Does Love = Coersion

[Recovering IFB]

How much time have you spent reading after Calvin? Compare that to the time you've spent establishing your own theology!!!

About 4/5 hrs a week along with other things I read. in case you're wondering.

I never said I had something new. I have spent many years establishing my own theology. I did the work. I made it my own. I didn't stand on the work of others. I built it precept upon precept.

And I didn"t?? without knowing anything about me? Wow, you sure know how to read people and know their most intimate thoughts, that's quite a skill you have...........

 

[Recovering IFB]

[quote author=The Rogue Tomato]O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Yes, praise God.  He knows what he's doing, and I trust him with it.

I'm sorry but if I believed this I would absolutely not have children. Sorry.

You don't believe a direct quote from Scripture?
[/quote]
It's called creating God in his own image. 

 

[Biker]

let’s just remember the foundation God laid for us prior

BY the things which were made, so they are WITHOUT EXCUSE . Rom 1:20

God reveals his eternal, divine invisible attributes & his power thru his creation equally to ALL OF US. It is universal. Clearly Seen through his creation thus we are “without excuse”
Verse in FULL

Romans 1:20-21 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen,
being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Again so when they knew God, they were already “without excuse”
They
1. Glorified Him Not AS GOD
2. Neither were thankful
3. Became Vain in their imaginations

And THEN and only THEN…did GOD
4. Darkened their hearts.


We ALL understand our Creators eternal, invisible attributes, power, & divine nature because he makes it clearly seen. 

Finishing Romans verses above..“Because of this^^ WHEN they knew God, there was a different outcome


Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image
in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.24 Therefore God gave them over
in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25
For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.


They were NOT thankful but instead vain in their own imaginations. Then, and only then… were their foolish hearts darkened.
Given over to their own lusts to worship the creature rather than the Creator.

 

[praise_yeshua]

How much time have you spent reading after Calvin? Compare that to the time you've spent establishing your own theology!!!

About 4/5 hrs a week along with other things I read. in case you're wondering.

I never said I had something new. I have spent many years establishing my own theology. I did the work. I made it my own. I didn't stand on the work of others. I built it precept upon precept.

And I didn"t?? without knowing anything about me? Wow, you sure know how to read people and know their most intimate thoughts, that's quite a skill you have...........

Have you noticed that Ransom is just throwing "one liners" like rs2a? There's a reason for this. He knows he doesn't have a counterargument. He knows that true Love isn't coerced. He knows it.

You have FAILED to even deal with the object of the thread. Prove that true love involves coercion.

Show us just how "skilled" you really are....

 

[Bruh]

[quote author=The Rogue Tomato]O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Yes, praise God.  He knows what he's doing, and I trust him with it.

I'm sorry but if I believed this I would absolutely not have children. Sorry.

You don't believe a direct quote from Scripture?

It's called creating God in his own image.
[/quote]

I don't believe God created some for the sole purpose of sending them to hell.  And I sure do not believe Scripture teaches this...   

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

[quote author=The Rogue Tomato]O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Yes, praise God.  He knows what he's doing, and I trust him with it.

I'm sorry but if I believed this I would absolutely not have children. Sorry.

You don't believe a direct quote from Scripture?

It's called creating God in his own image.

I don't believe God created some for the sole purpose of sending them to hell.  And I sure do not believe Scripture teaches this... 
[/quote]

Prov 16:4 The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

 

[praise_yeshua]

[quote author=The Rogue Tomato]O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Yes, praise God.  He knows what he's doing, and I trust him with it.

I'm sorry but if I believed this I would absolutely not have children. Sorry.

You don't believe a direct quote from Scripture?

It's called creating God in his own image.

I don't believe God created some for the sole purpose of sending them to hell.  And I sure do not believe Scripture teaches this... 

Prov 16:4 The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
[/quote]

Proverbs 16:4 doesn't even exist in the Old Greek text. I imagine....  you didn't know that?

The old Greek text of Proverbs 16 predates any MT manuscript by hundreds of years. Its an addition from the mind of a Pharisee.

 

[subllibrm]

[quote author=The Rogue Tomato]O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Yes, praise God.  He knows what he's doing, and I trust him with it.

I'm sorry but if I believed this I would absolutely not have children. Sorry.

You don't believe a direct quote from Scripture?

It's called creating God in his own image.

I don't believe God created some for the sole purpose of sending them to hell.  And I sure do not believe Scripture teaches this... 

Prov 16:4 The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Proverbs 16:4 doesn't even exist in the Old Greek text. I imagine....  you didn't know that?

