Congregational participation

[ALAYMAN]

Please don't speak for me.

Too late.

What I said is what you believe, which you go on to prove with the following statement...

I would advocate for everybody to have the freedom to speak.  Not everyone is required to speak.  As you say, not everyone has the same gift.  But don't silence those who have the gift of prophecy by expecting them to sit silently as a spectator only and listen to one appointed preacher.

In my congregation, all who have been given the gift of prophecy are afforded the opportunity to exercise it in some capacity with regularity.  It seems you wish for, as I said, a more dialogical approach, and for everyone who has the gift to exercise it to the whole congregation.  I didn't put any words into your mouth with what I previously said, nor what I just typed.

 

[Mathew Ward]

That should go w/o saying, but.....

Anishinabe

Tomato would advocate for everybody having a voice, a dialogical discussion, which is quite different than allowing all who are gifted for prophecy to speak.

Please don't speak for me.  I would advocate for everybody to have the freedom to speak.  Not everyone is required to speak.  As you say, not everyone has the same gift.  But don't silence those who have the gift of prophecy by expecting them to sit silently as a spectator only and listen to one appointed preacher.

Who determines if someone has the gift of prophecy?

I've heard many men "called to preach" who do the Scriptures a disservice by preaching.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Absolutely dead stinkin' on the bullseye.  I particularly thought the first point hit the mark...


Spectator set-up. Increasingly, the church has constructed the worship service as a spectator event. Everyone expects the people on stage to perform while the pew-sitters fulfill the expectation of any good audience–file in, be still, be quiet, don’t question, don’t contribute (except to the offering plate), and watch the spotlighted musicians deliver their well-rehearsed concerts.

I completely agree with the above paragraph. But I would include "listening to preaching" as a part of the performance.

Whether the Word is spoken thru a sermon or with a one on one confrontation with a individual it's the Holy Spirit's job then no matter what the motive of the listener. That's all we can do. God convicts & God converts


"For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.""

PS: This retired life is rough. Thinking of different ways of doing nuttin ain't so easy 

I bet it is tough to retire. I hope you find something to help you pass the extra time you now have.

Back to your other point, I DO agree with you. But what I am saying is that the way the current church service is set up, it is set up like entertainment, even the preaching. One guy is doing all the verbal communication (allegedly from God). At times he is looking for support ("Can I hear an 'AMEN'?") and other times people are simply entertained by the gung-ho style. Why? Because it entertains them.

Contrast that with people sitting around a dining room table, praying with one another, reading passages of Scripture to one another, counseling one another. Not only can the Spirit convict, but there is also personal accountability.

This week there is an example in my own life. Went to church on Sunday and heard a message from the Book of James. I've read James probably over 100 times in my life, plus having taken the course in college, done a small group study on the book, had 2 different churches preach through the book and taught the book in one of my Sunday School classes many moons ago. There is not much I am going to learn by the pastor preaching through the book.

On Monday, my wife and I saw a friend we hadn't seen in about a year. An older fellow, former pastor. After chit-chat, we talked a little about our lives and he pointed out something in my life that was out of whack. To confess here, I have an obsession with something (character trait) which is a good and godly thing. However, he clearly pointed out that my obsession with doing this particular good thing was becoming a god in my life. My older, wiser friend brought me down to reality as I realize he was right.

I got more from that friend in a 10 minute piece of conversation than I did the entire last year sitting in churches, listening to stuff I have heard every week of my life for over 40 years.

Now, can God use preaching? Sure. Jesus preached to multitudes a time or two. I'm not against preaching. What I am saying is that the way churches are set up logistically, they are set up like entertainment venues: platform, humor, comfortable seating, music to taste, etc. Not at all saying those are bad but rather the church in its service is a lot like entertainment venues of the world and that includes our preaching. I think God's intention through Jesus' example is that there are times for preaching but most discipleship-growing is done on a smaller scale through personal confrontation. If only we could set up our churches on such a scale...

 

[Bob H]

Absolutely dead stinkin' on the bullseye.  I particularly thought the first point hit the mark...


