For CCM? Please convince us FROM Scripture alone

[Biker]

More of my favorite CCM!!  8)

Angels....that's a biblical truth eh?

Aerosmith - Angel!

 

[Holy Mole]

In summary, it's my opinion that to demand scripture to prove one's preference, on any issue, one way or another, is at best, silly.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

No. They need to grow. My only concern with them beyond salvation is that they are not morally disqualified from membership. For instance living with a boyfriend or girlfriend.

And this has what to do with CCM?  ???

This a long conversation that stemmed from new members of a church wanting to change the music.

Only fornicators want to use CCM?  ???

Still not seeing the link.

http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/for-ccm-please-convince-us-from-scripture-alone/msg70996/#msg70996

Read the thread. The recap is we were discussing the right of members coming into a church and wanting to change the music,and it morphed into a rabbit trail about membership.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

In summary it's my opinion that to demand scripture to prove one's preference, on any issue, one way or another, is at best, silly.

You are calling music a preference, while I see it as a conviction based upon principles.

 

[Holy Mole]

In summary it's my opinion that to demand scripture to prove one's preference, on any issue, one way or another, is at best, silly.

You are calling music a preference, while I see it as a conviction based upon principles.

though I tend to agree more with your position on the topic I see it as a preference. If it is a conviction, the burden of scripture would apply or should.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

In summary it's my opinion that to demand scripture to prove one's preference, on any issue, one way or another, is at best, silly.

You are calling music a preference, while I see it as a conviction based upon principles.

though I tend to agree more with your position on the topic I see it as a preference. If it is a conviction, the burden of scripture would apply or should.

I believe it does. I am planning a post or thread to deal with the issue. Relegating myelf to short posts here for a bit.

 

[subllibrm]

............

I have yet to see anyone on the "pro CCM" side make any kind of demand that the "anti" crowd change anything in their personal use or enjoyment of music; corporately in worship or personally in private.

............

then you obviously haven;t been paying attention.......... coz form my perspective that;s been admins whole purpose for continuing to hammer away in this thread.... he demands that we either provide explicit scripture against ccm that is worded to his liking to show why we don;t like it.... or else submit to being called ignorant.. biblically illiterate..... or sit by while he.. (under the name of admin)... twists what we said and makes deliberate misrepresentations about the path this thread has taken.........

why else would he be going to such extremes if he wasn;t on the offensive trying to change what someone else believes or force them to accept his views?...

Interestingly, you are the one who usually plays the "used for worship in church card" first. In my opinion that is a distraction from the question. You admit that you listen to many other kinds of music but insist that CCM be judged through the filter of church use. Every time you demand that the issue is about church use, you muddy the waters.

I like the song "Jesus Freak" posted earlier but would not see a place for it in a church service. ...........

so why is it ok for you to consider a certain ccm song not fit for use in church.... but if i say that about a another ccm song i;m muddying the waters?...........by the way.... can you provide specific scripture to admins liking that will convince him it;s ok for you to not use that song in your church?........

Whoosh!!! I "like" the Gettys in church. I wouldn't "care for" DC talk and "jesus Freak" in that setting. I have expressed my opinion. I have not imposed it upon anyone.

I made the comparison to show that CCM is a bottomless pit of non-definition. Your argument is ALWAYS about it's use in church. IP and Frag insist that it is always wrong in any context in any place for any purpose.

BTW could you do  us a favor and go back, say one month, and share the titles of all the music your church has used for corporate worship? I would be interested to know if any evil CCM snuck it's way in and you didn't even notice. The reason I suspect that to be a possibility is that the examples you cite of inappropriate CCM songs are not normally used congregationally in my experience. Remember that CCM is so broad that it includes "In Christ Alone" by the Gettys and the veggies tales "Oh No, What We Gonna Do?" (both biblical songs BTW).

And to the part changed to red, that is not what he has asked for. You keep flipping the question. NO ONE has said that you must use any particular song in your worship service. If you don't like it don't use it.

The proof is in how you reframe the question (see the green text). It isn't about "liking" it. I don't like polka music and don't need a scriptural basis for my taste in music. It is about their (and too many others to bother mentioning) claim that all CCM is always inappropriate for Christians. Show scripture to prove that. That is what he is asking for.

