Does Love = Coersion

[Recovering IFB]

How much time have you spent reading after Calvin? Compare that to the time you've spent establishing your own theology!!!

About 4/5 hrs a week along with other things I read. in case you're wondering.

I never said I had something new. I have spent many years establishing my own theology. I did the work. I made it my own. I didn't stand on the work of others. I built it precept upon precept.

And I didn"t?? without knowing anything about me? Wow, you sure know how to read people and know their most intimate thoughts, that's quite a skill you have...........

Have you noticed that Ransom is just throwing "one liners" like rs2a? There's a reason for this. He knows he doesn't have a counterargument. He knows that true Love isn't coerced. He knows it.

You have FAILED to even deal with the object of the thread. Prove that true love involves coercion.

Show us just how "skilled" you really are....

We have shown you Scripture and answered yours, YOU haven't done as such

Where have you answered?

You haven't even answered the question in the title of the thread. No one has.... Well, Ransom.... kinda just did.

You're not paying attention, I answered you on the first reply.

Liar. Here is your first reply

http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/does-love-coersion/msg111037/#msg111037

That's my answer, sorry you don't agree with it but there it is.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Because if He made mine for the sole purpose to send them to hell I believe I have a rite to take issue with Him.

Any parent with an ounce of natural affection.... would do the same.

That's one of the reasons I questioned the parenting of TRT and RG.

I heard BR Lakin tell the story of a women who said to him "If my son is in hell, I want to be with my son".

I thought to myself, any parent would. Of course... BR Lakin didn't get it.

That woman loves her child more than she loves God.  C.S. Lewis wrote about such in The Great Divorce.  It's a good read.

Jesus said, “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple."

You obviously love C.S. Lewis more than you love God..... C.S. Lewis could write some rather good FANTASY novels. Theology, not so much.

Who said you can't LOVE BOTH? The very LOVE of GOD makes you LOVE ...... YOUR CHILDREN!!!!

You can't reason with a Calvinist. Its impossible.

No, you can't love both EQUALLY, or love your child so much more that you're willing to spend eternity in hell with your child rather than spend eternity in heaven with God. 

So you're just going to ignore what Jesus said?  Well, that's up to your free will. 

 

[Recovering IFB]

Because if He made mine for the sole purpose to send them to hell I believe I have a rite to take issue with Him.

Does your rite involve sacrificing chickens?

You can believe whatever you want to believe.  Scripture says you have no right.

That's the thing I don't believe scripture teaches this.

It teaches this plainly.

O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I've explained the verses to rsca before. Maybe you missed it.

http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/holy-spirit-questions/msg107243/#msg107243

I can extend the explanation if you're willing to deal with it.

You could try, but you are wrong in your short explanation, you are discounting the fact that we are all corrupt and deserving if hell to begin with, there is nothing good in us. Read Romans 7 for further explanation

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I should have said, "If you love your child so much more than God that you're willing to spend eternity in hell with your child rather than spend eternity in heaven with God, then God will probably give you your heart's desire and hell is where you'll end up."

 

[praise_yeshua]

How much time have you spent reading after Calvin? Compare that to the time you've spent establishing your own theology!!!

About 4/5 hrs a week along with other things I read. in case you're wondering.

I never said I had something new. I have spent many years establishing my own theology. I did the work. I made it my own. I didn't stand on the work of others. I built it precept upon precept.

And I didn"t?? without knowing anything about me? Wow, you sure know how to read people and know their most intimate thoughts, that's quite a skill you have...........

Have you noticed that Ransom is just throwing "one liners" like rs2a? There's a reason for this. He knows he doesn't have a counterargument. He knows that true Love isn't coerced. He knows it.

You have FAILED to even deal with the object of the thread. Prove that true love involves coercion.

Show us just how "skilled" you really are....

We have shown you Scripture and answered yours, YOU haven't done as such

Where have you answered?

You haven't even answered the question in the title of the thread. No one has.... Well, Ransom.... kinda just did.

You're not paying attention, I answered you on the first reply.

Liar. Here is your first reply

http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/does-love-coersion/msg111037/#msg111037

That's my answer, sorry you don't agree with it but there it is.

The entire chapter 34? Really? you expect me to actually acknowledge such an answer?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Because if He made mine for the sole purpose to send them to hell I believe I have a rite to take issue with Him.

Does your rite involve sacrificing chickens?

