Faith Promise Anyone

[bgwilkinson]

I believe this is a good New Testament example of faith promise giving the way God planned it or at least the way Paul practiced it. He raised the money for 'his" missionary work as a tent maker. Do you think Paul took a cut as the fundraiser?

1Co 16:2  Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

This money was going the the opposite direction compared to money collected in our day.

It was going from the mission church plants back to the mother church in Jerusalem.

Now we collect the money from the mother church and send it out to the church plants.

How could we have gotten it so backwards in 2,000 years? 

Are todays churches practicing New Testament giving the way Paul practiced it?

Opinions?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I believe this is a good New Testament example of faith promise giving the way God planned it or at least the way Paul practiced it. He raised the money for 'his" missionary work as a tent maker. Do you think Paul took a cut as the fundraiser?

1Co 16:2  Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

This money was going the the opposite direction compared to money collected in our day.

It was going from the mission church plants back to the mother church in Jerusalem.

Now we collect the money from the mother church and send it out to the church plants.

How could we have gotten it so backwards in 2,000 years? 

Are todays churches practicing New Testament giving the way Paul practiced it?

Opinions?

We've turned a lot more than that backwards.  And as long as people whose living depends upon the wrong way of doing things run the show, there isn't much hope for a correction or cure. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I believe this is a good New Testament example of faith promise giving the way God planned it or at least the way Paul practiced it. He raised the money for 'his" missionary work as a tent maker. Do you think Paul took a cut as the fundraiser?

1Co 16:2  Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

This money was going the the opposite direction compared to money collected in our day.

It was going from the mission church plants back to the mother church in Jerusalem.

Now we collect the money from the mother church and send it out to the church plants.

How could we have gotten it so backwards in 2,000 years? 

Are todays churches practicing New Testament giving the way Paul practiced it?

Opinions?

We've turned a lot more than that backwards.  And as long as people whose living depends upon the wrong way of doing things run the show, there isn't much hope for a correction or cure.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I believe this is a good New Testament example of faith promise giving the way God planned it or at least the way Paul practiced it. He raised the money for 'his" missionary work as a tent maker. Do you think Paul took a cut as the fundraiser?

1Co 16:2  Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

This money was going the the opposite direction compared to money collected in our day.

It was going from the mission church plants back to the mother church in Jerusalem.

Now we collect the money from the mother church and send it out to the church plants.

How could we have gotten it so backwards in 2,000 years? 

Are todays churches practicing New Testament giving the way Paul practiced it?

Opinions?

We've turned a lot more than that backwards.  And as long as people whose living depends upon the wrong way of doing things run the show, there isn't much hope for a correction or cure.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

I believe this is a good New Testament example of faith promise giving the way God planned it or at least the way Paul practiced it. He raised the money for 'his" missionary work as a tent maker. Do you think Paul took a cut as the fundraiser?

1Co 16:2  Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

This money was going the the opposite direction compared to money collected in our day.

It was going from the mission church plants back to the mother church in Jerusalem.

Now we collect the money from the mother church and send it out to the church plants.

How could we have gotten it so backwards in 2,000 years? 

Are todays churches practicing New Testament giving the way Paul practiced it?

Opinions?

It would seem money was going in many directions, in Philippians Paul commended the Philippian church for sending to meet his needs. I Corinthians 16:2 was a collection for the suffering saints in Jerusalem. We are a church plant, and receive, but we also send out, and have helped meet needs in our sending church.

 

[prophet]

Last year, when I was supposed to be "going on deputation", I asked the churches to be willing to pray about taking up a collection for us, if we ever call with a dire need.

I went back to winning men to the Lord, and teaching them a construction trade while I disciple them in basic Bible doctrine, like I did in Gary, In and Chicago.

I can, cuz I'm in the U.S.

I understand sometimes others can't, ,which is why they  should be ordaining elders from among the Nationals, who can work.

I read Paul, in Acts 20, said "I can do that", and went back to Biblical ministering...to the needs of the Saints.