The issue is that folks like Frag and IP are convinced that they carry the oracles of musical perfection and that we are all to conform to them. Admin is asking them scripture declaring a particular style off limits?

And I notice that they are content to let you take the bulk of the heat in this because they know that they are only expressing their preference/opinion and have no biblical ground to make such universally applicable to you or me. Why you insist on making it personal is beyond me. Admin has not declared that you must do anything while IP and Frag have clearly declared what may not be done. Why don't you take them to task for their bossiness/nosiness in how other churches worship? This whole conversation is borne out of the mindset of guys like them who feel they have the right and responsibility to tell other churches how to utilize music. Admin says keep your nose out of my business and you take that to mean he is all up in your grill? I honestly don't see how yo make this leap. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

I've enjoyed aleshanee handing folks their hats on this one, and particularly flushing out the inconsistencies of admin as he went trolling with chum.

Her use of Scripture was profound. Although she is unable to recognize clears biblical themes in Christian songs, she has a profound ability to see Buddhism and Muslimism.

So... what are my inconsistencies?

holy mole, aleshanee, and several others have listed them several times, but you do an amazing job of ducking and diving.  I'd quit while you're behind if I were you.

 

[subllibrm]

In summary, it's my opinion that to demand scripture to prove one's preference, on any issue, one way or another, is at best, silly.

It is my opinion that those who insist that their preference has some universal application to all Christians without providing biblical support are, at best, ... sorry can't think of anything good enough to qualify as "best".  ;D

 

[subllibrm]

No. They need to grow. My only concern with them beyond salvation is that they are not morally disqualified from membership. For instance living with a boyfriend or girlfriend.

And this has what to do with CCM?  ???

This a long conversation that stemmed from new members of a church wanting to change the music.

Only fornicators want to use CCM?  ???

Still not seeing the link.

http://www.fundamentalforums.org/the-fighting-forum/for-ccm-please-convince-us-from-scripture-alone/msg70996/#msg70996

Read the thread. The recap is we were discussing the right of members coming into a church and wanting to change the music,and it morphed into a rabbit trail about membership.

I have read the entire thread. And you are the one who tied the idea of a new member wanting to change the music to the example of a couple living in an immoral situation.

 

[ALAYMAN]

The issue is that folks like Frag and IP are convinced that they carry the oracles of musical perfection and that we are all to conform to them. Admin is asking them scripture declaring a particular style off limits?

I think the issue of music often can come down to preference, but those who prefer CCM that mimics rock and roll have the wrong preference.


On a more serious note, I attended a Contemporary church service at a Baptist mega-church while on vacation a week ago.  The music was often deafening, and raucous.  I doubt that is God honoring, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it sinful, so at the end of the day I say to each his own, but I get the feel that those who have a personality more inclined to be emotionally driven are more apt to be persuaded by the influence of the genre generally known as CCM. 

 

[subllibrm]

If it is a conviction, the burden of scripture would apply or should.

^this^

This is exactly what has been requested. Convince (convict) me from scripture that "In Christ Alone" violates some scriptural principle. Since the Gettys are considered CCM by all parties and since CCM is claimed to violate biblical principles, then there should be no trouble in articulating why a good bible believing church should be teaching their people to never listen to, or sing "In Christ Alone".

 

[subllibrm]

The issue is that folks like Frag and IP are convinced that they carry the oracles of musical perfection and that we are all to conform to them. Admin is asking them scripture declaring a particular style off limits?

I think the issue of music often can come down to preference, but those who prefer CCM that mimics rock and roll have the wrong preference.


On a more serious note, I attended a Contemporary church service at a Baptist mega-church while on vacation a week ago.  The music was often deafening, and raucous.  I doubt that is God honoring, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it sinful, so at the end of the day I say to each his own, but I get the feel that those who have a personality more inclined to be emotionally driven are more apt to be persuaded by the influence of the genre generally known as CCM.

