Drinking

[FSSL]

You as their father putting your stamp of approval, is a big gamble my friend.  IMHO

Far better for them to understand what Scripture really says, as they grow up in my household, than to find out later and question the Bible.

Experience and the fear of the future are NEVER to trump Scripture.

 

[Bruh]

You as their father putting your stamp of approval, is a big gamble my friend.  IMHO

Far better for them to understand what Scripture really says, as they grow up in my household, than to find out later and question the Bible.

Experience and the fear of the future are NEVER to trump Scripture.

You believe that, that is fine.  But I would also teach them the destruction it brings as well and you may very well be doing that. 

 

[Bruh]

You may eat those words one day. I would be careful not to be so proud my friend. 

I was out drinking at Dairy Queen.

I knew you were being sarcastic.   

 

[Recovering IFB]

You as their father putting your stamp of approval, is a big gamble my friend.  IMHO

Far better for them to understand what Scripture really says, as they grow up in my household, than to find out later and question the Bible.

Experience and the fear of the future are NEVER to trump Scripture.

You believe that, that is fine.  But I would also teach them the destruction it brings as well and you may very well be doing that.

Jesus would have been a terrible testimony to the youngins', huh?
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’  The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard

 

[ALAYMAN]

This is my last attempt to reason with you.  My original complaint was that you brought I Tim 4:3 into the discussion, which has nothing to do with alcohol whatsoever....

Again... my opinion was derived from at least 4 exegetical commentaries.

You cannot corroborate your opinion of the text with any commentary. I get it. A hundred more posts like this will continue to show your ignorance of the scholarly discussions regarding this passage.

About pulling stuff out of one's nether regions....

Your own words are your worst enemy.  They are black type on white screen.  Let me remind you of your gross abuse of Scripture again, where you said...



« Reply #139 on: June 19, 2014, 06:34:20 PM »

Read chapter 4:3. It appears Timothy got caught up in the false teaching of abstaining from certain foods.

Yes. Thinking that one pleases God by abstaining from wine is rooted in false teaching.

I Timothy 4:3 absolutely teaches no such thing, and your addition (conjecture, speculation, etc) to Scripture is shameful.  Your continued obstinance on the matter shows how far you'll go to defend your terrible Scripture mangling.

 

[FSSL]

I Timothy 4:3 absolutely teaches no such thing, and your addition (conjecture, speculation, etc) to Scripture is shameful.  Your continued obstinance on the matter shows how far you'll go to defend your terrible Scripture mangling.

Where is your corroboration? I have the commentaries. Your opinion is uninformed.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I Timothy 4:3 absolutely teaches no such thing, and your addition (conjecture, speculation, etc) to Scripture is shameful.  Your continued obstinance on the matter shows how far you'll go to defend your terrible Scripture mangling.

Where is your corroboration? I have the commentaries. Your opinion is uninformed.

What commentaries show that I Timothy 4:3 is dealing with Timothy's wrong view of piety?

 

[FSSL]

What commentaries show that I Timothy 4:3 is dealing with Timothy's wrong view of piety?

Try to follow the thread...

Read the commentaries on 1 Timothy 5.23

 

[rsc2a]

One would have to assume that admin, has never had first hand experience when it comes to alcohol destroying a family member...

...I have seen alcohol destroy family members to the point that I despise alcohol.  And you better believe that I tell my children the stories of their uncles and how they have to sit in jail and their children will not have a daddy for a year or so...And you better believe that I tell them that if they wouldn't of had the first sip they would not be in jail. 

I also teach them that we are not better than them because that could be us as well. 

I have learned that experience WILL change a persons view on most anything.

So you've got a brother in jail "because of alcohol" and so that personal anecdote is supposed to convince others?

I buried my 16-yr old brother after he burned alive when he was rear-ended by a drunk who was free after getting charged with two previous DUIs. At the time, I was a reasonably hard-core tee-totaller to the point that I was serving as a youth counselor for anti-drug/alcohol/tobacco retreats for church kids. Since then, I've come to see what Scripture actually teaches about alcohol (along with a host of other things).

