Death Penalty?

[bruinboy]

I am against the death penalty, except in the cases of IFBx preeeecher's molesting kids. 

Kidding............... just a little bit. 

Now that we have politics totally ruining our healthcare system, they might as well, finish off the legal system at the same time.  Like they say, if you want justice, go to the whore house, if you want a screwing, go to the courthouse. 

 

[Darkwing Duck]

I'm sorry. I don't see support of the death penalty in Romans 13? Is there a specific verse? Or were you speaking generically because Romans 13 teaches us to submit to government and the death penalty is a government law. (And if so would you use this same argument to agree with abortion?)

Rom 13:4  For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

The words "beareth the sword" have direct bearing on the discussion of the death penalty.

Honestly, I can't imagine how someone can read the story of Cain, Moses, etc. and think that God favors the death penalty.

What do you think of the clear Old Testament commands God gave to do that very thing?

The same thing I think about all the other OT commands - not wearing two different types of material, sacrificing animals, etc.

So you think there is no moral bearing that ought to be applied from OT teachings?  Why did you bring OT examples into the discussion?

I just think God's actions speak louder than his words.

 

[rsc2a]

Should we not base our government on the teachings of Jesus as well as our personal lives?

You're advocating a theocracy?

Yes. A strongly libertarian leaning individual is advocating for a theocracy.  :

Either that or I'm fundamentally opposed to the idea of Babylon being our great guiding light when it comes to the system I prefer...something about "the world". I much prefer the kingdom of God as our guiding light.

But just so we are clear: you do realize that you just implicitly stated that we should ignore the teachings of Jesus, right?

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

Fantastic! Can you provide examples of how he engaged with others by referring to them as idiots?

You are so loose with words it's hard to have meaningful conversation.  I said you are obtuse, because you are.  I never called you an idiot.[/quote]

Tomato. Tomato.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

The government does "bear the sword". There is absolutely nothing in that idiom to require a death penalty.

That's just the first two I looked up.  Now before you go getting pedantic on me, in so far as the verse "does not REQUIRE" the death penalty, you are correct.  But it certainly permits it, clearly.  To say otherwise is plain foolish.[/quote]

<snips out a bunch of extra-Biblical commentary>

Now let's look at commentary from the Bible:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

Life is God's to give and God's to take. When you (or a system of government) hear(s) the express word of God telling you to take a life, then we can talk.

lol, "then we can talk".  What are you, in the 6th grade.  Learn to communicate without the sassy-britches.

God conferred the authority to take life in the OT, and the NT.  I'm not wasting much more time developing those thoughts because I'm sure you are aware of the salient arguments that have been made for centuries by the Christian church in favor of such views.[/quote]

God explicitly gave the rules for the death penalty in the OT. Furthermore, it was for a country that was supposed to be a theocracy.

In the NT, God gives no such rules. And, I'm very much aware of the arguments put forth "for centuries by the Christian church in favor of such views". It was the same Christian church that was advocating for the burning of "heretics". I'm also aware of the arguments since the NT times for non-violence. And, most importantly, I'm aware of the words of Jesus. But, as I told someone the other day, perhaps the best form of idolatry is political idolatry. Of course, I followed this up by pointing out that nothing more disgusting that intentionally crushing the downtrodden "in the name of Jesus."

 

[ChuckBob]

Guy's, I've practiced criminal law since the summer of 84. The system was bad then and it's worse now. I've had truly innocent clients sent to prison because of lying or stupid "eye witnesses." Death penalty cases tend to be political opportunities for DA's that have to stand for reelection. It's just too messed up to take the chance. Romans 13 really hasn't got a thing to do with it.

ChuckBob

 

[ALAYMAN]

.... Of course, I followed this up by pointing out that nothing more disgusting that intentionally crushing the downtrodden "in the name of Jesus."

This last sentence perfectly illustrates why it is difficult to take you serious.  To equate the potential accidental death via the electric chair of a very small percentage of innocents to "intentionally crushing the downtrodden" is either liberal ideology gone amuck, or just plain stupidity.

 

[rsc2a]

.... Of course, I followed this up by pointing out that nothing more disgusting that intentionally crushing the downtrodden "in the name of Jesus."

This last sentence perfectly illustrates why it is difficult to take you serious.  To equate the potential accidental death via the electric chair of a very small percentage of innocents to "intentionally crushing the downtrodden" is either liberal ideology gone amuck, or just plain stupidity.

Really?  Do a brief study on sentencing and race in the United States, and show me how this is just. About two minutes on google should disapprove you of this notion.

