Fake Media Stories

[Smellin Coffee]

I understand now why you don't know what 'clearly taught' means.

Then please show me where Jesus "clearly taught" salvation was through faith alone in His death and resurrection. This means in context, not applying context of 'future revelation' to things He taught.

At this point, I am not arguing anything...simply asking IF that is what you believe.
If that is your conclusion based on your belief system.

As I have stated, I am still in open mind but that is where my conclusion lies at this point. Can you please show me where Jesus "clearly taught" salvation was through faith alone in His death and resurrection? And if He did, why do you speculate that those who traveled with Him on a daily basis for 3-1/2 years didn't pick up on the sotereological nature of His death?

Thanks for making your position so 'clearly clear'...like that only 12 apostles thing...

Which I take to mean, you have no answer because the question was meant in sincerity.

Oh well. It was worth a shot.

Jesus was a martyr who came to set us free by His teaching!
Who, beside you, knew?
Again, we owe you a debt for setting Christianity straight after 2000 years of ignorance and deception...

Yep. Just as I thought. Not even an attempt to answer my question (at least sword did, to which I give him credit though I disagree with his conclusions), so you flip straight to sarcasm. You are only proving my point that I am right: the recorded gospel from Jesus differs than the recorded gospel about Jesus. If the New Testament consisted only of the recorded earthly teachings of Jesus, we would not have enough info to be saved by God. You believe those who choose to follow Jesus and His teachings alone, as He taught, are apostate.

Read over and over Jesus teaching His disciples as to what to do with HIS words, HIS earthly teaching. Compare that to the number of times He mentioned the cross in His sotierological messages. Then please explain why He told the disciples to parrot HIS EARTHLY TEACHING to future generations throughout the world when His teachings alone were inefficient for the salvation of mankind.

At least show some authenticity; just admit you believe the gospel of Paul over the gospel from Jesus. My sincere answers to your questions with your sarcastic replies only reveal the point. Just be authentic and publicly admit it.

 

[Jim Jones]

Wasn't Jesus a Jew who believed in atonement?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Wasn't Jesus a Jew who believed in atonement?

You simultaneously ask a key question and make an astute observation.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I understand now why you don't know what 'clearly taught' means.

Then please show me where Jesus "clearly taught" salvation was through faith alone in His death and resurrection. This means in context, not applying context of 'future revelation' to things He taught.

At this point, I am not arguing anything...simply asking IF that is what you believe.
If that is your conclusion based on your belief system.

As I have stated, I am still in open mind but that is where my conclusion lies at this point. Can you please show me where Jesus "clearly taught" salvation was through faith alone in His death and resurrection? And if He did, why do you speculate that those who traveled with Him on a daily basis for 3-1/2 years didn't pick up on the sotereological nature of His death?

Thanks for making your position so 'clearly clear'...like that only 12 apostles thing...

Which I take to mean, you have no answer because the question was meant in sincerity.

Oh well. It was worth a shot.

Jesus was a martyr who came to set us free by His teaching!
Who, beside you, knew?
Again, we owe you a debt for setting Christianity straight after 2000 years of ignorance and deception...

Yep. Just as I thought. Not even an attempt to answer my question (at least sword did, to which I give him credit though I disagree with his conclusions), so you flip straight to sarcasm. You are only proving my point that I am right: the recorded gospel from Jesus differs than the recorded gospel about Jesus. If the New Testament consisted only of the recorded earthly teachings of Jesus, we would not have enough info to be saved by God. You believe those who choose to follow Jesus and His teachings alone, as He taught, are apostate.

Read over and over Jesus teaching His disciples as to what to do with HIS words, HIS earthly teaching. Compare that to the number of times He mentioned the cross in His sotierological messages. Then please explain why He told the disciples to parrot HIS EARTHLY TEACHING to future generations throughout the world when His teachings alone were inefficient for the salvation of mankind.