You can believe whatever you want to believe.  Scripture says you have no right.

That's the thing I don't believe scripture teaches this.

It teaches this plainly.

O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I've explained the verses to rsca before. Maybe you missed it.

http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/holy-spirit-questions/msg107243/#msg107243

I can extend the explanation if you're willing to deal with it.

You could try, but you are wrong in your short explanation, you are discounting the fact that we are all corrupt and deserving if hell to begin with, there is nothing good in us. Read Romans 7 for further explanation

Well. Thanks for the fun. I think I'll ignore you now. You post references to entire chapters in the bible and you expect someone to take you seriously? Go away.

 

[Recovering IFB]

How much time have you spent reading after Calvin? Compare that to the time you've spent establishing your own theology!!!

About 4/5 hrs a week along with other things I read. in case you're wondering.

I never said I had something new. I have spent many years establishing my own theology. I did the work. I made it my own. I didn't stand on the work of others. I built it precept upon precept.

And I didn"t?? without knowing anything about me? Wow, you sure know how to read people and know their most intimate thoughts, that's quite a skill you have...........

Have you noticed that Ransom is just throwing "one liners" like rs2a? There's a reason for this. He knows he doesn't have a counterargument. He knows that true Love isn't coerced. He knows it.

You have FAILED to even deal with the object of the thread. Prove that true love involves coercion.

Show us just how "skilled" you really are....

We have shown you Scripture and answered yours, YOU haven't done as such

Where have you answered?

You haven't even answered the question in the title of the thread. No one has.... Well, Ransom.... kinda just did.

You're not paying attention, I answered you on the first reply.

Liar. Here is your first reply

http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/does-love-coersion/msg111037/#msg111037

That's my answer, sorry you don't agree with it but there it is.

The entire chapter 34? Really? you expect me to actually acknowledge such an answer?

Chapter 36 22-36

 

[Recovering IFB]

Because if He made mine for the sole purpose to send them to hell I believe I have a rite to take issue with Him.

Does your rite involve sacrificing chickens?

You can believe whatever you want to believe.  Scripture says you have no right.

That's the thing I don't believe scripture teaches this.

It teaches this plainly.

O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I've explained the verses to rsca before. Maybe you missed it.

http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/holy-spirit-questions/msg107243/#msg107243

I can extend the explanation if you're willing to deal with it.

You could try, but you are wrong in your short explanation, you are discounting the fact that we are all corrupt and deserving if hell to begin with, there is nothing good in us. Read Romans 7 for further explanation

Well. Thanks for the fun. I think I'll ignore you now. You post references to entire chapters in the bible and you expect someone to take you seriously? Go away.

Naw! I'll think I'll hang around, but I do have to go back to work for now

Beside you seem to ignore a lot anyway

 

[praise_yeshua]

I should have said, "If you love your child so much more than God that you're willing to spend eternity in hell with your child rather than spend eternity in heaven with God, then God will probably give you your heart's desire and hell is where you'll end up."

The love of your own children is an intrinsic quality found in humanity. It even exists in sinners. The "Love of God" is even more selfless and caring. In the heart of God's own, their children are loved more then themselves. Even to the point of being on the same level as loving God Himself. This relationship "pictures/parallels" the very Love of God for humanity.

This affection comes from God Himself. Its not about "more" anything.

Either way, it kinda turned into a trap for you. I noticed you broke from your theology. Based on your own theology, my desires mean nothing. Why did you say "then God will probably give you your heart's desire and hell is where you'll end up"

Based on your theology and the statements of Calvin, himself. Can't God "subdue" me?

 

[rsc2a]

For someone who apparently knows everything about Calvinism, you sure are clueless about what the overwhelming majority of Calvinists believe.

 

[praise_yeshua]

For someone who apparently knows everything about Calvinism, you sure are clueless about what the overwhelming majority of Calvinists believe.

Prove me wrong. Post a reputable source that proves what I said about Calvinism is wrong....

The is the last one liner I'll respond to from you.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

This affection comes from God Himself. Its not about "more" anything.

If you'd rather be in hell with your child than with God in heaven, then it's all about "more".

Either way, it kinda turned into a trap for you. I noticed you broke from your theology. Based on your own theology, my desires mean nothing. Why did you say "then God will probably give you your heart's desire and hell is where you'll end up"

Based on your theology and the statements of Calvin, himself. Can't God "subdue" me?