Spectator set-up. Increasingly, the church has constructed the worship service as a spectator event. Everyone expects the people on stage to perform while the pew-sitters fulfill the expectation of any good audience–file in, be still, be quiet, don’t question, don’t contribute (except to the offering plate), and watch the spotlighted musicians deliver their well-rehearsed concerts.

I completely agree with the above paragraph. But I would include "listening to preaching" as a part of the performance.

Whether the Word is spoken thru a sermon or with a one on one confrontation with a individual it's the Holy Spirit's job then no matter what the motive of the listener. That's all we can do. God convicts & God converts


"For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.""

PS: This retired life is rough. Thinking of different ways of doing nuttin ain't so easy 

Back to your other point, I DO agree with you. But what I am saying is that the way the current church service is set up, it is set up like entertainment, even the preaching. One guy is doing all the verbal communication (allegedly from God). At times he is looking for support ("Can I hear an 'AMEN'?") and other times people are simply entertained by the gung-ho style. Why? Because it entertains them.

I'm sorry but the vast majority of believers who go hear a bible believing preacher preach ain't going cause they wanna be entertained. I've heard a lot of great speakers but none that good. At times some may go out of duty but still God's Word "shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

 

[Smellin Coffee]

............

Contrast that with people sitting around a dining room table, praying with one another, reading passages of Scripture to one another, counseling one another. Not only can the Spirit convict, but there is also personal accountability.

...............

this sounds more like bible study..... something we have had quite often at home... and also in sunday school prior to the church service.... definitely an indispensable part of a christians life and vital to one who wants to grow in Christ and serve God......... but it is not a substitute for church....... not the same as being taught from scripture by a pastor who has dedicated his life and lively hood to full time service of God 24-7.... .......[/i]

It is quite simple. Jesus established the church and yet His establishment does not at all resemble what we have in our country today. That's not to say that our churches today are "wrong" but Jesus told the disciples to go and make disciples, not build churches.

Actually, I believe that the personal level is better than the group level because the people who administer instruction and rebuke can specifically identify in each individual where growth needs to take place and can confront in love accordingly. There is no such ability by the preacher who has to "wing it" and hope it sticks to someone, anyone.

When I was diagnosed with cancer, I had several options in which to battle it. Rather than taking chances with radiation or "seeds" to hopefully combat it, I chose surgery to go in and get it removed directly. (There is still a chance of recurrence.) The surgery was more invasive and a better option in getting it removed. Likewise to use the teachings of Jesus, His apostles and His prophets, it seems to work better when it becomes more invasive, personal if you will. The problem is that it takes vulnerability to be willing to allow someone to see as we are and accept rebuke from a brother as well as courage to approach a brother with specific issues in his personal world. When preaching is emphasized OVER this approach, the majority of the listeners are not doing so with vulnerability.

Anyway, I realize it is simply a difference of opinion and preference. Neither style is any more right than another. I just believe the "small group" approach, though still highly flawed, is what Jesus had in mind in our making disciples for Him. IMHO.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Jesus fed 4000.
Jesus fed 5000.
Jesus taught from a boat to avoid the 'press' of the huge crowds that followed Him.

He never discouraged the crowds from coming, but at the same time, He also made disciples in small groups, which He chose from among the multitudes. Sounds a lot like the pattern of the contemporary church to me.

This sitting around the table 'sharing' with each other is no more Biblical than any other method used by the church.
If I'm sitting around the table, I'd prefer you share a medium rib eye with me....but I'm just carnal that way....

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Jesus fed 4000.
Jesus fed 5000.
Jesus taught from a boat to avoid the 'press' of the huge crowds that followed Him.

He never discouraged the crowds from coming, but at the same time, He also made disciples in small groups, which He chose from among the multitudes. Sounds a lot like the pattern of the contemporary church to me.

This sitting around the table 'sharing' with each other is no more Biblical than any other method used by the church.
If I'm sitting around the table, I'd prefer you share a medium rib eye with me....but I'm just carnal that way....

And with which method did He use to "make" disciples?