At least show some authenticity; just admit you believe the gospel of Paul over the gospel from Jesus. My sincere answers to your questions with your sarcastic replies only reveal the point. Just be authentic and publicly admit it.

My sarcastic replies indicate the level of 'respect' I have for your apostate, convoluted, slippery non belief. I believe in the gospel of salvation by grace, through faith in the substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ.

You, on the other hand, actually have NO idea what you believe.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Wasn't Jesus a Jew who believed in atonement?

The Gospels don't say He did. They never mention Him going to the temple to offer sacrifice though He did go to the tabernacle to speak and pray. They do not mention Him telling those whose sins He forgave, to go offer a sacrifice to seal the deal.

What they do say is Jesus claimed extending mercy is greater than the power of sacrifice. What they do say, is Jesus overturned tables in the temple that had merchandise which contained items for sacrifice, all while quoting from Jeremiah's sermon against sacrifice (Jeremiah 7; Matthew 21:13). The "den of robbers" in Jeremiah is the Hebrew word parits which Strong's Concordance defines as "violent one". Jesus (like Jeremiah) wasn't simply upset about overpriced merchandise, but rather the violence of their actions. There is no violence in sales, but their selling was merchandise intended for violent means of destruction.

In Mark's version of the story, he concluded with:

The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard about this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him because the whole crowd was amazed at his teachings.

They didn't start looking to kill Him for what He did, but rather what He taught while driving out the merchandisers. Seems to me it was a strong probability He was preaching against atoning sacrifices.

Besides, just because the Jews "believed" something doesn't mean Jesus did. After all, He spoke against their laws of retribution which were practiced in the OT Law.

 

[Jim Jones]

Wasn't Jesus a Jew who believed in atonement?

The Gospels don't say He did. They never mention Him going to the temple to offer sacrifice though He did go to the tabernacle to speak and pray. They do not mention Him telling those whose sins He forgave, to go offer a sacrifice to seal the deal.

What they do say is Jesus claimed extending mercy is greater than the power of sacrifice. What they do say, is Jesus overturned tables in the temple that had merchandise which contained items for sacrifice, all while quoting from Jeremiah's sermon against sacrifice (Jeremiah 7; Matthew 21:13). The "den of robbers" in Jeremiah is the Hebrew word parits which Strong's Concordance defines as "violent one". Jesus (like Jeremiah) wasn't simply upset about overpriced merchandise, but rather the violence of their actions. There is no violence in sales, but their selling was merchandise intended for violent means of destruction.

In Mark's version of the story, he concluded with:

The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard about this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him because the whole crowd was amazed at his teachings.

They didn't start looking to kill Him for what He did, but rather what He taught while driving out the merchandisers. Seems to me it was a strong probability He was preaching against atoning sacrifices.

Besides, just because the Jews "believed" something doesn't mean Jesus did. After all, He spoke against their laws of retribution which were practiced in the OT Law.

You can't quote Marks words. They're not in red.

 

[Jim Jones]

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world

Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist.


Was Jesus giving false praise?

According to you, Jesus should have rebuked the baptist.

 

[Twisted]

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world

Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist.


Was Jesus giving false praise?

According to you, Jesus should have rebuked the baptist.

Don't you mean "John" was giving false praise?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world

Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist.


Was Jesus giving false praise?

According to you, Jesus should have rebuked the baptist.

Nope. A lamb is non-violent. A lamb is innocent. A lamb is humble. Isaiah prophesied a "Lamb that doesn't even open his mouth". Revelation refers to the "Lamb that was slain" not the "Lamb that was sacrificed". Innocence was murdered, the greatest of injustices. Jesus as the pure, innocent victim taught us how to respond to our enemies, even in the face of the cruelest of deaths: forgiveness and love. It is a mystery within the cross teaches us how to stand against hate without becoming hate and how to oppose evil without becoming evil ourselves.

This thought just hit me, so I added it:

Jesus demonstrated on the cross that how we live will defeat Satan.

Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

The enemy is defeated through non-violent retaliation, exemplified by the Lamb on the cross.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Wasn't Jesus a Jew who believed in atonement?

The Gospels don't say He did. They never mention Him going to the temple to offer sacrifice though He did go to the tabernacle to speak and pray. They do not mention Him telling those whose sins He forgave, to go offer a sacrifice to seal the deal.

What they do say is Jesus claimed extending mercy is greater than the power of sacrifice. What they do say, is Jesus overturned tables in the temple that had merchandise which contained items for sacrifice, all while quoting from Jeremiah's sermon against sacrifice (Jeremiah 7; Matthew 21:13). The "den of robbers" in Jeremiah is the Hebrew word parits which Strong's Concordance defines as "violent one". Jesus (like Jeremiah) wasn't simply upset about overpriced merchandise, but rather the violence of their actions. There is no violence in sales, but their selling was merchandise intended for violent means of destruction.

In Mark's version of the story, he concluded with:

The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard about this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him because the whole crowd was amazed at his teachings.

They didn't start looking to kill Him for what He did, but rather what He taught while driving out the merchandisers. Seems to me it was a strong probability He was preaching against atoning sacrifices.

Besides, just because the Jews "believed" something doesn't mean Jesus did. After all, He spoke against their laws of retribution which were practiced in the OT Law.

You can't quote Marks words. They're not in red.

Don't be silly, sure I can. You believe it to be true so it must be so the words hold YOU accountable as you hold yourself accountable to them.

Just because something isn't in red letters in the Bible doesn't mean it can't be true or support the red letters. Besides, I don't believe the manual for my refrigerator "God-breathed" but that doesn't mean I can't believe the information within could never be true.

 

[Jim Jones]

Wasn't Jesus a Jew who believed in atonement?

The Gospels don't say He did. They never mention Him going to the temple to offer sacrifice though He did go to the tabernacle to speak and pray. They do not mention Him telling those whose sins He forgave, to go offer a sacrifice to seal the deal.

What they do say is Jesus claimed extending mercy is greater than the power of sacrifice. What they do say, is Jesus overturned tables in the temple that had merchandise which contained items for sacrifice, all while quoting from Jeremiah's sermon against sacrifice (Jeremiah 7; Matthew 21:13). The "den of robbers" in Jeremiah is the Hebrew word parits which Strong's Concordance defines as "violent one". Jesus (like Jeremiah) wasn't simply upset about overpriced merchandise, but rather the violence of their actions. There is no violence in sales, but their selling was merchandise intended for violent means of destruction.

In Mark's version of the story, he concluded with:

The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard about this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him because the whole crowd was amazed at his teachings.

They didn't start looking to kill Him for what He did, but rather what He taught while driving out the merchandisers. Seems to me it was a strong probability He was preaching against atoning sacrifices.

Besides, just because the Jews "believed" something doesn't mean Jesus did. After all, He spoke against their laws of retribution which were practiced in the OT Law.

You can't quote Marks words. They're not in red.

Don't be silly, sure I can. You believe it to be true so it must be so the words hold YOU accountable as you hold yourself accountable to them.

Just because something isn't in red letters in the Bible doesn't mean it can't be true or support the red letters. Besides, I don't believe the manual for my refrigerator "God-breathed" but that doesn't mean I can't believe the information within could never be true.

Only those words you disagree with are not accurate.

 

[Jim Jones]

John the Baptist knew the meaning of a lamb. It was for sacrifice. Death. Blood. Redemption. Clearly taught to every Jew.

 

[Jim Jones]

Isaiah said,

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Jesus quoted Isaiah,

For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Isaiah said,

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

John the Baptist must've read Isaiah too,

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Isaiah said,

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Jesus quoted Isaiah,

For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Isaiah said,

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

John the Baptist must've read Isaiah too,

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth

1. Jesus? own disciples didn?t view Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy. For example, after Peter identifies Jesus as the Messiah (Matt. 16:16), he is informed that Jesus will be killed (Matt. 16:21). Peter's response: ?God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to you? (Matt. 16:22). See, also, Mk. 9:31-32; Mk. 16:10-11; Jn. 20:9.