I personally don't "like" big or loud in a worship service. That is why I choose to attend the church that I do and seek similar to visit when away from home. I would not even suggest that anyone else has any obligation to do as I do.

My tastes and preferences for personal enjoyment are a whole nuther conversaton. 

 

[Ransom]

and as his good buddy .."moderator in tow".. your opinion means less than nothing to me....

If this is supposed to imply "shuddup and get out of my thread," it's not going to work.

 

[Ransom]

In summary, it's my opinion that to demand scripture to prove one's preference, on any issue, one way or another, is at best, silly.

Except, of course, that people like IP are not claiming it's a "preference," but an actual sin.

Demanding scripture to prove that something isn't silly. It should be mandatory.

 

[Bruh]

... he demands that we either provide explicit scripture against ccm that is worded to his liking to show why we don;t like it....

Since you have not supplied any Scripture... your point is absurd

Can you supply any Scripture that says smoking Marijuana is sin, if not your point is absurd. 

See how that works?

 

[Bruh]

....by the way.... can you provide specific scripture to admins liking that will convince him it;s ok for you to not use that song in your church?........[/font][/size][/color]

Great question! Does the song have immorality in it? If so, no need to post verses... I have plenty of those.

MJ's song Man in the mirror.  Prove that it has immorality, therefore according to ur logic it is a song that one can worship God. 

 

[Smellin Coffee]

On a more serious note, I attended a Contemporary church service at a Baptist mega-church while on vacation a week ago.  The music was often deafening, and raucous.  I doubt that is God honoring, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it sinful, so at the end of the day I say to each his own, but I get the feel that those who have a personality more inclined to be emotionally driven are more apt to be persuaded by the influence of the genre generally known as CCM.

Exactly. Worship itself is intrinsic and people's worship "triggers" vary based on their personal tastes. For me, I do not find paintings (Bible or otherwise) as being helpful in worship. Bob Jones University has a beautiful art gallery and others who go there, do find the ability to see God through the art. That doesn't make either of us wrong. I know it may sound weird but sometimes the greatest time of worship in my life is hiking up mountain trails. Others would never find worship in that. That's OK. Some can worship while reading some books while others "don't get it".

We are lucky in this country to have the freedom to find various venues in which to worship corporately. A friend of mine spent a couple years in China and their "worship time" had to be complete silence. They would sit for hours in someone's living room and each pray silently. I'm thankful that we don't need to do that but can be expressive and have the opportunity to see God and worship Him through a myriad of venues.

A couple years ago, I attended a service at Elevation Church. They were doing a tribute to (IIRC) Jimi Hendrix and Aerosmith and their band played a couple of their songs. Most definitely not my cup of tea nor would it be something I would promote. Regardless, there were people there that could (and did) worship in that setting.

A former pastor of mine would regularly go to a Catholic church (empty most of the time) during the weekdays and pray because the venue itself to the quiet and he was able to reflect on God and pray. He didn't worship the idols nor believe in the power of candles or anything but could sit in a pew by himself and meet God.

If a church wants to have any style of music, the worshipers who can find worship in that style of music will attend, whether it be CCM or hymns. Worship is personal and specific to each individual so no singular worship style or song choice is one-size-fits-all.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

On a more serious note, I attended a Contemporary church service at a Baptist mega-church while on vacation a week ago.  The music was often deafening, and raucous.  I doubt that is God honoring, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it sinful, so at the end of the day I say to each his own, but I get the feel that those who have a personality more inclined to be emotionally driven are more apt to be persuaded by the influence of the genre generally known as CCM.

Exactly. Worship itself is intrinsic and people's worship "triggers" vary based on their personal tastes.

Scripture and verse please

 

[subllibrm]

On a more serious note, I attended a Contemporary church service at a Baptist mega-church while on vacation a week ago.  The music was often deafening, and raucous.  I doubt that is God honoring, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it sinful, so at the end of the day I say to each his own, but I get the feel that those who have a personality more inclined to be emotionally driven are more apt to be persuaded by the influence of the genre generally known as CCM.

Exactly. Worship itself is intrinsic and people's worship "triggers" vary based on their personal tastes.

Scripture and verse please

You first.  ;D