Death Penalty?

[Ransom]

I was pro-death penalty until I realized that God wasn't. (Cain, Moses, Joab, David, etc.)

Was God opposing himself when he made murder, kidnapping, adultery, homosexuality, etc. capital offenses in the Old Covenant?

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Personally, I think a greater good is done (at this point) than any wrong that is inevitably perpetrated against an innocent man.

Until that innocent man is your own son.

What a turd.

How about the innocent son who gets killed by a worthless criminal?

Or an innocent brother. Yeah...been there.

"Forgive me as I forgive those who have sinned against me."
[/quote]

Forgiveness doesn't preclude justice.

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Personally, I think a greater good is done (at this point) than any wrong that is inevitably perpetrated against an innocent man.

Until that innocent man is your own son.

What a turd.

How about the innocent son who gets killed by a worthless criminal?

What about the innocent man who gets killed by a corrupt government while the worthless criminal has the evidence against him covered up by said government and walks free?  Almost every bit of that happened in West Memphis.  The only thing different is that the innocent man got set free after he and his two friends were coerced into pleading guilty while maintaining innocence (I know it sounds stupid, but that was the actual legal plea he made) so they could close the case and not hold anyone accountable for their corruption.  That's a legal system I want to trust my life with right there...  NOT!
[/quote]

Again, the failure of a man made system doesn't prevent from believing in the death penalty.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Personally, I think a greater good is done (at this point) than any wrong that is inevitably perpetrated against an innocent man.

Until that innocent man is your own son.
[/quote]


If I believe the Bible/God tells me that the death penalty is right, and my son is the unfortunate byproduct of a "lesser good" as a result, I'd fight like Hades to prevent it from happening to him, but wouldn't go against what I believe God's word tells me to believe.  I'm sure I am hypocritical and inconsistent in the carrying out of my belief structure, but I try to make it the exception, not the rule.

 

[BandGuy]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Personally, I think a greater good is done (at this point) than any wrong that is inevitably perpetrated against an innocent man.

Until that innocent man is your own son.

What a turd.

How about the innocent son who gets killed by a worthless criminal?

What about the innocent man who gets killed by a corrupt government while the worthless criminal has the evidence against him covered up by said government and walks free?  Almost every bit of that happened in West Memphis.  The only thing different is that the innocent man got set free after he and his two friends were coerced into pleading guilty while maintaining innocence (I know it sounds stupid, but that was the actual legal plea he made) so they could close the case and not hold anyone accountable for their corruption.  That's a legal system I want to trust my life with right there...  NOT!

Again, the failure of a man made system doesn't prevent from believing in the death penalty.
[/quote]

I think I should clarify:  I still believe in the death penalty, but don't think we should trust a government as corrupt as the one I described above to carry it out.  There should be a full, thorough and independent investigation done, the case should be opened back up and those who perpetrated this injustice should be brought up on charges and held accountable.  How else can we trust that there will still be a fair hearing in this country?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Personally, I think a greater good is done (at this point) than any wrong that is inevitably perpetrated against an innocent man.

Until that innocent man is your own son.

If I believe the Bible/God tells me that the death penalty is right...[/quote]

The Bible tells us we all deserve the death penalty.  It also tells us to live lives marked by grace.

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Personally, I think a greater good is done (at this point) than any wrong that is inevitably perpetrated against an innocent man.

Until that innocent man is your own son.

If I believe the Bible/God tells me that the death penalty is right...

The Bible tells us we all deserve the death penalty.  It also tells us to live lives marked by grace.
[/quote]

Desiring death because of man's inherent fallen nature.... doesn't have anything to do with God's divine decree toward the civil judgment of a murder. That murder can find grace in the eyes of God and he can immediately receive his "reward".

The very fact you like to "mix" the two... just goes to prove you're an idiot.

 

[ALAYMAN]

The Bible tells us we all deserve the death penalty.  It also tells us to live lives marked by grace.

Despite the fact that God spoke of death as the penalty for sin from the inception of the book of Genesis, he codified civil law that mandated the death sentence for lawbreakers in the Old Testament, and the New.  As christundivided said, you're confusing things that God distinguishes.