2. Even Jesus didn?t see Isaiah 53 as crucial to his Messianic claims ? why else did He call the Jews children of the devil for not believing in Him before his resurrection (Jn. 8:39-47)?

3. Why did He later request that God ?remove this cup from me? (Mk. 14:36)? Didn?t He know that a ?removal of the cup? would violate the Christian theological understanding of Isaiah 53?

4. If John accept the Evangelical interpretation instead of the Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53, where is it indicated in Isaiah 53 that one must believe Jesus fulfilled this prophecy to receive eternal life and forgiveness from God?

Or could it be Jesus wasn't whom Isaiah was prophesying?

In original texts, there is no chapter/verse divisions. To look at the prophecy, one must see the whole, not cherry-pick versed. Most scholars believe the prophecy starts in Isaiah 52:13.

1. Is. 52:13 - ?Behold, My servant will prosper.? Israel in the singular is called God?s servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10). The idea of the Messiah is not mentioned as "My servant".

2. Is. 52:15 ? 53:1 ?So shall he (the suffering servant) startle many nations, the kings will stand speechless; For that which had not been told them they shall see and that which they had not heard shall they ponder. Who would believe what we have heard?? Quite clearly, the nations and their kings will be amazed at what happens to the suffering servant and they will say ?who would believe what we have heard??. Verse 15 tells us explicitly that it is the nations of the world who are doing the talking in Isaiah 53, whose report was hard to be believed (vs. 1).

3. Is. 53:1 ?And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?? In Isaiah (as well as other places in the OT), God?s ?arm? refers to the physical redemption of the Jewish people from the oppression of other nations. In the chapter before (Is. 52:9-10), God shows the revelation of Israel through His arm, not the Messiah. "Break forth together into singing, you waste places of Jerusalem, for the Lord has comforted his people; he has redeemed Jerusalem. The Lord has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God."

4. Is. 53:3 ?Despised and rejected of men.? While this is clearly applicable to Israel (see Isa. 60:15; Ps. 44:13-14), it cannot be reconciled with the New Testament account of Jesus. Jesus was ?praised by all? (Lk. 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Matt. 4:25). He was adored as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matt. 21:9-11). Even as He was taken to be crucified, a multitude bemoaned his fate (Lk. 23:27). Jesus had to be taken by stealth, as the rulers feared ?a riot of the people? (Mk. 14:1-2).

5. Is. 53:3 ?A man of pains and acquainted with grief (also translated 'disease').? Israel?s adversities were frequently compared to afflictions/sicknesses (Isa. 1:5-6; Jer. 10:19; Jer 30:12).

6. Is. 53:4 ?Surely our diseases he carried and our pains he bore.? In Matt. 8:17, Jesus literally fulfilled this type by his physical healing, not spiritual healing.

7. Is. 53:4 ?Yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted.? The nations said of Israel, ?It is Zion; no one cares for her? (Jer. 30:17).

8. Is. 53:5 ?But he (suffering servant) was wounded for (because of) our transgressions, he was crushed for (because of) our iniquities.? The nations thought the suffering servant was undergoing punishment from God for his sins (53:4), they now realize that the servant?s sufferings were a result of their actions and sinfulness. Similar thought is found in Jeremiah (Jer. 10:25, 50:7). Also concerning this Isaiah passage, the Christian interpretation conflicts with the Messianic prophecy of Isaiah 42:4 "He will not grow faint or be bruised till he has established justice in the earth; and the coastlands wait for his law."

9. Is. 53:7 ?He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth.? In keeping with context, the previous chapter Israel is said to have been oppressed and taken away without cause (52:4-5). This lines up with David's description of Israel as ?sheep to be slaughtered? in the midst of the unfaithful Gentile nations (44:11-22).