Did the crowds meet Him each and every week for spiritual guidance? Why didn't he use the crowds to start His church since they were already eating out of His hand? (See the pun? )

No, His church was built in the small setting.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Jesus fed 4000.
Jesus fed 5000.
Jesus taught from a boat to avoid the 'press' of the huge crowds that followed Him.

He never discouraged the crowds from coming, but at the same time, He also made disciples in small groups, which He chose from among the multitudes. Sounds a lot like the pattern of the contemporary church to me.

This sitting around the table 'sharing' with each other is no more Biblical than any other method used by the church.
If I'm sitting around the table, I'd prefer you share a medium rib eye with me....but I'm just carnal that way....

And with which method did He use to "make" disciples?

Did the crowds meet Him each and every week for spiritual guidance? Why didn't he use the crowds to start His church since they were already eating out of His hand? (See the pun? )

No, His church was built in the small setting.

The same method the church today uses to make disciples.
The crowds met with Him at least weekly, if not more often...and He taught them!!!
His church started with the indwelling of the holy Spirit...stay in Jerusalem until you are empowered by the Holy Spirit.

But, I'lll be happy to sit around a small table and share with you...if you bring the rib eye! 

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Jesus fed 4000.
Jesus fed 5000.
Jesus taught from a boat to avoid the 'press' of the huge crowds that followed Him.

He never discouraged the crowds from coming, but at the same time, He also made disciples in small groups, which He chose from among the multitudes. Sounds a lot like the pattern of the contemporary church to me.

This sitting around the table 'sharing' with each other is no more Biblical than any other method used by the church.
If I'm sitting around the table, I'd prefer you share a medium rib eye with me....but I'm just carnal that way....

And with which method did He use to "make" disciples?

Did the crowds meet Him each and every week for spiritual guidance? Why didn't he use the crowds to start His church since they were already eating out of His hand? (See the pun? )

No, His church was built in the small setting.

The same method the church today uses to make disciples.
The crowds met with Him at least weekly, if not more often...and He taught them!!!
His church started with the indwelling of the holy Spirit...stay in Jerusalem until you are empowered by the Holy Spirit.

But, I'lll be happy to sit around a small table and share with you...if you bring the rib eye! 

I'm curious; Where do the Gospels or Acts say that Jesus met with crowds on a weekly basis? I don't think I've ever heard that one before.

I believe the church started with Him and before Acts. (IIRC, this is one of the few points I agree with Tom Brennan about.) Jesus had mentioned "the church" and not always in a prophetic sense (though he did use the future ideal when talking about Peter). The church had already started and the disciples were to go and teach the things He taught them and make disciples as He modeled.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Jesus fed 4000.
Jesus fed 5000.
Jesus taught from a boat to avoid the 'press' of the huge crowds that followed Him.

He never discouraged the crowds from coming, but at the same time, He also made disciples in small groups, which He chose from among the multitudes. Sounds a lot like the pattern of the contemporary church to me.

This sitting around the table 'sharing' with each other is no more Biblical than any other method used by the church.
If I'm sitting around the table, I'd prefer you share a medium rib eye with me....but I'm just carnal that way....

And with which method did He use to "make" disciples?

Did the crowds meet Him each and every week for spiritual guidance? Why didn't he use the crowds to start His church since they were already eating out of His hand? (See the pun? )

No, His church was built in the small setting.

The same method the church today uses to make disciples.
The crowds met with Him at least weekly, if not more often...and He taught them!!!
His church started with the indwelling of the holy Spirit...stay in Jerusalem until you are empowered by the Holy Spirit.

But, I'lll be happy to sit around a small table and share with you...if you bring the rib eye! 

I'm curious; Where do the Gospels or Acts say that Jesus met with crowds on a weekly basis? I don't think I've ever heard that one before.

I believe the church started with Him and before Acts. (IIRC, this is one of the few points I agree with Tom Brennan about.) Jesus had mentioned "the church" and not always in a prophetic sense (though he did use the future ideal when talking about Peter). The church had already started and the disciples were to go and teach the things He taught them and make disciples as He modeled.