The old Greek text of Proverbs 16 predates any MT manuscript by hundreds of years. Its an addition from the mind of a Pharisee.
[/quote]

Weren't the Proverbs written in Hebrew?


Proverbs 16:4King James Version (KJV)

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Now we need BP, BB ans Avery to come explain (away?) why this verse is in the KJV.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

[quote author=The Rogue Tomato]O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Yes, praise God.  He knows what he's doing, and I trust him with it.

I'm sorry but if I believed this I would absolutely not have children. Sorry.

You don't believe a direct quote from Scripture?

It's called creating God in his own image.

I don't believe God created some for the sole purpose of sending them to hell.  And I sure do not believe Scripture teaches this... 

Prov 16:4 The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Proverbs 16:4 doesn't even exist in the Old Greek text. I imagine....  you didn't know that?

The old Greek text of Proverbs 16 predates any MT manuscript by hundreds of years. Its an addition from the mind of a Pharisee.

Weren't the Proverbs written in Hebrew?


Proverbs 16:4King James Version (KJV)

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Now we need BP, BB ans Avery to come explain (away?) why this verse is in the KJV.
[/quote]

Free willers need an industrial sized tub of white-out to make their theology work. 

 

[Ransom]

Have you noticed that Ransom is just throwing "one liners" like rs2a? There's a reason for this. He knows he doesn't have a counterargument.

Actually, I just don't take you seriously.

He knows that true Love isn't coerced. He knows it.

Of course I know it. On the other hand, if you think it's an actual argument against Calvinism, then you're kind of a joke anyway, and not worth putting any serious thought into.

You have FAILED to even deal with the object of the thread. Prove that true love involves coercion.

"Failed" presupposes "gave a crap," as well as "tried."

 

[praise_yeshua]

[quote author=The Rogue Tomato]O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Yes, praise God.  He knows what he's doing, and I trust him with it.

I'm sorry but if I believed this I would absolutely not have children. Sorry.

You don't believe a direct quote from Scripture?

It's called creating God in his own image.

I don't believe God created some for the sole purpose of sending them to hell.  And I sure do not believe Scripture teaches this... 

Prov 16:4 The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Proverbs 16:4 doesn't even exist in the Old Greek text. I imagine....  you didn't know that?

The old Greek text of Proverbs 16 predates any MT manuscript by hundreds of years. Its an addition from the mind of a Pharisee.

Weren't the Proverbs written in Hebrew?


Proverbs 16:4King James Version (KJV)

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Now we need BP, BB ans Avery to come explain (away?) why this verse is in the KJV.
[/quote]

In all honesty, who knows who wrote Proverbs 16. "Proverbs", though attributed to "Solomon" weren't necessarily written by Solomon... Himself. More likely than not.... there are several authors involved over the course of many many years. The book of "Proverbs" is rather tricky collection of writings.

 

[praise_yeshua]

[quote author=The Rogue Tomato]O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Yes, praise God.  He knows what he's doing, and I trust him with it.

I'm sorry but if I believed this I would absolutely not have children. Sorry.

You don't believe a direct quote from Scripture?

It's called creating God in his own image.

I don't believe God created some for the sole purpose of sending them to hell.  And I sure do not believe Scripture teaches this... 

Prov 16:4 The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Proverbs 16:4 doesn't even exist in the Old Greek text. I imagine....  you didn't know that?

The old Greek text of Proverbs 16 predates any MT manuscript by hundreds of years. Its an addition from the mind of a Pharisee.

Weren't the Proverbs written in Hebrew?


Proverbs 16:4King James Version (KJV)

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Now we need BP, BB ans Avery to come explain (away?) why this verse is in the KJV.

Free willers need an industrial sized tub of white-out to make their theology work. 
[/quote]

I hear you.....

If you've studied the texts of the Scripture for some time......Its rather obvious that over zealous "Pharisee" types..... did their best to interject their theology at certain places within the texts themselves. You might want to pay attention to condemnation of Jesus toward the "Scribes". Give some thought to "why" He would include them.

Its rather poor theology to base one's beliefs entirely on something written in Proverbs.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Have you noticed that Ransom is just throwing "one liners" like rs2a? There's a reason for this. He knows he doesn't have a counterargument.

Actually, I just don't take you seriously.

Sure you don't.

Of course I know it. On the other hand, if you think it's an actual argument against Calvinism, then you're kind of a joke anyway, and not worth putting any serious thought into.

I'm glad you agree. I'm disappointed you can't make the connection to Calvinism. Then again, its always more difficult to admit our own faults than to bash others for their lack of understanding. You're taking the easy way out.