10. Is. 53:8 ?From dominion and judgement he was taken away.? Jesus said He never had any rights to rulership or judgement, at least not in His earthly ministry on earth. (Jn. 8:15; 12:47; 18:36).

11. Is. 53:10 ?He will prolong his days.? Not only did Jesus die young, but how could the days of God be prolonged?

12. Is. 53:12 ?Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty.? Why would Jesus need to be given a portion if He is God?

 

[prophet]

Isaiah said,

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Jesus quoted Isaiah,

For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Isaiah said,

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

John the Baptist must've read Isaiah too,

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth

1. Jesus? own disciples didn?t view Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy. For example, after Peter identifies Jesus as the Messiah (Matt. 16:16), he is informed that Jesus will be killed (Matt. 16:21). Peter's response: ?God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to you? (Matt. 16:22). See, also, Mk. 9:31-32; Mk. 16:10-11; Jn. 20:9.

2. Even Jesus didn?t see Isaiah 53 as crucial to his Messianic claims ? why else did He call the Jews children of the devil for not believing in Him before his resurrection (Jn. 8:39-47)?

3. Why did He later request that God ?remove this cup from me? (Mk. 14:36)? Didn?t He know that a ?removal of the cup? would violate the Christian theological understanding of Isaiah 53?

4. If John accept the Evangelical interpretation instead of the Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53, where is it indicated in Isaiah 53 that one must believe Jesus fulfilled this prophecy to receive eternal life and forgiveness from God?

Or could it be Jesus wasn't whom Isaiah was prophesying?

In original texts, there is no chapter/verse divisions. To look at the prophecy, one must see the whole, not cherry-pick versed. Most scholars believe the prophecy starts in Isaiah 52:13.

1. Is. 52:13 - ?Behold, My servant will prosper.? Israel in the singular is called God?s servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10). The idea of the Messiah is not mentioned as "My servant".

2. Is. 52:15 ? 53:1 ?So shall he (the suffering servant) startle many nations, the kings will stand speechless; For that which had not been told them they shall see and that which they had not heard shall they ponder. Who would believe what we have heard?? Quite clearly, the nations and their kings will be amazed at what happens to the suffering servant and they will say ?who would believe what we have heard??. Verse 15 tells us explicitly that it is the nations of the world who are doing the talking in Isaiah 53, whose report was hard to be believed (vs. 1).

3. Is. 53:1 ?And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?? In Isaiah (as well as other places in the OT), God?s ?arm? refers to the physical redemption of the Jewish people from the oppression of other nations. In the chapter before (Is. 52:9-10), God shows the revelation of Israel through His arm, not the Messiah. "Break forth together into singing, you waste places of Jerusalem, for the Lord has comforted his people; he has redeemed Jerusalem. The Lord has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God."

4. Is. 53:3 ?Despised and rejected of men.? While this is clearly applicable to Israel (see Isa. 60:15; Ps. 44:13-14), it cannot be reconciled with the New Testament account of Jesus. Jesus was ?praised by all? (Lk. 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Matt. 4:25). He was adored as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matt. 21:9-11). Even as He was taken to be crucified, a multitude bemoaned his fate (Lk. 23:27). Jesus had to be taken by stealth, as the rulers feared ?a riot of the people? (Mk. 14:1-2).

5. Is. 53:3 ?A man of pains and acquainted with grief (also translated 'disease').? Israel?s adversities were frequently compared to afflictions/sicknesses (Isa. 1:5-6; Jer. 10:19; Jer 30:12).

6. Is. 53:4 ?Surely our diseases he carried and our pains he bore.? In Matt. 8:17, Jesus literally fulfilled this type by his physical healing, not spiritual healing.

7. Is. 53:4 ?Yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted.? The nations said of Israel, ?It is Zion; no one cares for her? (Jer. 30:17).