Where do the gospels and Acts say that He didn't?
It seems to me they had large crowds gathering more than weekly for awhile...to be taught!
Peter preached in Acts and 3000 were saved.
Again,in Acts, 5000 men were saved.
Acts 6, they called the entire congregation together for an organizational meeting.

Jesus is the founder and foundation for the church, but He choose to start it in Acts...with the Jews.
He also expanded it to the gentiles in Acts 10.
He also chose to scatter the church thru persecution in Acts 7-8...to further His plan to expand His church.
Later Paul expanded the church into all the world, and preached to large crowds as well as smaller groups.

There is nothing more spiritual or biblical about a small group model than a large congregation/small group model.
Absolutely nothing!

 

[PFFlyer]

If there is no life, then we can't be talking about the Body of Christ, because He lives!!  So, no participation...no congregation.

Just an audience.

Sadly, there's a lot of that going around.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Jesus fed 4000.
Jesus fed 5000.
Jesus taught from a boat to avoid the 'press' of the huge crowds that followed Him.

He never discouraged the crowds from coming, but at the same time, He also made disciples in small groups, which He chose from among the multitudes. Sounds a lot like the pattern of the contemporary church to me.

This sitting around the table 'sharing' with each other is no more Biblical than any other method used by the church.
If I'm sitting around the table, I'd prefer you share a medium rib eye with me....but I'm just carnal that way....

And with which method did He use to "make" disciples?

Did the crowds meet Him each and every week for spiritual guidance? Why didn't he use the crowds to start His church since they were already eating out of His hand? (See the pun? )

No, His church was built in the small setting.

The same method the church today uses to make disciples.
The crowds met with Him at least weekly, if not more often...and He taught them!!!
His church started with the indwelling of the holy Spirit...stay in Jerusalem until you are empowered by the Holy Spirit.

But, I'lll be happy to sit around a small table and share with you...if you bring the rib eye! 

I'm curious; Where do the Gospels or Acts say that Jesus met with crowds on a weekly basis? I don't think I've ever heard that one before.

I believe the church started with Him and before Acts. (IIRC, this is one of the few points I agree with Tom Brennan about.) Jesus had mentioned "the church" and not always in a prophetic sense (though he did use the future ideal when talking about Peter). The church had already started and the disciples were to go and teach the things He taught them and make disciples as He modeled.

Where do the gospels and Acts say that He didn't?
It seems to me they had large crowds gathering more than weekly for awhile...to be taught!
Peter preached in Acts and 3000 were saved.
Again,in Acts, 5000 men were saved.
Acts 6, they called the entire congregation together for an organizational meeting.

Jesus is the founder and foundation for the church, but He choose to start it in Acts...with the Jews.
He also expanded it to the gentiles in Acts 10.
He also chose to scatter the church thru persecution in Acts 7-8...to further His plan to expand His church.
Later Paul expanded the church into all the world, and preached to large crowds as well as smaller groups.

There is nothing more spiritual or biblical about a small group model than a large congregation/small group model.
Absolutely nothing!

I am of the opinion the church had it's nucleus of formation in place before Pentecost, and was empowered at Pentecost, but it was far more than the twelve, as we see in Acts 1:15 that prayer meeting contained 120 people.

You can define "small group" any way you want, but we can't have a "small group" meting of 120 in my house. 120 is a reasonable sized church, particularly if you are taking adults.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Where do the gospels and Acts say that He didn't?

Which proves my point. If the biblical penmen didn't leave any kind of historical record of this point of Jesus' model, then it doesn't matter. The church as we practice it today is a far cry from the one Jesus modeled that was recorded.

It seems to me they had large crowds gathering more than weekly for awhile...to be taught!

You still haven't shown from biblical record where there were "weekly" meetings with the same individuals. Besides, though some did want to hear Him teach (sometimes to "prove" His alleged heresy), many came because of His reputation for performing miracles and He took advantage of the situation to speak to them. There is no evidence He met with the same group of hundreds of people at the same location, the same time each week.

Peter preached in Acts and 3000 were saved. Again,in Acts, 5000 men were saved.

