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[Tarheel Baptist]

SMELLIN:
Nothing is owed to me.  Just pointing out what I believe He said and taught. Take it as you will. But beware: following Jesus alone just might cause any religious and political empires to fall from one's life.

Carry on with your sarcasm.

What, exactly do you believe Jesus taught about salvation?
According to your revelation, He didn't teach or believe that His death and resurrection had any impact on salvation, so what did Jesus teach about how men could be saved? Will everyone ultimately end up in heaven?

Jesus: ?Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.? (Agrees with Ecclesiastes: ??For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.?)

Jesus: ?Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.?

John: ?And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.?

John: ?But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.?

Jesus: ?He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.?

Jesus: ?Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.?

John: ?Happy [are] the ones doing His commandments, so that their right will be to the tree of life, and they shall enter by the gates into the city.?

Jesus: ?I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent? The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.?

Jesus: ?I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.?

Jesus: ?He that loveth his life loseth it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will the Father honor.?

Jesus: ?So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.?

Jesus: ?Not everyone who says to me, ?Lord, Lord,? will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ?Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?? And then will I declare to them, ?I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.??

Jesus: ?Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. But if that servant says to himself, ?My master is delayed in coming,? and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.?

Jesus: ?He that (keeps on) obeying unto the Son keeps on having eternal life, and he that (keeps on) disobeying toward the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God keeps on remaining on him.?

Jesus: ?When your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees can you enter the kingdom of heaven.?

Jesus: ?And every one that hath left houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or children, or lands, for my name?s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit eternal life.?

Jesus: ?Obey the commandments.? (Matthew 19:16-26; Mark 10:17-31; Luke 18:18-26)

Isaiah: ?Who among you fears the Lord and obeys His servant [Messiah]?... Watch out, you who walk in your own light and warm yourselves by your own fires. This is the reward you will receive from me [Yaweh]: You will soon lie down in great torment.?

James: ?You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.?

Jesus: ?Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven?Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth?Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy?Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God?Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God?Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.?

Jesus: ?But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.?

Jesus: ?But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.?

So, at the judgment, if there is a judgment...that our good works will be weighed against our bad works and that determines a portion of our salvation judgement. THEN, we will be scanned to see if we harbored unforgiveness and IF SO, our good works are negated and we are doomed?

 

[sword]

  Now, since you, and you alone, know why Jesus didn't come...let us know when you figure out exactly what His purpose in coming was.

I am not alone in my beliefs.

Regardless of what I believe (belief about is different than belief in), Jesus said why He came:

[/quote]
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Jesus replied, ?Go back and report to John what you hear and see: 5The blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and good news is preached to the poor.

The good tidings or good news (the gospel) is salvation through Jesus Christ.
Romans 10:15
Luke 2:10-11
Isaiah 52:7

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For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost.

He came to earth to bring salvation to man.
John 3
Luke 24:7
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For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

It was Gods will that Jesus die on the cross to pay for our sins.
Luke 22:42
Romans 8:3-7

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For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

He states the purpose of his coming is to give his life, on the cross, as a ransom for us and a payment for our sins.
John 3:17

Apart from trust in Jesus Christ and his shed blood on the cross, how do you believe one gets saved. How do you propose one gets his sins forgiven.

Is it your belief that goods works will take you to heaven?
Ephesians 2:8-9
Isaiah 64:6
John 14:6
Hebrews 10:10

Or if it is election only, then why does the bible say whosoever will may come?
Rev. 22:17
John 3:16
Acts 2:21
2 Peter 3:9
Titus 2:11-12

 

[Smellin Coffee]

So, at the judgment, if there is a judgment...that our good works will be weighed against our bad works and that determines a portion of our salvation judgement. THEN, we will be scanned to see if we harbored unforgiveness and IF SO, our good works are negated and we are doomed?

That is up to our Judge. The thief on the cross had no works other than risk further torture for his public confession yet Jesus saw his heart and gave him a place in paradise.