 

[rsc2a]

The Bible tells us we all deserve the death penalty.  It also tells us to live lives marked by grace.

Despite the fact that God spoke of death as the penalty for sin from the inception of the book of Genesis, he codified civil law that mandated the death sentence for lawbreakers in the Old Testament...

So we should stone your rebellious child to death?

...and the New.  As christundivided said, you're confusing things that God distinguishes.

Ah...that part where it says "You say 'an eye for an eye', but I say unto you...."

 

[ALAYMAN]

The Bible tells us we all deserve the death penalty.  It also tells us to live lives marked by grace.

Despite the fact that God spoke of death as the penalty for sin from the inception of the book of Genesis, he codified civil law that mandated the death sentence for lawbreakers in the Old Testament...

So we should stone your rebellious child to death?

...and the New.  As christundivided said, you're confusing things that God distinguishes.

Ah...that part where it says "You say 'an eye for an eye', but I say unto you...."

Failure to rightly divide the word is often your problem, and one that has had to be corrected so many times to this point that I am convinced it is willful, well, wait for it, yep, you guessed it......








obtuse-itis.

 

[rsc2a]

The Bible tells us we all deserve the death penalty.  It also tells us to live lives marked by grace.

Despite the fact that God spoke of death as the penalty for sin from the inception of the book of Genesis, he codified civil law that mandated the death sentence for lawbreakers in the Old Testament...

So we should stone your rebellious child to death?

...and the New.  As christundivided said, you're confusing things that God distinguishes.

Ah...that part where it says "You say 'an eye for an eye', but I say unto you...."

Failure to rightly divide the word is often your problem...

Because Jesus clearly didn't mean that for us or something.



[quote author=ALAYMAN]...and one that has had to be corrected so many times to this point that I am convinced it is willful, well, wait for it, yep, you guessed it......

obtuse-itis.
[/quote]


Yes, that's how the Apostle said charity works towards our brethren.  : - Alayman

 

[Darkwing Duck]

I was pro-death penalty until I realized that God wasn't. (Cain, Moses, Joab, David, etc.)

Was God opposing himself when he made murder, kidnapping, adultery, homosexuality, etc. capital offenses in the Old Covenant?

Apparently. Unless you want to tell me that he killed Cain the murderer, David the adulterer, etc.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

The Bible tells us we all deserve the death penalty.  It also tells us to live lives marked by grace.

Despite the fact that God spoke of death as the penalty for sin from the inception of the book of Genesis, he codified civil law that mandated the death sentence for lawbreakers in the Old Testament, and the New.  As christundivided said, you're confusing things that God distinguishes.

Where in the NT?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Because Jesus clearly didn't mean that for us or something.

Is the "us" in Matthew 5 "the government"?  Failure to rightly divide and apply is what I charged you with, and the sad thing is you know better, but merely like to argue.

Yes, that's how the Apostle said charity works towards our brethren.  : - Alayman

Am I now your enemy because I declare unto you the truth?---Apostle Paul

Where in the NT?

Romans 13

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Where in the NT?

Romans 13

I'm sorry. I don't see support of the death penalty in Romans 13? Is there a specific verse? Or were you speaking generically because Romans 13 teaches us to submit to government and the death penalty is a government law. (And if so would you use this same argument to agree with abortion?)

Honestly, I can't imagine how someone can read the story of Cain, Moses, etc. and think that God favors the death penalty.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I'm sorry. I don't see support of the death penalty in Romans 13? Is there a specific verse? Or were you speaking generically because Romans 13 teaches us to submit to government and the death penalty is a government law. (And if so would you use this same argument to agree with abortion?)

Rom 13:4  For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

The words "beareth the sword" have direct bearing on the discussion of the death penalty.

Honestly, I can't imagine how someone can read the story of Cain, Moses, etc. and think that God favors the death penalty.

What do you think of the clear Old Testament commands God gave to do that very thing?

 

[Darkwing Duck]

I'm sorry. I don't see support of the death penalty in Romans 13? Is there a specific verse? Or were you speaking generically because Romans 13 teaches us to submit to government and the death penalty is a government law. (And if so would you use this same argument to agree with abortion?)