8. Is. 53:5 ?But he (suffering servant) was wounded for (because of) our transgressions, he was crushed for (because of) our iniquities.? The nations thought the suffering servant was undergoing punishment from God for his sins (53:4), they now realize that the servant?s sufferings were a result of their actions and sinfulness. Similar thought is found in Jeremiah (Jer. 10:25, 50:7). Also concerning this Isaiah passage, the Christian interpretation conflicts with the Messianic prophecy of Isaiah 42:4 "He will not grow faint or be bruised till he has established justice in the earth; and the coastlands wait for his law."

9. Is. 53:7 ?He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth.? In keeping with context, the previous chapter Israel is said to have been oppressed and taken away without cause (52:4-5). This lines up with David's description of Israel as ?sheep to be slaughtered? in the midst of the unfaithful Gentile nations (44:11-22).

10. Is. 53:8 ?From dominion and judgement he was taken away.? Jesus said He never had any rights to rulership or judgement, at least not in His earthly ministry on earth. (Jn. 8:15; 12:47; 18:36).

11. Is. 53:10 ?He will prolong his days.? Not only did Jesus die young, but how could the days of God be prolonged?

12. Is. 53:12 ?Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty.? Why would Jesus need to be given a portion if He is God?

A shame that Philip lied to the Ethiopian Eunuch, then.

And Luke repeated the lie...

earnestly contend

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Isaiah said,

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Jesus quoted Isaiah,

For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Isaiah said,

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

John the Baptist must've read Isaiah too,

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth

1. Jesus? own disciples didn?t view Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy. For example, after Peter identifies Jesus as the Messiah (Matt. 16:16), he is informed that Jesus will be killed (Matt. 16:21). Peter's response: ?God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to you? (Matt. 16:22). See, also, Mk. 9:31-32; Mk. 16:10-11; Jn. 20:9.

2. Even Jesus didn?t see Isaiah 53 as crucial to his Messianic claims ? why else did He call the Jews children of the devil for not believing in Him before his resurrection (Jn. 8:39-47)?

3. Why did He later request that God ?remove this cup from me? (Mk. 14:36)? Didn?t He know that a ?removal of the cup? would violate the Christian theological understanding of Isaiah 53?

4. If John accept the Evangelical interpretation instead of the Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53, where is it indicated in Isaiah 53 that one must believe Jesus fulfilled this prophecy to receive eternal life and forgiveness from God?

Or could it be Jesus wasn't whom Isaiah was prophesying?

In original texts, there is no chapter/verse divisions. To look at the prophecy, one must see the whole, not cherry-pick versed. Most scholars believe the prophecy starts in Isaiah 52:13.

1. Is. 52:13 - ?Behold, My servant will prosper.? Israel in the singular is called God?s servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10). The idea of the Messiah is not mentioned as "My servant".

2. Is. 52:15 ? 53:1 ?So shall he (the suffering servant) startle many nations, the kings will stand speechless; For that which had not been told them they shall see and that which they had not heard shall they ponder. Who would believe what we have heard?? Quite clearly, the nations and their kings will be amazed at what happens to the suffering servant and they will say ?who would believe what we have heard??. Verse 15 tells us explicitly that it is the nations of the world who are doing the talking in Isaiah 53, whose report was hard to be believed (vs. 1).

3. Is. 53:1 ?And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?? In Isaiah (as well as other places in the OT), God?s ?arm? refers to the physical redemption of the Jewish people from the oppression of other nations. In the chapter before (Is. 52:9-10), God shows the revelation of Israel through His arm, not the Messiah. "Break forth together into singing, you waste places of Jerusalem, for the Lord has comforted his people; he has redeemed Jerusalem. The Lord has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God."

4. Is. 53:3 ?Despised and rejected of men.? While this is clearly applicable to Israel (see Isa. 60:15; Ps. 44:13-14), it cannot be reconciled with the New Testament account of Jesus. Jesus was ?praised by all? (Lk. 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Matt. 4:25). He was adored as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matt. 21:9-11). Even as He was taken to be crucified, a multitude bemoaned his fate (Lk. 23:27). Jesus had to be taken by stealth, as the rulers feared ?a riot of the people? (Mk. 14:1-2).

