Does Love = Coersion

[Bruh]

[quote author=The Rogue Tomato]O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Yes, praise God.  He knows what he's doing, and I trust him with it.

I'm sorry but if I believed this I would absolutely not have children. Sorry.

You don't believe a direct quote from Scripture?

It's called creating God in his own image.

I don't believe God created some for the sole purpose of sending them to hell.  And I sure do not believe Scripture teaches this... 

Prov 16:4 The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Proverbs 16:4 doesn't even exist in the Old Greek text. I imagine....  you didn't know that?

The old Greek text of Proverbs 16 predates any MT manuscript by hundreds of years. Its an addition from the mind of a Pharisee.

Weren't the Proverbs written in Hebrew?


Proverbs 16:4King James Version (KJV)

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Now we need BP, BB ans Avery to come explain (away?) why this verse is in the KJV.

Free willers need an industrial sized tub of white-out to make their theology work. 
[/quote]

Well if your kids go to hell Praise God.

Because if He made mine for the sole purpose to send them to hell I believe I have a rite to take issue with Him.

But I don't believe this.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Basically, once I discovered that CU was not attempting to argue against any belief system I actually held to (no matter what he said it was named), it became clear that the onus to refute him did not rest upon myself. As I said on another thread some months ago, now I just read him for the lulz.

What an imagination!!!

You've really fallen off your game. I get the sense, that you really don't care for theology anymore. That the "shine" is worn off your little toy...."theology".

 

[praise_yeshua]

Because if He made mine for the sole purpose to send them to hell I believe I have a rite to take issue with Him.

Any parent with an ounce of natural affection.... would do the same.

That's one of the reasons I questioned the parenting of TRT and RG.

I heard BR Lakin tell the story of a women who said to him "If my son is in hell, I want to be with my son".

I thought to myself, any parent would. Of course... BR Lakin didn't get it.

 

[Recovering IFB]

How much time have you spent reading after Calvin? Compare that to the time you've spent establishing your own theology!!!

About 4/5 hrs a week along with other things I read. in case you're wondering.

I never said I had something new. I have spent many years establishing my own theology. I did the work. I made it my own. I didn't stand on the work of others. I built it precept upon precept.

And I didn"t?? without knowing anything about me? Wow, you sure know how to read people and know their most intimate thoughts, that's quite a skill you have...........

Have you noticed that Ransom is just throwing "one liners" like rs2a? There's a reason for this. He knows he doesn't have a counterargument. He knows that true Love isn't coerced. He knows it.

You have FAILED to even deal with the object of the thread. Prove that true love involves coercion.

Show us just how "skilled" you really are....

We have shown you Scripture and answered yours, YOU haven't done as such

Where have you answered?

You haven't even answered the question in the title of the thread. No one has.... Well, Ransom.... kinda just did.

You're not paying attention, I answered you on the first reply.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Because if He made mine for the sole purpose to send them to hell I believe I have a rite to take issue with Him.

Does your rite involve sacrificing chickens?

You can believe whatever you want to believe.  Scripture says you have no right. 

 

[Recovering IFB]

Because if He made mine for the sole purpose to send them to hell I believe I have a rite to take issue with Him.

Any parent with an ounce of natural affection.... would do the same.

That's one of the reasons I questioned the parenting of TRT and RG.

I heard BR Lakin tell the story of a women who said to him "If my son is in hell, I want to be with my son".

I thought to myself, any parent would. Of course... BR Lakin didn't get it.

Then you and Bruh have put your children before God. You have no idea anyhow If they would get saved anyway, are you able to see into the future?

 

[Ransom]

What an imagination!!!

Why would I need to be overly imaginative to know a) what I believe; and b) that what you are arguing against doesn't resemble it?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Because if He made mine for the sole purpose to send them to hell I believe I have a rite to take issue with Him.

Any parent with an ounce of natural affection.... would do the same.

That's one of the reasons I questioned the parenting of TRT and RG.

I heard BR Lakin tell the story of a women who said to him "If my son is in hell, I want to be with my son".

I thought to myself, any parent would. Of course... BR Lakin didn't get it.

That woman loves her child more than she loves God.  C.S. Lewis wrote about such in The Great Divorce.  It's a good read.

Jesus said, “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple."

 

[rsc2a]

CU is trying to argue that your scaly, single-eyed fanged 10' koala bear isn't cuddly.

I don't even have to like koala bears to recognize that his argument is absurd.

 

[Bruh]

Because if He made mine for the sole purpose to send them to hell I believe I have a rite to take issue with Him.

Does your rite involve sacrificing chickens?

You can believe whatever you want to believe.  Scripture says you have no right.

That's the thing I don't believe scripture teaches this.

 

[Recovering IFB]

Because if He made mine for the sole purpose to send them to hell I believe I have a rite to take issue with Him.

Does your rite involve sacrificing chickens?

You can believe whatever you want to believe.  Scripture says you have no right.

That's the thing I don't believe scripture teaches this.

Did you read what TRT posted, can you exegete those verses for us then?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

CU is trying to argue that your scaly, single-eyed fanged 10' koala bear isn't cuddly.

I don't even have to like koala bears to recognize that his argument is absurd.