 

[AmazedbyGrace]

The way my former church taught Faith Promise Giving (via Chappell, Don Sisk, and Daddy Gibbs) was that we should pray for an amount to give...and not just settle for what, you know, God had actually provided us with - but with some larger amount. An amount large enough to show we had faith. Then God was supposed to honor our faith and provide the offering for us. Cause "we have not because we ask not". Yes, we were supposed to put God to the test.

So very wrong in so many ways.

Why is it the members were supposed to over give their account balances by faith, while the church leaders wanted to operate by sight?

Not shocking at all considering Chappell's faithless, 64-step fundraising method for his never-ending building programs:

http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2014/08/fundraising-in-sixty-four-simple-spirit-led-steps/

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

The way my former church taught Faith Promise Giving (via Chappell, Don Sisk, and Daddy Gibbs) was that we should pray for an amount to give...and not just settle for what, you know, God had actually provided us with - but with some larger amount. An amount large enough to show we had faith. Then God was supposed to honor our faith and provide the offering for us. Cause "we have not because we ask not". Yes, we were supposed to put God to the test.

So very wrong in so many ways.

Why is it the members were supposed to over give their account balances by faith, while the church leaders wanted to operate by sight?

Not shocking at all considering Chappell's faithless, 64-step fundraising method for his never-ending building programs:

http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2014/08/fundraising-in-sixty-four-simple-spirit-led-steps/

Sixty four simple steps???  I'm not even going to click on the link. 

 

[TimbauxRioux]

The way my former church taught Faith Promise Giving (via Chappell, Don Sisk, and Daddy Gibbs) was that we should pray for an amount to give...and not just settle for what, you know, God had actually provided us with - but with some larger amount. An amount large enough to show we had faith. Then God was supposed to honor our faith and provide the offering for us. Cause "we have not because we ask not". Yes, we were supposed to put God to the test.

So very wrong in so many ways.

Why is it the members were supposed to over give their account balances by faith, while the church leaders wanted to operate by sight?

Not shocking at all considering Chappell's faithless, 64-step fundraising method for his never-ending building programs:

http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2014/08/fundraising-in-sixty-four-simple-spirit-led-steps/

they gave us a card to fill out and make a vow. I wrote.. i am self employed, i will give what i can, when i can. I am sure they knew it was I who put that card in the offering plate.

i have an idea..how about dropping the annual anniversary and birthday gift for the pastor..(in my church.. a total of about $20,000) and giving THAT to faith promise?

 

[groupie]

I am not giving a dime to missions until that whole mess is revamped.

There is no need to be sending missionaries to countries where the Gospel has been presented over and over and churches are full of members that could fully support the church and do not. I know of one "missionary" in Australia that has a plethora of members making AUS$80,000 plus a year that is still milking the American churches for support. He is leaving the field soon and guess what? Another 'Merican is just finishing up deputation to take over for him. I guess they could not find an Australian national to take the church? Really?

Furthermore, the Philippines has something like 3000 Baptist missionaries there. Can they not find nationals of their own to minister to the flocks? Good night, the all American dollar is what is at stake here. How many more missionaries shall we send there?

And while I am on this rant, I have had enough of missionaries rolling around in brand new SUV's (owning 2 and 3 top of the line vehicles at that), living in mansions, having maids and nannies take care of them, buying plane tickets to jet around without shopping for a bargain and I could go on and on. This is on the backs of hard working church members that give faithfully to their work. They don't live or eat like locals and often time have Western food bills of $1000 to $1500 a month. You can't reach the people when you live like kings and queens and they live like paupers.

Before anyone gets bent out of shape, I know that it is not all missionaries, but it is many.

 

[bruinboy]

I am not giving a dime to missions until that whole mess is revamped.