Rom 13:4  For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

The words "beareth the sword" have direct bearing on the discussion of the death penalty.

Honestly, I can't imagine how someone can read the story of Cain, Moses, etc. and think that God favors the death penalty.

What do you think of the clear Old Testament commands God gave to do that very thing?

The same thing I think about all the other OT commands - not wearing two different types of material, sacrificing animals, etc.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I'm sorry. I don't see support of the death penalty in Romans 13? Is there a specific verse? Or were you speaking generically because Romans 13 teaches us to submit to government and the death penalty is a government law. (And if so would you use this same argument to agree with abortion?)

Rom 13:4  For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

The words "beareth the sword" have direct bearing on the discussion of the death penalty.

Honestly, I can't imagine how someone can read the story of Cain, Moses, etc. and think that God favors the death penalty.

What do you think of the clear Old Testament commands God gave to do that very thing?

The same thing I think about all the other OT commands - not wearing two different types of material, sacrificing animals, etc.

So you think there is no moral bearing that ought to be applied from OT teachings?  Why did you bring OT examples into the discussion?

 

[rsc2a]

Because Jesus clearly didn't mean that for us or something.

Is the "us" in Matthew 5 "the government"?  Failure to rightly divide and apply is what I charged you with, and the sad thing is you know better, but merely like to argue.

Should we not base our government on the teachings of Jesus as well as our personal lives?

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

Yes, that's how the Apostle said charity works towards our brethren.  : - Alayman

Am I now your enemy because I declare unto you the truth?---Apostle Paul[/quote]

Fantastic! Can you provide examples of how he engaged with others by referring to them as idiots?

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

Where in the NT?

Romans 13[/quote]

The government does "bear the sword". There is absolutely nothing in that idiom to require a death penalty.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]What do you think of the clear Old Testament commands God gave to do that very thing?[/quote]

Life is God's to give and God's to take. When you (or a system of government) hear(s) the express word of God telling you to take a life, then we can talk.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Should we not base our government on the teachings of Jesus as well as our personal lives?

You're advocating a theocracy?

Fantastic! Can you provide examples of how he engaged with others by referring to them as idiots?

You are so loose with words it's hard to have meaningful conversation.  I said you are obtuse, because you are.  I never called you an idiot.

The government does "bear the sword". There is absolutely nothing in that idiom to require a death penalty.

Barnes
A revenger ... - In Rom_12:19, vengeance is said to belong to God. Yet he “executes” his vengeance by means of subordinate agents. It belongs to him to take vengeance by direct judgments, by the plague, famine, sickness, or earthquakes; by the appointment of magistrates; or by letting loose the passions of people to prey upon each other. When a magistrate inflicts punishment on the guilty, it is to be regarded as the act of God taking vengeance “by him;” and on this principle only is it right for a judge to condemn a man to death. It is not because one man has by nature any right over the life of another, or because “society” has any right collectively which it has not as individuals; but because “God” gave life, and because he has chosen to take it away when crime is committed by the appointment of magistrates, and not by coming forth himself visibly to execute the laws. Where “human” laws fail, however, he often takes vengeance into his own hands, and by the plague, or some signal judgments, sweeps the guilty into eternity.

Gill
for he beareth not the sword in vain. The "sword" is an emblem of the power of life and death, the civil magistrate is invested with, and includes all sorts of punishment he has a right to inflict; and this power is not lodged in him in vain; he may and ought to make use of it at proper times, and upon proper persons:

That's just the first two I looked up.  Now before you go getting pedantic on me, in so far as the verse "does not REQUIRE" the death penalty, you are correct.  But it certainly permits it, clearly.  To say otherwise is plain foolish.

Life is God's to give and God's to take. When you (or a system of government) hear(s) the express word of God telling you to take a life, then we can talk.

lol, "then we can talk".  What are you, in the 6th grade.  Learn to communicate without the sassy-britches.

God conferred the authority to take life in the OT, and the NT.  I'm not wasting much more time developing those thoughts because I'm sure you are aware of the salient arguments that have been made for centuries by the Christian church in favor of such views.