Fallen Pastors

Sherryh said:
When pastors fall they don't take just themselves but many people surrounding them. If what happened at fbc and I was a new christian I would have left and never looked back. I understand why !! I don't trust pastors they are not God...PS I'm not perfect
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I know how you feel. I don't trust many of the pastors these days...many, I find, have ulterior motives, and aren't in the ministry for the right reasons. I've tried time and again with my own pastor, to trust him and his leadership, but, I've come to the point that I find this is nearly impossible. My wife and I are currently looking for another church...one that has a pastor with a heart for soul winning, for the Lord and HIS leadership, and for the sound principles that I was taught growing up, not making excuses why we should be growing closer to the worldly system. I'm looking into an old FFF poster who is a pastor in my area (he was on the old FFF way back in the early 2000s...Ron Byers). He grew up in Franklin Road Baptist Church and is the pastor of a small SBC church here in our area. He still stands for something. So far, my wife hasn't been too enthused about going to his church to visit, but, I believe she's about had enough to finally agree to visit.
 
AverageJoe said:
I know how you feel. I don't trust many of the pastors these days...many, I find, have ulterior motives, and aren't in the ministry for the right reasons. I've tried time and again with my own pastor, to trust him and his leadership, but, I've come to the point that I find this is nearly impossible. My wife and I are currently looking for another church...one that has a pastor with a heart for soul winning, for the Lord and HIS leadership, and for the sound principles that I was taught growing up, not making excuses why we should be growing closer to the worldly system. I'm looking into an old FFF poster who is a pastor in my area (he was on the old FFF way back in the early 2000s...Ron Byers). He grew up in Franklin Road Baptist Church and is the pastor of a small SBC church here in our area. He still stands for something. So far, my wife hasn't been too enthused about going to his church to visit, but, I believe she's about had enough to finally agree to visit.
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Tony, with your background and all, if Ron Byers is someone you can work with, you should go ALL IN and do what you can to support this Church. Perhaps first the two of you should sit down for coffee and discuss passions, concerns, and burdens each of you have. I believe the #1 thing we need in a church is sound expository teaching and preaching minus any agenda and minus any "Slick Marketing Campaigns" to lure in certain demographics or whatever. The primary concern needs to be to FEED THE FLOCK OF GOD and the end goal is that CHRIST IS GLORIFIED by this assembly. Aside from this, everything else will take care of itself and the Lord will add to the church daily such as should be saved.

I believe that God has placed me in such a congregation now and it would be grossly understated saying it has been many years coming! Praying for you and Vivian!
 
Baptist Renegade said:
Tony, with your background and all, if Ron Byers is someone you can work with, you should go ALL IN and do what you can to support this Church. Perhaps first the two of you should sit down for coffee and discuss passions, concerns, and burdens each of you have. I believe the #1 thing we need in a church is sound expository teaching and preaching minus any agenda and minus any "Slick Marketing Campaigns" to lure in certain demographics or whatever. The primary concern needs to be to FEED THE FLOCK OF GOD and the end goal is that CHRIST IS GLORIFIED by this assembly. Aside from this, everything else will take care of itself and the Lord will add to the church daily such as should be saved.

I believe that God has placed me in such a congregation now and it would be grossly understated saying it has been many years coming! Praying for you and Vivian!
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Thanks, Ray. Vivian and I have talked to Brother Ron a couple of times, but, not in person. We plan on setting up such a meeting within the next month or so. Our current church seems to be on a slide into "left field" and we don't want to be there when they finally make it. I can understand why some of the older people who have been there for 50+ years want to stay. It's not easy to change at this late stage in the game. But, the younger people are already leaving and going to churches that have already hit the far-left ideology. Some are staying and trying to help push this church that way. Seven years ago, this wasn't the case. This church was pretty sound then. And, we had some pretty good music and preaching. The preaching is still good, but, there's something missing at times. Substance. And the SS material from Lifeway is getting to be superficial and useless. I've made mention of this and been made to look like a troublemaker. Oh well...so be it. Guess that's what I get for standing up for what's right and Scriptural.
 
AverageJoe said:
I can understand why some of the older people who have been there for 50+ years want to stay. It's not easy to change at this late stage in the game.
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My grandparents left their Southern Baptist church while in their mid 80s for this reason. Age is no excuse for what’s right vs wrong.
 