So these 8000 people were meeting weekly for singing, offering, announcements, preaching, invitation, perhaps baptism or Lord's Supper and leaving after two hours? Though I can't prove they didn't meet, again, there is no record so even if true, it would have been of no importance.

Acts 6, they called the entire congregation together for an organizational meeting.

Wait, why did they have to be called? Why not address the issues after their weekly church service?

Jesus is the founder and foundation for the church, but He choose to start it in Acts...with the Jews.

So Jesus in Matthew 18 had clearly established church discipline for an organization (or spiritual organism) that didn't exist yet. Actually, it sounds like it was something in which they were already participating. He certainly never put the church in this passage in futuristic terms.

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

He also chose to scatter the church thru persecution in Acts 7-8...to further His plan to expand His church.

Finally something I agree with you about.

Later Paul expanded the church into all the world, and preached to large crowds as well as smaller groups.

Though he did do some church planting, some of the churches he addressed were already in existence meaning Christianity had already spread.

There is nothing more spiritual or biblical about a small group model than a large congregation/small group model.
Absolutely nothing!

Spiritual? Perhaps not. Biblical? Since there is no record of weekly assemblies as we do today, I would say "not biblical". Again, that doesn't mean "anti-biblical" but rather a non issue. Besides, how often does your church include meals as a part of their "church service"?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I am of the opinion the church had it's nucleus of formation in place before Pentecost, and was empowered at Pentecost, but it was far more than the twelve, as we see in Acts 1:15 that prayer meeting contained 120 people.

I agree there was empowerment. No question in my mind. However, that meeting was as a result of the people meeting in anticipation of the coming of the Spirit rather than it happening at their weekly church service.

And while staying with them he (Jesus) ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me;  for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

You can define "small group" any way you want, but we can't have a "small group" meting of 120 in my house. 120 is a reasonable sized church, particularly if you are taking adults.

In Acts, they met "from house to house". The coming of the Spirit on them happened, not in anyone's house but in the "hotel meeting room" as we would look at it today.

Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away. 13 And when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying...

The disciples were "staying" there. Where was Peter's wife? Was she living there too? I'm thinking it was probably the same location where they celebrated Passover with Jesus a month and a half before but that is strictly conjecture on my part.

He said to them, “Behold, when you have entered the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him into the house that he enters and tell the master of the house, ‘The Teacher says to you, Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ And he will show you a large upper room furnished; prepare it there.” And they went and found it just as he had told them, and they prepared the Passover.

Either way, the disciples were staying together at that location and they went to the upper room to pray. Do your church members stay together in the same compound and go to the designated "meeting" place each week?

Again, there is NO record these 120 met with each other every week for a church service.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Absolutely dead stinkin' on the bullseye.  I particularly thought the first point hit the mark...


Spectator set-up. Increasingly, the church has constructed the worship service as a spectator event. Everyone expects the people on stage to perform while the pew-sitters fulfill the expectation of any good audience–file in, be still, be quiet, don’t question, don’t contribute (except to the offering plate), and watch the spotlighted musicians deliver their well-rehearsed concerts.

I completely agree with the above paragraph. But I would include "listening to preaching" as a part of the performance.

Whether the Word is spoken thru a sermon or with a one on one confrontation with a individual it's the Holy Spirit's job then no matter what the motive of the listener. That's all we can do. God convicts & God converts


"For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.""

PS: This retired life is rough. Thinking of different ways of doing nuttin ain't so easy 

Back to your other point, I DO agree with you. But what I am saying is that the way the current church service is set up, it is set up like entertainment, even the preaching. One guy is doing all the verbal communication (allegedly from God). At times he is looking for support ("Can I hear an 'AMEN'?") and other times people are simply entertained by the gung-ho style. Why? Because it entertains them.

I'm sorry but the vast majority of believers who go hear a bible believing preacher preach ain't going cause they wanna be entertained. I've heard a lot of great speakers but none that good. At times some may go out of duty but still God's Word "shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

And that is taking a gamble that the preacher that day will actually preach a word directly from God to every single listener.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I'm sorry but the vast majority of believers who go hear a bible believing preacher preach ain't going cause they wanna be entertained.