So I guess my experience changed my views towards alcohol...I'm fine with it in moderation where once I wasn't. But, I guess my experience of burying a sibling who had been burned alive isn't as serious yours was, so that must be why I changed my views from the extra-Biblical ones you still hold.

Funny thing about the freedom we have in Christ as believers...so many of our spiritual kin are attracted to chains.

Well, I guess experience is experienced in different ways.  People are different.   

My experience teaches me, that nothing good comes from drinking alcohol. 

Or it teaches that personal anecdotes and opinion shouldn't be the basis for personal preferences that are elevated to Scriptural commands.

 

[ALAYMAN]

What commentaries show that I Timothy 4:3 is dealing with Timothy's wrong view of piety?

Try to follow the thread...

Read the commentaries on 1 Timothy 5.23

lol, you're such a disingenuous person.  The objection that I made, and which you ignored, in favor of fleeing to I Timothy 5, was posted numerous times, but here it is again...

« Reply #139 on: June 19, 2014, 06:34:20 PM »

Read chapter 4:3. It appears Timothy got caught up in the false teaching of abstaining from certain foods.

Yes. Thinking that one pleases God by abstaining from wine is rooted in false teaching.

Now you try to follow your own words, in context of the thread, and don't try to slither out of it.  Man up, be a Christian,  and admit your nether regions are missing some scatological material.

MAtter of fact, I told you that contextually, I Timothy 4:3 in not applicable to a rebuke by Paul of Timothy, because the warnings of error pertain to "latter times".  I could give you scores of commentaries that understand this straightforward contextual understanding of the passage, but you keep trying to invoke a different passage than the one you originally were shown to be in error (I Timothy4:3).

Here is just one example of proof that you are in error regarding your interpretation of I Timothy 4:3 and your claim that is dealing with Timothy's asceticism...

People's New Testament
In the latter times. In future times. How far away is not indicated.

More commentaries repeating this understanding of it are available, but I'm sure you'd rather talk about an unrelated passage a whole chapter away (and commentators who merely speculate about its meaning).

 

[ALAYMAN]

MAtter of fact, I told you that contextually, I Timothy 4:3 in not applicable to a rebuke by Paul of Timothy, because the warnings of error pertain to "latter times".  I could give you scores of commentaries that understand this straightforward contextual understanding of the passage, but you keep trying to invoke a different passage than the one you originally were shown to be in error (I Timothy4:3).

Your problem is three-fold:

1) You said I made this up. So, I showed you some commentaries that supported my conclusion. You couldn't bring yourself to admitting that you were wrong... so, now you scurry around trying to find something.
2) I referenced 1 Timothy 4:3 from the basis of 1 Timothy 5:23. Try doing that. THAT has been the discussion.
3) You need better commentaries than the People's Commentary if you are going to keep up.

1) I never ONCE said anything about I Timothy 5.  That was you, abandoning the context and text where you clearly mis-spoke about Timothy's asceticism.
2) You referenced I Timothy 4:3 with the assertion that it intimates Timothy was overly pietistic, but you are wrong to assert that.  The context not only does not say that, but the tone and tenor of the admonition is clearly in a future tense.
3) in the latter times — in the times following upon the times in which he is now writing. Not some remote future, but times immediately subsequent, the beginnings of the apostasy being already discernible (Act_20:29): these are the forerunners of “the last days” (2Ti_3:1).--JFB.....

many other commentaries available upon request, and for those keeping score, that's 2.

It's really sad when a Christian twists and contorts so much.  It is a form of dishonesty/lying.  If you had simply referenced I Tim 5 to begin with rather than twisting 4:3 to say something that it doesn't mean then we wouldn't be having this converstion and some of your dignity would have been salvaged.

 

[FSSL]

It's really sad when a Christian twists and contorts so much.  It is a form of dishonesty/lying.  If you had simply referenced I Tim 5 to begin with rather than twisting 4:3 to say something that it doesn't mean then we wouldn't be having this converstion and some of your dignity would have been salvaged.

