophet]

1Co 14:31
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

Apparently, God agrees with you on this.

Anishinabe

There are varying spiritual gifts in a congregation and there are rules for how to use those gifts.  Not everybody has the gift of prophecy.  Context is our friend.

That should go w/o saying, but.....

Anishinabe

 

[ALAYMAN]

That should go w/o saying, but.....

Anishinabe

Tomato would advocate for everybody having a voice, a dialogical discussion, which is quite different than allowing all who are gifted for prophecy to speak.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

That should go w/o saying, but.....

Anishinabe

Tomato would advocate for everybody having a voice, a dialogical discussion, which is quite different than allowing all who are gifted for prophecy to speak.

Please don't speak for me.  I would advocate for everybody to have the freedom to speak.  Not everyone is required to speak.  As you say, not everyone has the same gift.  But don't silence those who have the gift of prophecy by expecting them to sit silently as a spectator only and listen to one appointed preacher.