There is no need to be sending missionaries to countries where the Gospel has been presented over and over and churches are full of members that could fully support the church and do not. I know of one "missionary" in Australia that has a plethora of members making AUS$80,000 plus a year that is still milking the American churches for support. He is leaving the field soon and guess what? Another 'Merican is just finishing up deputation to take over for him. I guess they could not find an Australian national to take the church? Really?

Furthermore, the Philippines has something like 3000 Baptist missionaries there. Can they not find nationals of their own to minister to the flocks? Good night, the all American dollar is what is at stake here. How many more missionaries shall we send there?

And while I am on this rant, I have had enough of missionaries rolling around in brand new SUV's (owning 2 and 3 top of the line vehicles at that), living in mansions, having maids and nannies take care of them, buying plane tickets to jet around without shopping for a bargain and I could go on and on. This is on the backs of hard working church members that give faithfully to their work. They don't live or eat like locals and often time have Western food bills of $1000 to $1500 a month. You can't reach the people when you live like kings and queens and they live like paupers.

Before anyone gets bent out of shape, I know that it is not all missionaries, but it is many.

Absolutely 1000% correct.  BTW Faith Promise is of the Debil.

 

[subllibrm]

I am not giving a dime to missions until that whole mess is revamped.

There is no need to be sending missionaries to countries where the Gospel has been presented over and over and churches are full of members that could fully support the church and do not. I know of one "missionary" in Australia that has a plethora of members making AUS$80,000 plus a year that is still milking the American churches for support. He is leaving the field soon and guess what? Another 'Merican is just finishing up deputation to take over for him. I guess they could not find an Australian national to take the church? Really?

Furthermore, the Philippines has something like 3000 Baptist missionaries there. Can they not find nationals of their own to minister to the flocks? Good night, the all American dollar is what is at stake here. How many more missionaries shall we send there?

And while I am on this rant, I have had enough of missionaries rolling around in brand new SUV's (owning 2 and 3 top of the line vehicles at that), living in mansions, having maids and nannies take care of them, buying plane tickets to jet around without shopping for a bargain and I could go on and on. This is on the backs of hard working church members that give faithfully to their work. They don't live or eat like locals and often time have Western food bills of $1000 to $1500 a month. You can't reach the people when you live like kings and queens and they live like paupers.

Before anyone gets bent out of shape, I know that it is not all missionaries, but it is many.

Me thinks your bias inflates your perception.

We have a couple and their three kids living in our 2bdr "apartment" next door to the church. They sold their house (mansion would be a stretch) and are putting that and the difference in living expenses into their own fund along with whatever the Lord provides. He works full time 2nd shift so that he has time during the day to make contacts and communicate with folks about their ministry. I haven't seen any high living going on. And honestly, I have never seen a missionary living anything like what you describe. I suppose it could be but ...

 

[bruinboy]

I am not giving a dime to missions until that whole mess is revamped.

There is no need to be sending missionaries to countries where the Gospel has been presented over and over and churches are full of members that could fully support the church and do not. I know of one "missionary" in Australia that has a plethora of members making AUS$80,000 plus a year that is still milking the American churches for support. He is leaving the field soon and guess what? Another 'Merican is just finishing up deputation to take over for him. I guess they could not find an Australian national to take the church? Really?

Furthermore, the Philippines has something like 3000 Baptist missionaries there. Can they not find nationals of their own to minister to the flocks? Good night, the all American dollar is what is at stake here. How many more missionaries shall we send there?

And while I am on this rant, I have had enough of missionaries rolling around in brand new SUV's (owning 2 and 3 top of the line vehicles at that), living in mansions, having maids and nannies take care of them, buying plane tickets to jet around without shopping for a bargain and I could go on and on. This is on the backs of hard working church members that give faithfully to their work. They don't live or eat like locals and often time have Western food bills of $1000 to $1500 a month. You can't reach the people when you live like kings and queens and they live like paupers.

Before anyone gets bent out of shape, I know that it is not all missionaries, but it is many.

Me thinks your bias inflates your perception.