First, I haven't read Calvin (well I read some bit a long time ago but don't even remember what it was - probably about baptism), so I don't know what his statements are. 

So - you think I'm saying she'd go to hell because God can't subdue her?  What makes you think God wants to subdue her? 

And that leads to the most absurd thing about free willism.  It assumes God wants to save everyone but is somehow incapable of making it so.  Even if you replace "incapable" with "unwilling", you still end up with God allowing man and the devil to trump his will. 

With predestination, you have God's will carried out perfectly.  He has created some for mercy, and others for destruction.  All who are predestined to receive mercy receive it.  All who are predestined for destruction are destroyed. 

 

[rsc2a]

For someone who apparently knows everything about Calvinism, you sure are clueless about what the overwhelming majority of Calvinists believe.

Prove me wrong. Post a reputable source that proves what I said about Calvinism is wrong....

The is the last one liner I'll respond to from you.

The fact that every Calvinist who has replied to your inane threads said you are completely wrong about what they believe for starters.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This affection comes from God Himself. Its not about "more" anything.

If you'd rather be in hell with your child than with God in heaven, then it's all about "more".

"Hell" is secondary to the desire to be with your own son. How does that fit into your "rather" statement?

Remember when I said such love parallels the very love of God for humanity? Do you not remember just why it "behoved" Christ to be like His "brethren" in being a faithful High Priest? His Love for humanity was more important than the condition it took to fulfill His desire.

First, I haven't read Calvin (well I read some bit a long time ago but don't even remember what it was - probably about baptism), so I don't know what his statements are. 

So - you think I'm saying she'd go to hell because God can't subdue her?  What makes you think God wants to subdue her? 

You're basing your statement on the desire of the women being contrary to God's desire. By your own theology, before the world was ever formed, before anyone had done any good or evil, God chose "some". This women can very well be part of the "some" you believe will be subdued. Now, don't change your statement. Your statement is predicated upon the actions of the women, yet, your theology teaches differently.

If you try to "claim" you didn't say this, then why include the motives of the women at all. A good Calvinist wouldn't. He doesn't care about individual motives in Election.

And that leads to the most absurd thing about free willism.  It assumes God wants to save everyone but is somehow incapable of making it so.  Even if you replace "incapable" with "unwilling", you still end up with God allowing man and the devil to trump his will. 

You're mentioning the solution and then ignoring it. God does want to save everyone. The solution is freewill. In fact, its the only solution. He will not force Himself upon another. The issues isn't whether He is capable or not. The issue is, the resulting product. Don't you think God is capable of changing the Devil? Sure He is. Why doesn't He?

In your "little" world, God enjoys the Devil being the way... the Devil is. Its His "good pleasure". Jesus told the Pharisees of His day that He could raise up children unto Abraham from "rocks"..... "ROCKS".

Obviously that's not what God desires. Yet, that is exactly what you believe happened. That God created a system/people, that regardless of their own choices, would serve Him.

Sorry, God doesn't want that. He could have that in the DEVIL if He wanted it.... but He doesn't. He wants people to accept Him of their own freewill. It really is the only solution.

With predestination, you have God's will carried out perfectly.  He has created some for mercy, and others for destruction.  All who are predestined to receive mercy receive it.  All who are predestined for destruction are destroyed.

Isn't that wonderful. You just made God into a three year old. A all powerful being that who has lived ETERNITY..... and He's just like a three year old playing with sand.......

Geesh... what a glorious God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

For someone who apparently knows everything about Calvinism, you sure are clueless about what the overwhelming majority of Calvinists believe.

Prove me wrong. Post a reputable source that proves what I said about Calvinism is wrong....

The is the last one liner I'll respond to from you.

The fact that every Calvinist who has replied to your inane threads said you are completely wrong about what they believe for starters.

Geeesh..... We ALL know just how good the Calvinists on this forum are at understanding their beliefs. TRT even admitted he hasn't read Calvin. RB says he is trying to read Calvin...

I provide Calvin's own words..... and I'm the one getting it wrong!!!

Here... one more chance. Join the discussion and tell me what Calvin meant by being "subdued" by God?

Just what is the relationship between "subdue" and "coerce"?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

You're basing your statement on the desire of the women being contrary to God's desire. ... Your statement is predicated upon the actions of the women, yet, your theology teaches differently.

No, it's not.  That's how you've interpreted it.  Her attitude could be evidence of her reprobate condition, in which case God will give her what she desires. 