No man comes to the Father but through Jesus alone. Hence, to change His words and their influence is a dangerous proposition, IMHO.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

The good tidings or good news (the gospel) is salvation through Jesus Christ.
Romans 10:15
Luke 2:10-11
Isaiah 52:7

Yep. That is why Jesus taught His disciples while on earth and told them to pass it along to future generations. Hence, red letters of of most importance of all the canon, IMHO.

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For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost.

He came to earth to bring salvation to man.
John 3
Luke 24:7

Not denying that at all, even though the Luke passage is not a soteriological proof text.

Quote
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

It was Gods will that Jesus die on the cross to pay for our sins.
Luke 22:42
Romans 8:3-7

Luke 22:43 says nothing about "paying for sins", though it does reference His death.

Quote
For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

He states the purpose of his coming is to give his life, on the cross, as a ransom for us and a payment for our sins.
John 3:17

John 3:17 says nothing about the cross.

Apart from trust in Jesus Christ and his shed blood on the cross, how do you believe one gets saved. How do you propose one gets his sins forgiven.

Is it your belief that goods works will take you to heaven?
Ephesians 2:8-9
Isaiah 64:6
John 14:6
Hebrews 10:10

I posted a lot of recorded words from Jesus. How much of those quotes were about faith alone vs. how much involved some kind of synergism?

Or if it is election only, then why does the bible say whosoever will may come?
Rev. 22:17
John 3:16
Acts 2:21
2 Peter 3:9
Titus 2:11-12

I believe God does elect some, but I also believe in the 'whosoever will'.

 

[Jim Jones]

John 3 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 Thatwhosoever believeth in him should not perish, but haveeternal life.

Silly boy. John 3:17 says nothing about the cross? Are you willfully picking and choosing texts and placing them out of context?

 

[Jim Jones]

I'm waiting for you to suggest Jesus could have been trampled to death by camels. That that death would be enough for our redemption.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

John 3 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 Thatwhosoever believeth in him should not perish, but haveeternal life.

Silly boy. John 3:17 says nothing about the cross? Are you willfully picking and choosing texts and placing them out of context?

That was a rhetorical question, I assume! 

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I'm waiting for you to suggest Jesus could have been trampled to death by camels. That that death would be enough for our redemption.

Where did Jesus teach His death was redemptive at all?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

John 3 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 Thatwhosoever believeth in him should not perish, but haveeternal life.

Silly boy. John 3:17 says nothing about the cross? Are you willfully picking and choosing texts and placing them out of context?

Nope. The passage is symbolism, not an allegory. The serpent was brazen, not a living sacrifice to atone for the sins of the people.

By marginalizing His teachings, "Christians" aren't practicing what this symbolism represents: exalting Christ above all because it is through Him and His words we find life. IOW, we may be lifting the brazen serpent but we also are lifting other items on an equal plane.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I'm waiting for you to suggest Jesus could have been trampled to death by camels. That that death would be enough for our redemption.

Where did Jesus teach His death was redemptive at all?

Am I accurate in saying that you don't believe the death of Christ was redemptive, but as a martyr? His death is not important, His teachings are why He came?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I'm waiting for you to suggest Jesus could have been trampled to death by camels. That that death would be enough for our redemption.

Where did Jesus teach His death was redemptive at all?

Am I accurate in saying that you don't believe the death of Christ was redemptive, but as a martyr? His death is not important, His teachings are why He came?

Did Jesus say otherwise?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I'm waiting for you to suggest Jesus could have been trampled to death by camels. That that death would be enough for our redemption.

Where did Jesus teach His death was redemptive at all?

Am I accurate in saying that you don't believe the death of Christ was redemptive, but as a martyr? His death is not important, His teachings are why He came?

Did Jesus say otherwise?

I know what Jesus said, I was honestly trying to find out what, exactly, you believe.
Here is my take away...Your answer to my question is yes. Jesus death is not important; the purpose of His incarnation was to give us His teaching.

Is that accurate?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I'm waiting for you to suggest Jesus could have been trampled to death by camels. That that death would be enough for our redemption.