You read this post on 1 Timothy 5:23 and you still found reason to argue about it.

All of the commentaries I cited are from 1 Timothy 5:23 and I provided my own translation of 1 Timothy 5:23 and later, I parsed it.

 

[ALAYMAN]

It's really sad when a Christian twists and contorts so much.  It is a form of dishonesty/lying.  If you had simply referenced I Tim 5 to begin with rather than twisting 4:3 to say something that it doesn't mean then we wouldn't be having this converstion and some of your dignity would have been salvaged.

You read this post on 1 Timothy 5:23 and you still found reason to argue about it.

All of the commentaries I cited are from 1 Timothy 5:23 and I provided my own translation of 1 Timothy 5:23 and later, I parsed it.

And you continue to ignore the fact that my objection had NOTHING to do with I Timothy 5:23.  You're good at bait and switch.  Ever thought about selling used cars for a living?

 

[ALAYMAN]

It's really sad when a Christian twists and contorts so much.  It is a form of dishonesty/lying.  If you had simply referenced I Tim 5 to begin with ....

And you continue to ignore the fact that my objection had NOTHING to do with I Timothy 5:23.  You're good at bait and switch.  Ever thought about selling used cars for a living?

Heh.

Nothing satisfies Alayman. Not even Alayman knows what he wants.

What I want is for you to not twist Scripture, which is what you did when you said that I Timothy 4:3 teaches that Timothy was being warned by Paul of his asceticism.  You are really big on commentaries, the Bible, not so much.  But for the sake of humoring your continual obfuscation and obstinance, please show a commentary that states that I Timothy 4:3 is Paul rebuking Timothy for asceticism.  Don't use I Timothy 5 commentaries.  Stick to the passage (I Tim 4:3) that you wrongly abused please.

 

[FSSL]

Please follow the thread. Read the thread.
You said I pulled this out of my arse.
So... I gave commentary corroboration

You just chided me for not beginning with 1 Timothy 5 and I showed you that I did.

.... and YET that still is not good enough...

 

[ALAYMAN]

Please follow the thread. Read the thread.
You said I pulled this out of my arse.
So... I gave commentary corroboration

You just chided me for not beginning with 1 Timothy 5 and I showed you that I did.

.... and YET that still is not good enough...

I'm not trying to be mean, but you are either dense, or dishnonest.  I have no problem with you using reasonable inference and speculation about I Timothy 5 to support your view against asceticism (even in Timothy's life, though I disagree with that inference too).  What I have a problem with is you citing a passage of Scripture out of context (I Tim 4:3) to support your point.  Like I said, Hyles has nothing on you.

 

[FSSL]

Hyles didn't like commentaries either.

 

[ALAYMAN]

He also ignored the charges about Dave, "the door", and a host of other things that didn't help his cause, reputation, or integrity, just like some other people here, if ya know what I mean.

 

[ALAYMAN]

You work with chemicals all day, right?

lol

 

[freelance_christian]

Romans 14 my friends. Whatever is not from faith is sin. If you cannot drink alcohol with a clear conscience, then do not drink it. You will get no judgment from me; but the flip side is equally valid -- do not judge your brother who can imbibe with a clear conscience.  That is the essence of Christian love. Paul says, "One believes he may eat anything, while the weak man eats only vegetables; let not him who eats despise him who abstains, and let not him who abstains pass judgment on him who eats; for God has welcomed him."

If it bothers you that I drink, then I will certainly abstain from it in your presence. It's a complete non-issue at that point.

"Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."  (Rom 14:13-17)


The bottom line:

"It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves." (Rom 14:21-22)

I was a teetotaler for the first 30 plus years of my life, but came to understand through much prayer and study that much of what I was taught was incorrect and fraught with scriptural inaccuracies. I now enjoy the occasional drink in the spirit in which it has been given by God to men. The only value in these arguments is that hopefully someone who is seeking the truth on the matter can see the arguments from both sides (between the ad hominem attacks) and come to some sort of conclusion on their own.

(PS - I'm Chad Fletcher from the old forums)