 

[Ransom]

Should we not base our government on the teachings of Jesus as well as our personal lives?

If we're going to base our government on the Scriptures, how about we consider all the Scriptures, and not just the ones that some publishers print in red for some annoying reason?

After all, Red-Letter Jesus hand-picked the guys who wrote the rest of the New Testament, and gave them the authority to interpret his own teaching as well as rule on matters he didn't specifically address.

 

[Ransom]

Apparently. Unless you want to tell me that he killed Cain the murderer, David the adulterer, etc.

Just because the death penalty is mandated, does that mean it must be applied in every instance and that there is no room for less severe punishments?

Conversely, does the fact that some murderers aren't executed automatically deny that the death penaltiy can be just?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Should we not base our government on the teachings of Jesus as well as our personal lives?

If we're going to base our government on the Scriptures, how about we consider all the Scriptures, and not just the ones that some publishers print in red for some annoying reason?

After all, Red-Letter Jesus hand-picked the guys who wrote the rest of the New Testament, and gave them the authority to interpret his own teaching as well as rule on matters he didn't specifically address.

And what kind of evidence do you have that shows the "Red-Letter Jesus" handpicked only those particular penmen and only those specific writings?

 

[Ransom]

And what kind of evidence do you have that shows the "Red-Letter Jesus" handpicked only those particular penmen and only those specific writings?

Sorry, not interested in arguing biblical justice with someone who tries to pit the Bible against itself. Go find another sucker.

 

[rsc2a]

Should we not base our government on the teachings of Jesus as well as our personal lives?

If we're going to base our government on the Scriptures, how about we consider all the Scriptures, and not just the ones that some publishers print in red for some annoying reason?

After all, Red-Letter Jesus hand-picked the guys who wrote the rest of the New Testament, and gave them the authority to interpret his own teaching as well as rule on matters he didn't specifically address.

Sure. Now if you could show me where any of those other writers advocated for the death penalty, I'll be happy to consider it. If you'd like, I can show you dozens and dozens of places where those writers talk about mercy, grace, charity, and forgiveness.

[quote author=Ransom][quote author=Darkwing Duck]Apparently. Unless you want to tell me that he killed Cain the murderer, David the adulterer, etc.
[/quote]

Just because the death penalty is mandated, does that mean it must be applied in every instance and that there is no room for less severe punishments?[/quote]

Precisely.

[quote author=Ransom]Conversely, does the fact that some murderers aren't executed automatically deny that the death penaltiy can be just?[/quote]

No, but the fact that whether or not you receive the death penalty may depend on the amount of melanin in your skin makes it unjust. The fact that the death penalty is used for threatening people into false plea deals makes it unjust. The fact that there is a chance that even one innocent person could be falsely executed makes it unjust...and that also makes it abhorrent. Couple that with a God who explicitly told us to forgo an eye for an eye, and I don't see how you can justify the death penalty as a Christian.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

And what kind of evidence do you have that shows the "Red-Letter Jesus" handpicked only those particular penmen and only those specific writings?

Sorry, not interested in arguing biblical justice with someone who tries to pit the Bible against itself. Go find another sucker.

Exactly what is to be expected to be said when one has no true "biblical" answer.

 

[Ransom]

Sure. Now if you could show me where any of those other writers advocated for the death penalty, I'll be happy to consider it.

Silence on an issue does not imply either agreement or disagreement. Your argument is pointless.

Beyond that, Paul assumes capital punishment as a function of government, calling them "the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer" (Rom. 13:4).

If you'd like, I can show you dozens and dozens of places where those writers talk about mercy, grace, charity, and forgiveness.

Right, because if you describe a basketball as round, it can't possibly be orange as well.

No, but the fact that whether or not you receive the death penalty may depend on the amount of melanin in your skin makes it unjust.

Fallible and fallen people abusing a just penalty given by a just God does not render the penalty in itself unjust.

 

[Ransom]

Exactly what is to be expected to be said when one has no true "biblical" answer.

But I do have an answer, and you still have your unbelief in the integrity of God-breathed scripture.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

And what kind of evidence do you have that shows the "Red-Letter Jesus" handpicked only those particular penmen and only those specific writings?

Sorry, not interested in arguing biblical justice with someone who tries to pit the Bible against itself. Go find another sucker.

Exactly what is to be expected to be said when one has no true "biblical" answer.

Really? You want a "Biblical" answer? How can someone discuss any Bible topic with you when you only believe a small part of the Bible. (my understanding is that you find the writings of Paul extra-Biblical. There is clearly no way for someone to have a debate/argument/conversation with you about any topic with that much difference in belief.)