5. Is. 53:3 ?A man of pains and acquainted with grief (also translated 'disease').? Israel?s adversities were frequently compared to afflictions/sicknesses (Isa. 1:5-6; Jer. 10:19; Jer 30:12).

6. Is. 53:4 ?Surely our diseases he carried and our pains he bore.? In Matt. 8:17, Jesus literally fulfilled this type by his physical healing, not spiritual healing.

7. Is. 53:4 ?Yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted.? The nations said of Israel, ?It is Zion; no one cares for her? (Jer. 30:17).

8. Is. 53:5 ?But he (suffering servant) was wounded for (because of) our transgressions, he was crushed for (because of) our iniquities.? The nations thought the suffering servant was undergoing punishment from God for his sins (53:4), they now realize that the servant?s sufferings were a result of their actions and sinfulness. Similar thought is found in Jeremiah (Jer. 10:25, 50:7). Also concerning this Isaiah passage, the Christian interpretation conflicts with the Messianic prophecy of Isaiah 42:4 "He will not grow faint or be bruised till he has established justice in the earth; and the coastlands wait for his law."

9. Is. 53:7 ?He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth.? In keeping with context, the previous chapter Israel is said to have been oppressed and taken away without cause (52:4-5). This lines up with David's description of Israel as ?sheep to be slaughtered? in the midst of the unfaithful Gentile nations (44:11-22).

10. Is. 53:8 ?From dominion and judgement he was taken away.? Jesus said He never had any rights to rulership or judgement, at least not in His earthly ministry on earth. (Jn. 8:15; 12:47; 18:36).

11. Is. 53:10 ?He will prolong his days.? Not only did Jesus die young, but how could the days of God be prolonged?

12. Is. 53:12 ?Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty.? Why would Jesus need to be given a portion if He is God?

You really is a bibul skolar...and a theomologian!

 

[Tatterdemalion]

Isaiah said,

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Jesus quoted Isaiah,

For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Isaiah said,

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

John the Baptist must've read Isaiah too,

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth

1. Jesus? own disciples didn?t view Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy. For example, after Peter identifies Jesus as the Messiah (Matt. 16:16), he is informed that Jesus will be killed (Matt. 16:21). Peter's response: ?God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to you? (Matt. 16:22). See, also, Mk. 9:31-32; Mk. 16:10-11; Jn. 20:9.

2. Even Jesus didn?t see Isaiah 53 as crucial to his Messianic claims ? why else did He call the Jews children of the devil for not believing in Him before his resurrection (Jn. 8:39-47)?

3. Why did He later request that God ?remove this cup from me? (Mk. 14:36)? Didn?t He know that a ?removal of the cup? would violate the Christian theological understanding of Isaiah 53?

4. If John accept the Evangelical interpretation instead of the Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53, where is it indicated in Isaiah 53 that one must believe Jesus fulfilled this prophecy to receive eternal life and forgiveness from God?

Or could it be Jesus wasn't whom Isaiah was prophesying?

In original texts, there is no chapter/verse divisions. To look at the prophecy, one must see the whole, not cherry-pick versed. Most scholars believe the prophecy starts in Isaiah 52:13.

1. Is. 52:13 - ?Behold, My servant will prosper.? Israel in the singular is called God?s servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10). The idea of the Messiah is not mentioned as "My servant".

2. Is. 52:15 ? 53:1 ?So shall he (the suffering servant) startle many nations, the kings will stand speechless; For that which had not been told them they shall see and that which they had not heard shall they ponder. Who would believe what we have heard?? Quite clearly, the nations and their kings will be amazed at what happens to the suffering servant and they will say ?who would believe what we have heard??. Verse 15 tells us explicitly that it is the nations of the world who are doing the talking in Isaiah 53, whose report was hard to be believed (vs. 1).