Where did Jesus teach His death was redemptive at all?

Am I accurate in saying that you don't believe the death of Christ was redemptive, but as a martyr? His death is not important, His teachings are why He came?

Did Jesus say otherwise?

I know what Jesus said, I was honestly trying to find out what, exactly, you believe.
Here is my take away...Your answer to my question is yes. Jesus death is not important; the purpose of His incarnation was to give us His teaching.

Is that accurate?

Jesus never gave a reason for His death, that I am aware of, so here is my speculation (subject to change based on greater evidence).

In the Great Commission, Jesus claimed after His resurrection (and yes, I do believe He really died and was resurrected from the dead) that all power (authority) had been given to Him. It seems to me this happened sometime after His death and before His resurrection (though it is possible it happened after the resurrection before He went to heaven one more time - John 20:17). If He had this power before His earthly appearance, the power would have always been His and He would not have been the recipient of such authority. IOW, if He were the source of authority, He could not have given it to Himself. But since He claimed it had been granted to Him, I suspect the timing of that "gift" was during the days He was in paradise.

That being said, it is my speculation (again, personal opinion and not a tenet of mine) is that a public execution and public resurrection was necessary proof of His authentic claims: the Messiah through whom the New Covenant was given (at the Last Supper) and his being the Son of God. IOW, God was giving yet another proof to the world (just like at Jesus' baptism) that Jesus was who He said He was and that His teachings while on earth was really what God had intended for all His (God's) followers to live.

Now through that death, we are taught how to live: living in forgiveness of those who hurt us, so there is an exemplary aspect as well. But I believe the main purpose was His death and resurrection authenticated Him and His teaching.

I find it interesting once Jesus make Himself known to Mary Magdalene after His resurrection, her first word to the resurrected Jesus was "Rabbi!" I also find it interesting is the disciples had crazy interest in protecting Jesus from death. It seems to me if He had taught salvation were necessary through His death and/or resurrection, He would have made them aware and they would have recognized the importance that mankind's salvation so they wouldn't attempt to thwart His death. The fact they didn't understand  its assumed importance, even though He DID tell them it was going to happen, seems to indicate they had no knowledge of any salvific importance to His death. And when Jesus at His ascension told them to teach exactly what He taught them while on earth, it seems He didn't mean for anyone to add to His gospel, shared with the disciples and through them, to the world.

So I do believe Jesus' death and resurrection was very important because it authenticated His teaching. It also meant the coming of the Holy Spirit for the establishment of His kingdom on the earth through our obedience and loyalty to Him.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I'm waiting for you to suggest Jesus could have been trampled to death by camels. That that death would be enough for our redemption.

Where did Jesus teach His death was redemptive at all?

Am I accurate in saying that you don't believe the death of Christ was redemptive, but as a martyr? His death is not important, His teachings are why He came?

Did Jesus say otherwise?

I know what Jesus said, I was honestly trying to find out what, exactly, you believe.
Here is my take away...Your answer to my question is yes. Jesus death is not important; the purpose of His incarnation was to give us His teaching.

Is that accurate?

Jesus never gave a reason for His death, that I am aware of, so here is my speculation (subject to change based on greater evidence).

In the Great Commission, Jesus claimed after His resurrection (and yes, I do believe He really died and was resurrected from the dead) that all power (authority) had been given to Him. It seems to me this happened sometime after His death and before His resurrection (though it is possible it happened after the resurrection before He went to heaven one more time - John 20:17). If He had this power before His earthly appearance, the power would have always been His and He would not have been the recipient of such authority. IOW, if He were the source of authority, He could not have given it to Himself. But since He claimed it had been granted to Him, I suspect the timing of that "gift" was during the days He was in paradise.

That being said, it is my speculation (again, personal opinion and not a tenet of mine) is that a public execution and public resurrection was necessary proof of His authentic claims: the Messiah through whom the New Covenant was given (at the Last Supper) and his being the Son of God. IOW, God was giving yet another proof to the world (just like at Jesus' baptism) that Jesus was who He said He was and that His teachings while on earth was really what God had intended for all His (God's) followers to live.