AverageJoe said:
Thanks, Ray. Vivian and I have talked to Brother Ron a couple of times, but, not in person. We plan on setting up such a meeting within the next month or so. Our current church seems to be on a slide into "left field" and we don't want to be there when they finally make it. I can understand why some of the older people who have been there for 50+ years want to stay. It's not easy to change at this late stage in the game. But, the younger people are already leaving and going to churches that have already hit the far-left ideology. Some are staying and trying to help push this church that way. Seven years ago, this wasn't the case. This church was pretty sound then. And, we had some pretty good music and preaching. The preaching is still good, but, there's something missing at times. Substance. And the SS material from Lifeway is getting to be superficial and useless. I've made mention of this and been made to look like a troublemaker. Oh well...so be it. Guess that's what I get for standing up for what's right and Scriptural.
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Too bad the pastor couldn't be more like John MacArthur and HELD THE LINE on sound biblical teaching and preaching! If people want to move out to left field, let THEM GO! "I came here to stay..." Perhaps the problem was there was no one standing in the pastor's corner encouraging him to stay the course?

I am seeing many of the deficiencies in the SS materials. Much of this can be bolstered up by a good bible teacher who actually studies and prepares on his own? This is what I do whenever I teach in our Sunday School hour. I may stick to the "Subject Matter" but come up with my own outline and notes and basically pitch the SS book off to the side. We are currently going through the "Attributes of God" and are using material from Regular Baptist Press which is seriously wanting and pretty much insults the intelligence of anyone educated beyond the 8th grade! I looked over it with our Sunday School superintendent and we both agree. I see a need for some real and substantive SS material and may just do something about it!
 
HukNduck said:
My grandparents left their Southern Baptist church while in their mid 80s for this reason. Age is no excuse for what’s right vs wrong.
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I agree. And I never said it wasn't wrong. I said I could understand their staying after so many years in the same church. Change is never easy at that age, especially when someone remembers how it was and still has hope that their church will go back to yesteryear. It usually doesn't happen, but, hope springs eternal with some.
 
Baptist Renegade said:
Too bad the pastor couldn't be more like John MacArthur and HELD THE LINE on sound biblical teaching and preaching! If people want to move out to left field, let THEM GO! "I came here to stay..." Perhaps the problem was there was no one standing in the pastor's corner encouraging him to stay the course?

I am seeing many of the deficiencies in the SS materials. Much of this can be bolstered up by a good bible teacher who actually studies and prepares on his own? This is what I do whenever I teach in our Sunday School hour. I may stick to the "Subject Matter" but come up with my own outline and notes and basically pitch the SS book off to the side. We are currently going through the "Attributes of God" and are using material from Regular Baptist Press which is seriously wanting and pretty much insults the intelligence of anyone educated beyond the 8th grade! I looked over it with our Sunday School superintendent and we both agree. I see a need for some real and substantive SS material and may just do something about it!
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Our SS teacher, God bless him, is always bolstering the material, and he does quite a good job. That's one reason we started going back to SS. But, of late, it seems that even he has grown weary of trying to keep things informative, character-building, and full of thought for the class. Many just don't care anymore and come and go as they please. He's our deacon, and he does a good job of presenting concerns to the other deacons. But, many of them are much older and don't want to "rock the boat," when it comes to things, and the other group of deacons is much younger and love the modern, contemporary influx into the church, and they show it with their willingness to let the church slide left. I hate this, but, I can't do much about it. I'm in the minority and branded already.
 
AverageJoe said:
I agree. And I never said it wasn't wrong. I said I could understand their staying after so many years in the same church. Change is never easy at that age, especially when someone remembers how it was and still has hope that their church will go back to yesteryear. It usually doesn't happen, but, hope springs eternal with some.
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It was a difficult decision and they briefly flirted with the idea of no longer making the effort to find a new church in their mid 80s, but they decided it was the right thing to do as long as they had the health to drive and walk.
 
AverageJoe said:
Our SS teacher, God bless him, is always bolstering the material, and he does quite a good job. That's one reason we started going back to SS. But, of late, it seems that even he has grown weary of trying to keep things informative, character-building, and full of thought for the class. Many just don't care anymore and come and go as they please. He's our deacon, and he does a good job of presenting concerns to the other deacons. But, many of them are much older and don't want to "rock the boat," when it comes to things, and the other group of deacons is much younger and love the modern, contemporary influx into the church, and they show it with their willingness to let the church slide left. I hate this, but, I can't do much about it. I'm in the minority and branded already.
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By a "Modern, Contemporary Influx," do you mean moving towards the likes of Andy Stanley or Steven Furtick? I would not be going down without a fight! Everyone in the Church knows where I stand and the pastors and elders pretty much have my back as I have theirs.
 