Of course they are.  You are simply applying a narrow definition to entertainment.  They're there to sit down, be quiet, and listen to what they hope will be a good sermon, delivered with style. 

One thing is certain.  They aren't sitting quietly in pews for the purpose of mutual edification. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Where do the gospels and Acts say that He didn't?

Which proves my point. If the biblical penmen didn't leave any kind of historical record of this point of Jesus' model, then it doesn't matter. The church as we practice it today is a far cry from the one Jesus modeled that was recorded.

It seems to me they had large crowds gathering more than weekly for awhile...to be taught!

You still haven't shown from biblical record where there were "weekly" meetings with the same individuals. Besides, though some did want to hear Him teach (sometimes to "prove" His alleged heresy), many came because of His reputation for performing miracles and He took advantage of the situation to speak to them. There is no evidence He met with the same group of hundreds of people at the same location, the same time each week.

Peter preached in Acts and 3000 were saved. Again,in Acts, 5000 men were saved.

So these 8000 people were meeting weekly for singing, offering, announcements, preaching, invitation, perhaps baptism or Lord's Supper and leaving after two hours? Though I can't prove they didn't meet, again, there is no record so even if true, it would have been of no importance.

Acts 6, they called the entire congregation together for an organizational meeting.

Wait, why did they have to be called? Why not address the issues after their weekly church service?

Jesus is the founder and foundation for the church, but He choose to start it in Acts...with the Jews.

So Jesus in Matthew 18 had clearly established church discipline for an organization (or spiritual organism) that didn't exist yet. Actually, it sounds like it was something in which they were already participating. He certainly never put the church in this passage in futuristic terms.

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

He also chose to scatter the church thru persecution in Acts 7-8...to further His plan to expand His church.

Finally something I agree with you about.

Later Paul expanded the church into all the world, and preached to large crowds as well as smaller groups.

Though he did do some church planting, some of the churches he addressed were already in existence meaning Christianity had already spread.

There is nothing more spiritual or biblical about a small group model than a large congregation/small group model.
Absolutely nothing!

Spiritual? Perhaps not. Biblical? Since there is no record of weekly assemblies as we do today, I would say "not biblical". Again, that doesn't mean "anti-biblical" but rather a non issue. Besides, how often does your church include meals as a part of their "church service"?

You make my point....Jesus met and taught the crowds regularly.....daily, weekly....hourly...

The early church, after it was established on Jesus' timetable, met on the first day of the week...as opposed to the Sabbath. The business meeting so to speak in Acts 6 might have been called after a church meeting....who knows.

And Paul visited established churches on his second missionary journey....MOST of which he helped establish.

Dan, you draw this fanciful narrative based on what you wish it were. Click your heels together and repeat there's no place like the kitchen table.....

There is NO, none, nada more Biblical model for the church than that which is used today.
Now, I don't care if you meet in the broom closet or a toilet stall, just don't intimate that because you do you're somehow more Biblical....more spiritual, more informed.

Click....there's no place like the kitchen table.....

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]There is NO, none, nada more Biblical model for the church than that which is used today.[/quote]

hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahah
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahah
ahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha.... breathe... hahahahahahahahhaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahah
ahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahah
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ahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]There is NO, none, nada more Biblical model for the church than that which is used today.

hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahah
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahah
ahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha.... breathe... hahahahahahahahhaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahah
ahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahah
ahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahah
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[/quote]

^This. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I'm sorry but the vast majority of believers who go hear a bible believing preacher preach ain't going cause they wanna be entertained.

Of course they are.  You are simply applying a narrow definition to entertainment.  They're there to sit down, be quiet, and listen to what they hope will be a good sermon, delivered with style. 

One thing is certain.  They aren't sitting quietly in pews for the purpose of mutual edification.

And you know this 'How'?
You also seem to have brilliant insight hidden from us mere mortals.
Almost thou persuadest me to gather around the kitchen table......nah!