"Failed" presupposes "gave a crap," as well as "tried."

"Failed" involves willful inaction. Surely you can't argue otherwise.

 

[Recovering IFB]

How much time have you spent reading after Calvin? Compare that to the time you've spent establishing your own theology!!!

About 4/5 hrs a week along with other things I read. in case you're wondering.

I never said I had something new. I have spent many years establishing my own theology. I did the work. I made it my own. I didn't stand on the work of others. I built it precept upon precept.

And I didn"t?? without knowing anything about me? Wow, you sure know how to read people and know their most intimate thoughts, that's quite a skill you have...........

Have you noticed that Ransom is just throwing "one liners" like rs2a? There's a reason for this. He knows he doesn't have a counterargument. He knows that true Love isn't coerced. He knows it.

You have FAILED to even deal with the object of the thread. Prove that true love involves coercion.

Show us just how "skilled" you really are....

We have shown you Scripture and answered yours, YOU haven't done as such

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=praise_yeshua]Its rather poor theology to base one's beliefs entirely on something written in Proverbs.
[/quote]

"I can make things up and completely ignore reality!

Oh yes...I can also dismiss any passages I don't like as author/editor bias."

 

[subllibrm]

How much time have you spent reading after Calvin? Compare that to the time you've spent establishing your own theology!!!

About 4/5 hrs a week along with other things I read. in case you're wondering.

I never said I had something new. I have spent many years establishing my own theology. I did the work. I made it my own. I didn't stand on the work of others. I built it precept upon precept.

And I didn"t?? without knowing anything about me? Wow, you sure know how to read people and know their most intimate thoughts, that's quite a skill you have...........

Have you noticed that Ransom is just throwing "one liners" like rs2a? There's a reason for this. He knows he doesn't have a counterargument. He knows that true Love isn't coerced. He knows it.

You have FAILED to even deal with the object of the thread. Prove that true love involves coercion.

Show us just how "skilled" you really are....

We have shown you Scripture and answered yours, YOU haven't done as such

He has been too busy misrepresenting calvinism.

 

[praise_yeshua]

[quote author=praise_yeshua]Its rather poor theology to base one's beliefs entirely on something written in Proverbs.

"I can make things up and completely ignore reality!

Oh yes...I can also dismiss any passages I don't like as author/editor bias."
[/quote]

I gave evidence. I don't particularly care what you think about it. Deal with the evidence or stay out of it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

How much time have you spent reading after Calvin? Compare that to the time you've spent establishing your own theology!!!

About 4/5 hrs a week along with other things I read. in case you're wondering.

I never said I had something new. I have spent many years establishing my own theology. I did the work. I made it my own. I didn't stand on the work of others. I built it precept upon precept.

And I didn"t?? without knowing anything about me? Wow, you sure know how to read people and know their most intimate thoughts, that's quite a skill you have...........

Have you noticed that Ransom is just throwing "one liners" like rs2a? There's a reason for this. He knows he doesn't have a counterargument. He knows that true Love isn't coerced. He knows it.

You have FAILED to even deal with the object of the thread. Prove that true love involves coercion.

Show us just how "skilled" you really are....

We have shown you Scripture and answered yours, YOU haven't done as such

He has been too busy misrepresenting calvinism.

Are you going to really join the discussion? I'd be glad to answer this charge if you're really going to hang around to discuss the issue. Otherwise, I'll just consider it "noise".

 

[praise_yeshua]

How much time have you spent reading after Calvin? Compare that to the time you've spent establishing your own theology!!!

About 4/5 hrs a week along with other things I read. in case you're wondering.

I never said I had something new. I have spent many years establishing my own theology. I did the work. I made it my own. I didn't stand on the work of others. I built it precept upon precept.

And I didn"t?? without knowing anything about me? Wow, you sure know how to read people and know their most intimate thoughts, that's quite a skill you have...........

Have you noticed that Ransom is just throwing "one liners" like rs2a? There's a reason for this. He knows he doesn't have a counterargument. He knows that true Love isn't coerced. He knows it.

You have FAILED to even deal with the object of the thread. Prove that true love involves coercion.

Show us just how "skilled" you really are....

We have shown you Scripture and answered yours, YOU haven't done as such

Where have you answered?

You haven't even answered the question in the title of the thread. No one has.... Well, Ransom.... kinda just did.

 

[Ransom]

Basically, once I discovered that CU was not attempting to argue against any belief system I actually held to (no matter what he said it was named), it became clear that the onus to refute him did not rest upon myself. As I said on another thread some months ago, now I just read him for the lulz.