HukNduck said:
My grandparents left their Southern Baptist church while in their mid 80s for this reason. Age is no excuse for what’s right vs wrong.
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I would bet they did this for the sake of their kids and grandkids. This is my primary motivation.
 
Baptist Renegade said:
I looked over it with our Sunday School superintendent and we both agree. I see a need for some real and substantive SS material and may just do something about it!
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It was this very reason in 1995 that we started www.freesundayschoollessons.org

Check it out! Free to download and freely adaptable for your own needs.
 
HukNduck said:
It was a difficult decision and they briefly flirted with the idea of no longer making the effort to find a new church in their mid 80s, but they decided it was the right thing to do as long as they had the health to drive and walk.
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It's a personal decision, and I'm not going to tell someone much older than myself that they need to get their act together. They answer for THEIR actions or lack thereof, and I answer for my own.
 
FSSL said:
Keep in mind, this is Calvinistic and uses modern versions. Some ideas in the curriculum is more IFB than I would be today
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I have had some good conversations with some of our elders who know my Calvinistic leanings. I once watched one get into hot water for even invoking the "C" word in a Sunday School situation. I talked to him afterwards bringing to the attention that I often teach things that are overtly Calvinistic without ever bringing up the "C" word and most say "AMEN! GOOD PREACHING!" because I am careful to ensure that what I am saying is, first and foremost, firmly rooted and grounded in scripture.
 
FSSL said:
It was this very reason in 1995 that we started www.freesundayschoollessons.org

Check it out! Free to download and freely adaptable for your own needs.
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I forgot about this site. I should have given it to our SS teacher, though I don't believe he would have used it. He's going to follow the church's recommendation of using the watered-down junk from Lifeway. UGH!
 
Bob Jones V said:
I once had a young couple from a Calvary Chapel church visit. They loved the music and preaching and smaller setting. After a few weeks, he called me and said, "Are you a Calvinist?" I said, well, that depends on how you define a Calvinist. And I started asking him simple questions, like "Can a person lose their salvation? Who is the ultimate decision maker in salvation? Is God in control of the universe? After a good hour conversation, I concluded that he was already a calvinist, but just hated it because Chuck Smith hated it. They stayed and he ultimately realized, even though I never did a seminar on the 5 points, that he was a calvinist, and a well-versed one.
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Calvary Chapels are more "Baptist" than many of them care to admit.

CCs pretty much towed the line while Pastor Chuck was alive. When he passed and the organization split, there wasn't much change at our church. In fact, I was not aware of the rifts in the organization nor of Greg Laurie joining the SBC until very recently. (Our pastor was on staff at Greg's church until the mid 90s).

When I asked our pastor about all that went down, he said he was aware of what was going on but chose not to talk about it because he wanted us to continue what we have always been doing which was focusing on the Word. He said a lot of things happened that he wouldn't have endorsed but that didn't change our mission here in the valley.
 
Bob Jones V said:
I once had a young couple from a Calvary Chapel church visit. They loved the music and preaching and smaller setting. After a few weeks, he called me and said, "Are you a Calvinist?" I said, well, that depends on how you define a Calvinist. And I started asking him simple questions, like "Can a person lose their salvation? Who is the ultimate decision maker in salvation? Is God in control of the universe? After a good hour conversation, I concluded that he was already a calvinist, but just hated it because Chuck Smith hated it. They stayed and he ultimately realized, even though I never did a seminar on the 5 points, that he was a calvinist, and a well-versed one.
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So long as Chuck Smith (as well as other CC pastors) didn't trash talk Calvinism, I have never found anything of which I would disagree with him! I have always loved their expository preaching and CC is the first place where I truly received exposure to such.

I still do not like their polity though and have heard many stories about pastors being "dictatorial" in their approach.
 
Bob Jones V said:
What is their polity?
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Pretty much a "Single Pastor Rule." Some have referred to this as the "Moses Model." According to my understanding, there is a "Board of Trustees" who handles the business side of things but the Pastor is the "Man in Charge."
 
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