 

[christundivided]

And what kind of evidence do you have that shows the "Red-Letter Jesus" handpicked only those particular penmen and only those specific writings?

Sorry, not interested in arguing biblical justice with someone who tries to pit the Bible against itself. Go find another sucker.

Exactly what is to be expected to be said when one has no true "biblical" answer.

Gen 9:6  Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

And what kind of evidence do you have that shows the "Red-Letter Jesus" handpicked only those particular penmen and only those specific writings?

Sorry, not interested in arguing biblical justice with someone who tries to pit the Bible against itself. Go find another sucker.

Exactly what is to be expected to be said when one has no true "biblical" answer.

Really? You want a "Biblical" answer? How can someone discuss any Bible topic with you when you only believe a small part of the Bible. (my understanding is that you find the writings of Paul extra-Biblical. There is clearly no way for someone to have a debate/argument/conversation with you about any topic with that much difference in belief.)

Even Paul didn't advocate a 66-book canon as being inspired by God. He claims (correctly) that some portions are "God-breathed" but never mentions any NT passage in that vein.

I'm willing to converse.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

And what kind of evidence do you have that shows the "Red-Letter Jesus" handpicked only those particular penmen and only those specific writings?

Sorry, not interested in arguing biblical justice with someone who tries to pit the Bible against itself. Go find another sucker.

Exactly what is to be expected to be said when one has no true "biblical" answer.

Gen 9:6  Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

War includes the shedding of man's blood so I guess you believe all soldiers who kill in warfare should be executed.

Got it.

Oh, and I wasn't talking to Ransom about the death penalty. I actually do believe there are times/situations where it should be practiced. So you might want to read what Ransom and I were talking about (the topic of Jesus hand-picking OT penmen) instead of suggesting I am totally against the death penalty or asking for OT verses.

 

[christundivided]

And what kind of evidence do you have that shows the "Red-Letter Jesus" handpicked only those particular penmen and only those specific writings?

Sorry, not interested in arguing biblical justice with someone who tries to pit the Bible against itself. Go find another sucker.

Exactly what is to be expected to be said when one has no true "biblical" answer.

Gen 9:6  Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

War includes the shedding of man's blood so I guess you believe all soldiers who kill in warfare should be executed.

Got it.

Oh, and I wasn't talking to Ransom about the death penalty. I actually do believe there are times/situations where it should be practiced. So you might want to read what Ransom and I were talking about (the topic of Jesus hand-picking OT penmen) instead of suggesting I am totally against the death penalty or asking for OT verses.

I read part of it before I commented. I must have missed something...

Either way, Gen 9:6 isn't talking specifically of "war". Even under the law.... you have a judge that can either go by the "letter of the law" or make a decision that might "skirt" the law. There has been a situation in which one verse or sentence was all there is to say about much of anything. Gen 9:6 is setting a standard for the judgement of murder. No, this would not take in consideration in which a nation or group of people defended themselves from "murders" by killing those who sought to kill them.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

And what kind of evidence do you have that shows the "Red-Letter Jesus" handpicked only those particular penmen and only those specific writings?

Sorry, not interested in arguing biblical justice with someone who tries to pit the Bible against itself. Go find another sucker.

Exactly what is to be expected to be said when one has no true "biblical" answer.

Gen 9:6  Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

War includes the shedding of man's blood so I guess you believe all soldiers who kill in warfare should be executed.

Got it.

Oh, and I wasn't talking to Ransom about the death penalty. I actually do believe there are times/situations where it should be practiced. So you might want to read what Ransom and I were talking about (the topic of Jesus hand-picking OT penmen) instead of suggesting I am totally against the death penalty or asking for OT verses.

I read part of it before I commented. I must have missed something...

Either way, Gen 9:6 isn't talking specifically of "war". Even under the law.... you have a judge that can either go by the "letter of the law" or make a decision that might "skirt" the law. There has been a situation in which one verse or sentence was all there is to say about much of anything. Gen 9:6 is setting a standard for the judgement of murder. No, this would not take in consideration in which a nation or group of people defended themselves from "murders" by killing those who sought to kill them.

Actually, the passage is about taking of human life NOT just murder. Unless you honestly believe that animals can murder humans.

Look at the verse before:

And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man.

Why was there a city of refuge recorded in the OT? Because even accidental taking of a human life mandated the right for revenge.

So let me ask you this: should a teenage girl who gets pregnant and has an abortion before her parents find out be executed for murder when it become exposed? Does Genesis 9:6 mandate her execution? Yes or no.