Now through that death, we are taught how to live: living in forgiveness of those who hurt us, so there is an exemplary aspect as well. But I believe the main purpose was His death and resurrection authenticated Him and His teaching.

I find it interesting once Jesus make Himself known to Mary Magdalene after His resurrection, her first word to the resurrected Jesus was "Rabbi!" I also find it interesting is the disciples had crazy interest in protecting Jesus from death. It seems to me if He had taught salvation were necessary through His death and/or resurrection, He would have made them aware and they would have recognized the importance that mankind's salvation so they wouldn't attempt to thwart His death. The fact they didn't understand  its assumed importance, even though He DID tell them it was going to happen, seems to indicate they had no knowledge of any salvific importance to His death. And when Jesus at His ascension told them to teach exactly what He taught them while on earth, it seems He didn't mean for anyone to add to His gospel, shared with the disciples and through them, to the world.

So I do believe Jesus' death and resurrection was very important because it authenticated His teaching. It also meant the coming of the Holy Spirit for the establishment of His kingdom on the earth through our obedience and loyalty to Him.

So, that's a confirmation of my conclusions!?
Thank you for your frank, straight talk....I understand now why you don't know what 'clearly taught' means.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I understand now why you don't know what 'clearly taught' means.

Then please show me where Jesus "clearly taught" salvation was through faith alone in His death and resurrection. This means in context, not applying context of 'future revelation' to things He taught.

 

[Jim Jones]

Jesus must not have been God.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I understand now why you don't know what 'clearly taught' means.

Then please show me where Jesus "clearly taught" salvation was through faith alone in His death and resurrection. This means in context, not applying context of 'future revelation' to things He taught.

At this point, I am not arguing anything...simply asking IF that is what you believe.
If that is your conclusion based on your belief system.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I understand now why you don't know what 'clearly taught' means.

Then please show me where Jesus "clearly taught" salvation was through faith alone in His death and resurrection. This means in context, not applying context of 'future revelation' to things He taught.

At this point, I am not arguing anything...simply asking IF that is what you believe.
If that is your conclusion based on your belief system.

As I have stated, I am still in open mind but that is where my conclusion lies at this point. Can you please show me where Jesus "clearly taught" salvation was through faith alone in His death and resurrection? And if He did, why do you speculate that those who traveled with Him on a daily basis for 3-1/2 years didn't pick up on the sotereological nature of His death?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I understand now why you don't know what 'clearly taught' means.

Then please show me where Jesus "clearly taught" salvation was through faith alone in His death and resurrection. This means in context, not applying context of 'future revelation' to things He taught.

At this point, I am not arguing anything...simply asking IF that is what you believe.
If that is your conclusion based on your belief system.

As I have stated, I am still in open mind but that is where my conclusion lies at this point. Can you please show me where Jesus "clearly taught" salvation was through faith alone in His death and resurrection? And if He did, why do you speculate that those who traveled with Him on a daily basis for 3-1/2 years didn't pick up on the sotereological nature of His death?

Thanks for making your position so 'clearly clear'...

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I understand now why you don't know what 'clearly taught' means.

Then please show me where Jesus "clearly taught" salvation was through faith alone in His death and resurrection. This means in context, not applying context of 'future revelation' to things He taught.

At this point, I am not arguing anything...simply asking IF that is what you believe.
If that is your conclusion based on your belief system.

As I have stated, I am still in open mind but that is where my conclusion lies at this point. Can you please show me where Jesus "clearly taught" salvation was through faith alone in His death and resurrection? And if He did, why do you speculate that those who traveled with Him on a daily basis for 3-1/2 years didn't pick up on the sotereological nature of His death?

Thanks for making your position so 'clearly clear'...like that only 12 apostles thing...

Which I take to mean, you have no answer because the question was meant in sincerity.

Oh well. It was worth a shot.