The whole notion of coerced love is absurd.  God opening our eyes and ears is not equivalent to forcing love upon us.  But love will follow when we're made aware of the truth.  I love God because he first loved me. 

Yes, even I have used the analogy of being dragged kicking and screaming to God.  But that's just a metaphor for the fact that I knew I hated God until he regenerated me.  I can't speak for others, but at least when I've said it, I was fully aware that I wasn't really being forced to love God against my will.  It just seemed like an apt description because it was so contrary to my former nature. 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Because if He made mine for the sole purpose to send them to hell I believe I have a rite to take issue with Him.

Does your rite involve sacrificing chickens?

You can believe whatever you want to believe.  Scripture says you have no right.

That's the thing I don't believe scripture teaches this.

It teaches this plainly.

O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Because if He made mine for the sole purpose to send them to hell I believe I have a rite to take issue with Him.

Any parent with an ounce of natural affection.... would do the same.

That's one of the reasons I questioned the parenting of TRT and RG.

I heard BR Lakin tell the story of a women who said to him "If my son is in hell, I want to be with my son".

I thought to myself, any parent would. Of course... BR Lakin didn't get it.

That woman loves her child more than she loves God.  C.S. Lewis wrote about such in The Great Divorce.  It's a good read.

Jesus said, “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple."

You obviously love C.S. Lewis more than you love God..... C.S. Lewis could write some rather good FANTASY novels. Theology, not so much.

Who said you can't LOVE BOTH? The very LOVE of GOD makes you LOVE ...... YOUR CHILDREN!!!!

You can't reason with a Calvinist. Its impossible.

 

[Bruh]

Because if He made mine for the sole purpose to send them to hell I believe I have a rite to take issue with Him.

Does your rite involve sacrificing chickens?

You can believe whatever you want to believe.  Scripture says you have no right.

That's the thing I don't believe scripture teaches this.

Did you read what TRT posted, can you exegete those verses for us then?

No, sorry I don't have time. All I have time for for the most part is bullet points.

 

[praise_yeshua]

CU is trying to argue that your scaly, single-eyed fanged 10' koala bear isn't cuddly.

I don't even have to like koala bears to recognize that his argument is absurd.

The whole notion of coerced love is absurd.  God opening our eyes and ears is not equivalent to forcing love upon us.  But love will follow when we're made aware of the truth.  I love God because he first loved me. 

Yes, even I have used the analogy of being dragged kicking and screaming to God.  But that's just a metaphor for the fact that I knew I hated God until he regenerated me.  I can't speak for others, but at least when I've said it, I was fully aware that I wasn't really being forced to love God against my will.  It just sort of felt that way, because it was so contrary to my former nature.

So you finally decide to say something about the OP? Geesh...

 

[praise_yeshua]

How much time have you spent reading after Calvin? Compare that to the time you've spent establishing your own theology!!!

About 4/5 hrs a week along with other things I read. in case you're wondering.

I never said I had something new. I have spent many years establishing my own theology. I did the work. I made it my own. I didn't stand on the work of others. I built it precept upon precept.

And I didn"t?? without knowing anything about me? Wow, you sure know how to read people and know their most intimate thoughts, that's quite a skill you have...........

Have you noticed that Ransom is just throwing "one liners" like rs2a? There's a reason for this. He knows he doesn't have a counterargument. He knows that true Love isn't coerced. He knows it.

You have FAILED to even deal with the object of the thread. Prove that true love involves coercion.

Show us just how "skilled" you really are....

We have shown you Scripture and answered yours, YOU haven't done as such

Where have you answered?

You haven't even answered the question in the title of the thread. No one has.... Well, Ransom.... kinda just did.

You're not paying attention, I answered you on the first reply.

Liar. Here is your first reply

http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/does-love-coersion/msg111037/#msg111037

 

[praise_yeshua]

The whole notion of coerced love is absurd.  God opening our eyes and ears is not equivalent to forcing love upon us.  But love will follow when we're made aware of the truth.  I love God because he first loved me. 

Yes, even I have used the analogy of being dragged kicking and screaming to God.  But that's just a metaphor for the fact that I knew I hated God until he regenerated me.  I can't speak for others, but at least when I've said it, I was fully aware that I wasn't really being forced to love God against my will.  It just seemed like an apt description because it was so contrary to my former nature.

If God wasn't acting in "LOVE" to "open in your ears".... Just what characteristics of His Divine Nature was He displaying?

Your attempts to "disconnect" God actions in opening "your ears" .........from "God's Love" are ridiculous.

By the way... I wasn't talking about your LOVE. I was talking about God's.

I was fully aware that I wasn't really being forced to love God against my will

That's not what Calvin said. I posted Calvin's quote. Are you saying Calvin is wrong?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Again. Here is Calvin on his conversion.

God by a sudden conversion subdued and brought my mind to a teachable frame

 

[praise_yeshua]

Because if He made mine for the sole purpose to send them to hell I believe I have a rite to take issue with Him.

Does your rite involve sacrificing chickens?

You can believe whatever you want to believe.  Scripture says you have no right.

That's the thing I don't believe scripture teaches this.

It teaches this plainly.

O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I've explained the verses to rsca before. Maybe you missed it.

http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/holy-spirit-questions/msg107243/#msg107243

I can extend the explanation if you're willing to deal with it.