3. Is. 53:1 ?And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?? In Isaiah (as well as other places in the OT), God?s ?arm? refers to the physical redemption of the Jewish people from the oppression of other nations. In the chapter before (Is. 52:9-10), God shows the revelation of Israel through His arm, not the Messiah. "Break forth together into singing, you waste places of Jerusalem, for the Lord has comforted his people; he has redeemed Jerusalem. The Lord has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God."

4. Is. 53:3 ?Despised and rejected of men.? While this is clearly applicable to Israel (see Isa. 60:15; Ps. 44:13-14), it cannot be reconciled with the New Testament account of Jesus. Jesus was ?praised by all? (Lk. 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Matt. 4:25). He was adored as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matt. 21:9-11). Even as He was taken to be crucified, a multitude bemoaned his fate (Lk. 23:27). Jesus had to be taken by stealth, as the rulers feared ?a riot of the people? (Mk. 14:1-2).

5. Is. 53:3 ?A man of pains and acquainted with grief (also translated 'disease').? Israel?s adversities were frequently compared to afflictions/sicknesses (Isa. 1:5-6; Jer. 10:19; Jer 30:12).

6. Is. 53:4 ?Surely our diseases he carried and our pains he bore.? In Matt. 8:17, Jesus literally fulfilled this type by his physical healing, not spiritual healing.

7. Is. 53:4 ?Yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted.? The nations said of Israel, ?It is Zion; no one cares for her? (Jer. 30:17).

8. Is. 53:5 ?But he (suffering servant) was wounded for (because of) our transgressions, he was crushed for (because of) our iniquities.? The nations thought the suffering servant was undergoing punishment from God for his sins (53:4), they now realize that the servant?s sufferings were a result of their actions and sinfulness. Similar thought is found in Jeremiah (Jer. 10:25, 50:7). Also concerning this Isaiah passage, the Christian interpretation conflicts with the Messianic prophecy of Isaiah 42:4 "He will not grow faint or be bruised till he has established justice in the earth; and the coastlands wait for his law."

9. Is. 53:7 ?He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth.? In keeping with context, the previous chapter Israel is said to have been oppressed and taken away without cause (52:4-5). This lines up with David's description of Israel as ?sheep to be slaughtered? in the midst of the unfaithful Gentile nations (44:11-22).

10. Is. 53:8 ?From dominion and judgement he was taken away.? Jesus said He never had any rights to rulership or judgement, at least not in His earthly ministry on earth. (Jn. 8:15; 12:47; 18:36).

11. Is. 53:10 ?He will prolong his days.? Not only did Jesus die young, but how could the days of God be prolonged?

12. Is. 53:12 ?Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty.? Why would Jesus need to be given a portion if He is God?

You really is a bibul skolar...and a theomologian!

Reading this reply makes me yearn doubly so for the Second Coming.

 

[Jim Jones]

Clearly, Smelling doesn't believe Jesus was God.

 

[Jim Jones]

Clearly, Smelling doesn't believe Jesus was God.

And with that, I shall step aside from this topic.

 

[sword]

Clearly, Smelling doesn't believe Jesus was God.

Smelling, what is it then that you are relying on to get you to Heaven?

If you are trusting in your good works or anything else besides the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross to get you to Heaven I?m afraid it will not end well.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Romans 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Acts 4:12  Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

If you are right, then I should be ok because I have attempted to live a good life. I have shown charity to the poor, clothed those who had no clothes, fed many who were hungry, did many wonderful works in his name  and on and on. I can only hope it was enough & I could only hope we will be together in Heaven.

Matthew 7:21-23  Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Good works have their place in the Christian life, but not in salvation.

Ephesians 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
If I am right, based on other verses in the Bible, both of our fates will be sealed at death and I will be in Heaven and you will spend eternity in never ending torment that was meant for the Devil and his angels.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
Matt.13:50, Matt 25:30, Revelations 12:20