We have a couple and their three kids living in our 2bdr "apartment" next door to the church. They sold their house (mansion would be a stretch) and are putting that and the difference in living expenses into their own fund along with whatever the Lord provides. He works full time 2nd shift so that he has time during the day to make contacts and communicate with folks about their ministry. I haven't seen any high living going on. And honestly, I have never seen a missionary living anything like what you describe. I suppose it could be but ...

I have seen the high-living, etc. many times over.  No one said that every missionary does this. Your one example does nothing to refute the question at hand.  I used to belong to a church that gave more money per member than any other church in the BBF, over $250K a year.  (Calvinist pastor by the way).  Know a lot of missionaries, most live pretty good, nice homes, maids, golf memberships, some are not even literate.  However, they all have the same gift, suck up to the pastor big time, friend of a friend, etc.  That is not the way to fund mission work, IMHO. 

 

[bruinboy]

The way my former church taught Faith Promise Giving (via Chappell, Don Sisk, and Daddy Gibbs) was that we should pray for an amount to give...and not just settle for what, you know, God had actually provided us with - but with some larger amount. An amount large enough to show we had faith. Then God was supposed to honor our faith and provide the offering for us. Cause "we have not because we ask not". Yes, we were supposed to put God to the test.

So very wrong in so many ways.

Why is it the members were supposed to over give their account balances by faith, while the church leaders wanted to operate by sight?

Not shocking at all considering Chappell's faithless, 64-step fundraising method for his never-ending building programs:

http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2014/08/fundraising-in-sixty-four-simple-spirit-led-steps/

they gave us a card to fill out and make a vow. I wrote.. i am self employed, i will give what i can, when i can. I am sure they knew it was I who put that card in the offering plate.

i have an idea..how about dropping the annual anniversary and birthday gift for the pastor..(in my church.. a total of about $20,000) and giving THAT to faith promise?

LOL, THAT would do away with FP overnight. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I am not giving a dime to missions until that whole mess is revamped.

There is no need to be sending missionaries to countries where the Gospel has been presented over and over and churches are full of members that could fully support the church and do not. I know of one "missionary" in Australia that has a plethora of members making AUS$80,000 plus a year that is still milking the American churches for support. He is leaving the field soon and guess what? Another 'Merican is just finishing up deputation to take over for him. I guess they could not find an Australian national to take the church? Really?

Furthermore, the Philippines has something like 3000 Baptist missionaries there. Can they not find nationals of their own to minister to the flocks? Good night, the all American dollar is what is at stake here. How many more missionaries shall we send there?

And while I am on this rant, I have had enough of missionaries rolling around in brand new SUV's (owning 2 and 3 top of the line vehicles at that), living in mansions, having maids and nannies take care of them, buying plane tickets to jet around without shopping for a bargain and I could go on and on. This is on the backs of hard working church members that give faithfully to their work. They don't live or eat like locals and often time have Western food bills of $1000 to $1500 a month. You can't reach the people when you live like kings and queens and they live like paupers.

Before anyone gets bent out of shape, I know that it is not all missionaries, but it is many.

Me thinks your bias inflates your perception.

We have a couple and their three kids living in our 2bdr "apartment" next door to the church. They sold their house (mansion would be a stretch) and are putting that and the difference in living expenses into their own fund along with whatever the Lord provides. He works full time 2nd shift so that he has time during the day to make contacts and communicate with folks about their ministry. I haven't seen any high living going on. And honestly, I have never seen a missionary living anything like what you describe. I suppose it could be but ...

Certainly, anything could be, but that is not the rule with missionaries in my experience.
Most missionaries I know and have personal experience with, are far from living in the lap of luxury.
Could be, a frog with wings wouldn't bump his butt when he hopped.....

 

[groupie]

I suggest that pastors unexpectedly drop in on the missionaries their churches support. Not a planned trip - you might be surprised. No one is going to broadcast how good they have it good when it hurts the call for support. I know of one missionary that is constantly asking for money that spends a majority of his communications complaining about the health of him and his wife. Most of their problems are weight related - knee problems, hip replacement needed, heart issues, diabetes etc. They never mention that their gluttony landed them in the poor health.