He will not force Himself upon another.

Calvinism isn't about God forcing himself on anyone.  I addressed this earlier with respect to coerced love.

The issues isn't whether He is capable or not. The issue is, the resulting product. Don't you think God is capable of changing the Devil? Sure He is. Why doesn't He?

The devil serves a purpose.  That's why God allowed the devil into the garden -- to serve His ultimate purpose.  Didn't you ever notice that the devil asks permission to do evil?  "Satan has asked to sift  you as wheat."  If God didn't want to use the devil for his own good pleasure, then God would always say "no", and we would never be troubled by him.  Clearly, God says "yes" to some of the devil's requests.

Sin and the devil MUST exist in order for God to fulfill his purpose of showing us He's a merciful God.  That's what the Bible says.  If you disagree, take it up with the Author.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

For someone who apparently knows everything about Calvinism, you sure are clueless about what the overwhelming majority of Calvinists believe.

Prove me wrong. Post a reputable source that proves what I said about Calvinism is wrong....

The is the last one liner I'll respond to from you.

The fact that every Calvinist who has replied to your inane threads said you are completely wrong about what they believe for starters.

Geeesh..... We ALL know just how good the Calvinists on this forum are at understanding their beliefs. TRT even admitted he hasn't read Calvin. RB says he is trying to read Calvin...

I provide Calvin's own words..... and I'm the one getting it wrong!!!

Here... one more chance. Join the discussion and tell me what Calvin meant by being "subdued" by God?

Just what is the relationship between "subdue" and "coerce"?

Like it or not, "Calvinism" has become shorthand for "predestination, grace and the sovereignty of God".  It no longer means "what Calvin said".  It hasn't meant that for a long time. 

 

[praise_yeshua]

You're basing your statement on the desire of the women being contrary to God's desire. ... Your statement is predicated upon the actions of the women, yet, your theology teaches differently.

No, it's not.  That's how you've interpreted it.  Her attitude could be evidence of her reprobate condition, in which case God will give her what she desires. 

What does evidence of reprobation matter if God chooses to "subdue" her?

Calvinism isn't about God forcing himself on anyone.  I addressed this earlier with respect to coerced love.

No you didn't. You gave an thoroughly inadequate explanation that I am in the process of dealing with.

The devil serves a purpose.  That's why God allowed the devil into the garden -- to serve His ultimate purpose.  Didn't you ever notice that the devil asks permission to do evil?  "Satan has asked to sift  you as wheat."  If God didn't want to use the devil for his own good pleasure, then God would always say "no", and we would never be troubled by him.  Clearly, God says "yes" to some of the devil's requests.

Humm....Sure. I never said that the Devil didn't serve a purpose. I asked you why God didn't change Him. Are you saying God's purpose can't be accomplished without the Devil? If you're are saying this..... then you're coming around. You might get this yet.

Sin and the devil MUST exist in order for God to fulfill his purpose of showing us He's a merciful God.  That's what the Bible says.  If you disagree, take it up with the Author.

Thank God. We are almost there. Now throw in "freewill". Think about it. "Freewill" is necessary in order to fulfill God's purpose. Get it?

If you disagree, tell me why. Be very specific.

 

[praise_yeshua]

For someone who apparently knows everything about Calvinism, you sure are clueless about what the overwhelming majority of Calvinists believe.

Prove me wrong. Post a reputable source that proves what I said about Calvinism is wrong....

The is the last one liner I'll respond to from you.

The fact that every Calvinist who has replied to your inane threads said you are completely wrong about what they believe for starters.

Geeesh..... We ALL know just how good the Calvinists on this forum are at understanding their beliefs. TRT even admitted he hasn't read Calvin. RB says he is trying to read Calvin...

I provide Calvin's own words..... and I'm the one getting it wrong!!!

Here... one more chance. Join the discussion and tell me what Calvin meant by being "subdued" by God?

Just what is the relationship between "subdue" and "coerce"?

Like it or not, "Calvinism" has become shorthand for "predestination, grace and the sovereignty of God".  It no longer means "what Calvin said".  It hasn't meant that for a long time.

I haven't meant anyone that questioned Calvin's own words concerning his conversion. Are you saying there are Calvinist that are distancing themselves from Calvin's words concerning being "subdued"?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=praise_yeshua]A good Calvinist wouldn't. He doesn't care about individual motives in Election. [/quote]

Yet again you highlight your ignorance.