I know another that owns lake front property in the US and rentals and also lives large on the mission field. He told me that after furlough he returns with over 100K from love offerings that he got over the and above the monthly support he gets.

But back to my original comments -

Should we be sending money to missionaries that have a church full of people that make good money that could fully support their church?

Should we keep sending missionaries the Philippines when their are 3000 IFB churches already there?

Should missionaries concentrate on training nationals to reach their own people or spend their time building a church so another American can take over when he retires? I am talking 30 plus years on the field that resulted in 40 or 50 women and children and a couple old men in a rented building that has to be taken over by a new missionary? An the new guy will no doubt spend another 30 yeas there with the same result.

 

[groupie]

And before anyone says that I am misinformed. I supported missionaries for around $1000 a month for several years. I designated $100 a month for 3 Bible students ($300 total) studying at a Bible institute the missionary started. I popped in and found that the missionary lived in a huge 6000 square foot house. They had 3 maids, a driver, and top of the line furniture. I then found out that my $300 a month never went to support the students.

I began to check on several missionaries I supported and found all but one was smoke and mirrors. None of them were doing much of anything, did not speak the local language, and were seen by locals as arrogant and rude.

The one guy that was actually reaching people was living like a national. He was married to a national, lived in a small two room house that had no air, and walked or took public transportation. They cooked outside and did their dishes with a garden hose and a couple of buckets. He had learned the language fluently and was basically seen as a a foreigner that had turned native  He was living on less than $600 a month. By the way, he was reaching multitudes of people, who in turn were reaching more.

 

[Dunkard]

I have seen the high-living, etc. many times over.  No one said that every missionary does this. Your one example does nothing to refute the question at hand.  I used to belong to a church that gave more money per member than any other church in the BBF, over $250K a year.  (Calvinist pastor by the way).  Know a lot of missionaries, most live pretty good, nice homes, maids, golf memberships, some are not even literate.  However, they all have the same gift, suck up to the pastor big time, friend of a friend, etc.  That is not the way to fund mission work, IMHO.

Hey, let's just compare anecdotal evidence, that's sure to give us very good idea of what all of a particular group are like. For example, I've encountered a few posters on this forum(and it's various forums) like G@y Beaumont, Marty Braemer, etc. You must be exactly like G@Y in all aspects.

 

[prophet]

And before anyone says that I am misinformed. I supported missionaries for around $1000 a month for several years. I designated $100 a month for 3 Bible students ($300 total) studying at a Bible institute the missionary started. I popped in and found that the missionary lived in a huge 6000 square foot house. They had 3 maids, a driver, and top of the line furniture. I then found out that my $300 a month never went to support the students.

I began to check on several missionaries I supported and found all but one was smoke and mirrors. None of them were doing much of anything, did not speak the local language, and were seen by locals as arrogant and rude.

The one guy that was actually reaching people was living like a national. He was married to a national, lived in a small two room house that had no air, and walked or took public transportation. They cooked outside and did their dishes with a garden hose and a couple of buckets. He had learned the language fluently and was basically seen as a a foreigner that had turned native  He was living on less than $600 a month. By the way, he was reaching multitudes of people, who in turn were reaching more.

I know that you are in the know, and I believe that you are giving us a true picture of that side of foreign missions.

How many reporters like you do we have, that live in country?

No, we have Americanizers, going all over, converting locals into White Middle-class  Evangelicals.

The effective missionary is there to find Nationals to reach their own, ordain them, and help them establish chrches.

 

[subllibrm]

The effective missionary is there to find Nationals to reach their own, ordain them, and help them establish churches.

^this^

And except for the men who are in support roles (pilots, aviation mechanics, maintenance etc.) this is the norm for our missionaries. Start a church, train godly men, turn it over to them and move on to do it again.